The Majority Of University Degrees Condemn Graduates To Menial Jobs “Serving Coffee In Starbucks", According To A Leading Businessman

[Guest The Relaxation Suite]

You are just unhappy about how they become the best-educated in the first place.

Yes this is my point, but my argument is not limited to that and there is much more to it than simply education quality. I recall the case of two sixth forms I am aware of. One was headed by a very senior and highly regarded Oxford man, and the other by Joe Bloggs. The former had a higher percentage of A grade students accepted into Oxford than the latter. This happened over several years back in the mid 1990s.

You cannot argue that "under the counter" stuff does not go on when it comes to getting into Oxbridge because it does. The power of going to these institutions is evident when we see the percentage of MPs that went there (nearly half went to the top 13 unis and over quarter went to just two unis, Oxbridge). In fact of the Conservatives, a massive 63% went to the "Sutton 13". We are talking about real power issues here. The corruption runs deep.

[Guest Noodle]

I'm saying any programming language is equal to any other if you know what programming is about. The same with human language, just way simpler. Why program in the 21st century version of setting bits with a paperclip between pins when there's a more readbale alternative?

"I would prefer my Programmers to know what they are doing, not just claim "the mishmash of two letter variables" is something they don't understand"

That's what documentation and commenting are for, but if you don't use two letter variables and use meaningful names you're halfway there already

I earn a billion pounds a year.

Reckon most of you'll be saying this in a few years . . . and complaining about how it won't pay the council tax bill.

[Frank Hovis]

Yes this is my point, but my argument is not limited to that and there is much more to it than simply education quality. I recall the case of two sixth forms I am aware of. One was headed by a very senior and highly regarded Oxford man, and the other by Joe Bloggs. The former had a higher percentage of A grade students accepted into Oxford than the latter. This happened over several years back in the mid 1990s.

You cannot argue that "under the counter" stuff does not go on when it comes to getting into Oxbridge because it does. The power of going to these institutions is evident when we see the percentage of MPs that went there (nearly half went to the top 13 unis and over quarter went to just two unis, Oxbridge). In fact of the Conservatives, a massive 63% went to the "Sutton 13". We are talking about real power issues here. The corruption runs deep.

I have no idea how they manage to choose with the mickey mouse A levels these days, possibly the noddiness of these examples has swung the pendulum away from the competitive entry it used to be.

I went to Cambridge from a comprehensive. Of all the many undergrads I knew there only a couple would I rate as other than extremely clever; and they made up for that by working incredibly hard. Your idea of the posh thickie being there above the bright oik wasn't true then. And I speak as a bright oik.

[Tiger Woods?]

.

The problem with this sort of professional qualification inflation is it winds up with a degree in turd stabbing from the university of east englia just to clean toilets which you point out but also that all those who completely wasted their time getting the qualifications will rise up and defend them if it's suggested they are removed going forward.

I would have you know that after only 8 years I was a managing a team of 3 other turd stabbers, none of whom had a degree is sewage management. My understanding of Roman waste disposal systems proved directly applicable to Britain's public toilets.

[ZeroSumGame]

This is a brilliant thread. Just wish I was watching from the start .....

[Tiger Woods?]

I'm talking about grads with good degrees from places like Imperial and UCL - it's surprising how poorly many of them perform in these situations.

Interviewed a guy with a BA from Cambridge, D.Phil. from Oxford and was a JRF all in computer science a few years ago. He didn't feel confident enough in his programming skills to code for our tin pot company. Whilst a computer science education is not identical with being a code monkey, you'd have thought that being able to code well in at least one language would be a reasonable expectation of a graduate, in the same way you would expect an English Literature grad to be able to write good English?! Very strange.

[Guest The Relaxation Suite]

I have no idea how they manage to choose with the mickey mouse A levels these days, possibly the noddiness of these examples has swung the pendulum away from the competitive entry it used to be.

I went to Cambridge from a comprehensive. Of all the many undergrads I knew there only a couple would I rate as other than extremely clever; and they made up for that by working incredibly hard. Your idea of the posh thickie being there above the bright oik wasn't true then. And I speak as a bright oik.

I have never argued that bright oiks never got in, because of course they did, and do and will. I am certainly arguing that nepotism plays a role in getting certain people into certain colleges, because it did and it does. That's my whole argument on this subject. I also do not agree with filling up these colleges with stupid oiks as is being attempted by the socialists.

In Tecumsehland, all comprehensives would be terminated, and the system would return to a simple bilateral model of vocational tech colleges and grammar schools. My life was effectively ruined by a very poor comrehensive with a large constituent of its pupils coming from sink estates. We would all have been better off in life if they had been able to beat each other up in a plumbing college and I had been able to learn my subjects at a grammar school.

All children at age 11 wqould be required to sit an exam. We'll call it the 11 Plus, and this would determine which path they would travel down. Aware that some children are slower developers, another chance at 13 to switch from college would be offered, and a final chance at 15. As each type of school would offer the same subjects but in a different balance.

The comrephensive experiment ruined a lot of lives (clearly not yours, but some comps were better than others) and is just another item to throw on the ever-growing pile of socialist failures.

Frank, I add in edit that I just talked to my wife, who went to a grammar school, and she tells me that the previous system actually incorporated a 13 Plus, which one of her cousins took advantage of, so the system worked as well as I can think of now, before it was destroyed by the comp system.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Tecumseh

[ZeroSumGame]

Java or Visual Basic would certainly be flavour of the month and you can learn them out of a book in about week if that. .

You reckon you can learn Java in less than a week ? And feel confident enough to go and pick up on someone else's code and run with it ?

[david m]

I have to agree with Frank Hovis. Having gone to Oxbridge from an inner city comprehensive, I don't really remember any "posh thickie" on the Math Tripos or Natural Sciences Tripos. I can't speak for other courses in Humanities, Arts etc but in the sciences i found myself rubbing shoulders with a lot of students, many from private schools and some from state schools, but nearly all of them either very bright or very motivated or both. At post grad level i met many other students from many other UK unis who were just as bright and motivated.

The idea that I could have experienced and achieved what i have without going to uni to me is plain nonsense. If i had stayed at home i would be in a dead end job (as all my cousins now do) or have a criminal record (like one in three of the boys in my class). There is no way I could have picked up the specialist knowledge "on the job" or been offered the same opportunities from a career or travel perspective. Most importantly university allowed me to meet pretty foreign girls who didn't find a nerdy mathematician/physicist a turn off like the British girls did!

My child is only 1 so a bit young to go to uni yet!. But if she was 17 and was worried about whether £25k of debt was worth it I would say yes. It might not be the right decision for everyone but £25k is not that much over a 50 year working life ... its a lot less than a £150k mortgage for example.

[Injin]

I have to agree with Frank Hovis. Having gone to Oxbridge from an inner city comprehensive, I don't really remember any "posh thickie" on the Math Tripos or Natural Sciences Tripos. I can't speak for other courses in Humanities, Arts etc but in the sciences i found myself rubbing shoulders with a lot of students, many from private schools and some from state schools, but nearly all of them either very bright or very motivated or both. At post grad level i met many other students from many other UK unis who were just as bright and motivated.

The idea that I could have experienced and achieved what i have without going to uni to me is plain nonsense. If i had stayed at home i would be in a dead end job (as all my cousins now do) or have a criminal record (like one in three of the boys in my class). There is no way I could have picked up the specialist knowledge "on the job" or been offered the same opportunities from a career or travel perspective. Most importantly university allowed me to meet pretty foreign girls who didn't find a nerdy mathematician/physicist a turn off like the British girls did!

My child is only 1 so a bit young to go to uni yet!. But if she was 17 and was worried about whether £25k of debt was worth it I would say yes. It might not be the right decision for everyone but £25k is not that much over a 50 year working life ... its a lot less than a £150k mortgage for example.

Have you ever seen Chomsky on how education and media (and other) institutions keep churning out the same like mninded people?

Might be worth your time.

Basically, you have to hold the view you do or you'd never have got in.

[david m]

So you think there is no role for universities?

How are you going to train up all the scientists without universities? Who is going to do the research?

If my daughter wants in the future to become say a molecular biologist, I'm not sure how she does that without going through a rigorous educational system. It very hard to self teach these things (not impossible but much much time consuming).

Also university isn't about getting a job ... thats the wrong approach. For me it was about gaining self-confidence, testing my intellect versus others. My mum and dad wanted me to do engineering or computer science because that was a "practical subject that would get me a job". I just wanted to do the most abstract subject there was ... the jobs offers that came later were not planned.

University isn't the right place for everybody but for many its great ... I don't understand the total negativity?

Edited March 13, 2010 by david m

[Injin]

So you think there is no role for universities?

How are you going to train up all the scientists without universities? Who is going to do the research?

University isn't the right place for everybody but for some it is ... I don't understand the total negativity?

Depends what you mean.

Is there a place for keeping people out of doing a job by demanding that they first waste years of their youth obtaining a piece of paper that grants permission to do something anyone can by default?

Nope, never.

Is there a place for likeminded people to get together and thrash out issues, learn from each other on a voluntary basis and investigate the truth of things>

Always.

[Boom Boom]

Depends what you mean.

Is there a place for keeping people out of doing a job by demanding that they first waste years of their youth obtaining a piece of paper that grants permission to do something anyone can by default?

Nope, never.

Is there a place for likeminded people to get together and thrash out issues, learn from each other on a voluntary basis and investigate the truth of things>

Always.

So you wouldn't mind having open heart surgery performed by someone that was just giving it a go? I mean they might screw your surgery up, but I'm sure with enough victims patients they'd get it right eventually.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Boom Boom

[Tiger Woods?]

I have to agree with Frank Hovis. Having gone to Oxbridge from an inner city comprehensive, I don't really remember any "posh thickie" on the Math Tripos or Natural Sciences Tripos. I can't speak for other courses in Humanities, Arts etc but in the sciences i found myself rubbing shoulders with a lot of students, many from private schools and some from state schools, but nearly all of them either very bright or very motivated or both. At post grad level i met many other students from many other UK unis who were just as bright and motivated.

I only met one true thickie during my time there. He wasn't posh, but Chinese/South East Asian. Very good looking, confident, with a studious air about him - ticked all the boxes. I initially thought it was a language issue, as probably did those who let him in at interview, but after a few months I came to the solid conclusion that actually he was a book (of the comic variety) who shouldn't have been judged by his cover.

Edited March 13, 2010 by D'oh

[Injin]

So you wouldn't mind having open heart surgery performed by someone that was just giving it a go? I mean they might screw your surgery up, but I'm with enough victims patients they'd get it right eventually.

You make a great case there for having a completely free market, thanks.

[Cicero]

IMHO there is the World of Work and the World of Education ... completely separate from one another. The degree scam is going to disappoint MILLIONS of people. It started with the "previous administration". Universities (ex polys) accept students with NO A-LEVELS . "Society" expected young people to go off to uni and gain career prospects. In recent years Uni students have EXPECTED to get a degree. There is no negotiation ... they have to get a degree at the end of it - they "paid" for the course! That is why lots of university lectures are full of apathetic, disinterested students: they didn't go there to learn, stoopid! Genuinely interested students are a minority

As many people on this thread have already pointed out ... there are TOO many graduates! Call centres have been full of graduates for half a decade ... long before the recession. We only need a fraction of the graduates we are producing ... it is madness! It makes my blood boil when some govt mouthpiece goes on TV and says:

That's right, you govt dipshit! We will have Graduate Admins on £13K, Graduate Data Entry Clerks on £14K, Graduate Bricklayers on £17K, and ... best of all .. Graduate Roadsweepers!!!! . These people do NOT need degrees ... they need vocational training and experience!

Universities are pumping out graduates that nobody needs .. employers are incredibly rectal about experience! Isn't it time these two groups interacted and created useful career pathways? No, that would be obvious! Do you know why it won't happen? Let my tell you why, in ERIC PEBBLE STYLE:

THE EDUCONOMY! Hundreds of thousands of graduates are needed to support tens of thousands of jobs at the universities, and ALSO the suppliers of books, stationery, consumables, IT equipment, furniture, STUDENT ACCOMODATION, and real estate!!! (universities are MASSIVELY into real estate). When you add it all up, the EDUCONOMY directly supports HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of jobs, and keeps hundreds of thousands of people OFF THE UNEMPLOYMENT LIST!

The situation has been building since the early 90s. It cannot go on! We need to get back to basics. Clear out half of the degrees, and replace them with VOCATIONAL courses, that give you the skills to work in a particular field. Employers don't give a shit for inexperienced grads ... so why bother?

Yep, welcome to the Higher Education ponzi scheme.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

not everyone can pick up programming, and good job too, or it would pay starbucks wages

and what's the snobbery towards java? Perfectly good language, bit verbose, but preferable to the mishmash of two letter variables in amongst the punctuation symbols some of the others can turn into. In the end though, if you know what a loop is, know what a method is, an object is, how recursion works etc you can apply these to any language, that's the imprtant stuff they need to teach graduates even if it isn't websexy.

The trouble with Java is that it is a language designed for average programmers.

Nothing wrong with that, but because they teach it as the "standard" language at university these days, the learners are relatively ill-equipped to apply themselves to more general computing problems.

Java encourages you to think that the problems solved by libraries are solved, so it never occurs to them that there may be a better solution than the one given to them. Works fine for solved problems, but not cutting edge stuff.

If you're already a great programmer, then there isn't much wrong with Java. Though you'd have to be a masochist to actually want to get anything done in it.

In the final analysis, it's easier to pass courses that teach Java, so I'd rather someone had jumped through the C hoops before they end up being interviewed by me.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

I only met one true thickie during my time there. He wasn't posh, but Chinese/South East Asian. Very good looking, confident, with a studious air about him - ticked all the boxes. I initially thought it was a language issue, as probably did those who let him in at interview, but after a few months I came to the solid conclusion that actually he was a book (of the comic variety) who shouldn't have been judged by his cover.

The posh "thickies" I met were all doing Theology, Geography, Oriental Studies or similar. PPE/Law/History/Maths were all smart driven types, about 50/50 private/state.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

Have you ever seen Chomsky on how education and media (and other) institutions keep churning out the same like mninded people?

Might be worth your time.

Basically, you have to hold the view you do or you'd never have got in.

Chomsky is interesting on this. Also on the "closed shop" of academia, who use all sorts of ******** reasons not to take his arguments on their merits.

Interestingly also, he was the product of a schooling system with _no_ formal evaluation of progress. They just encouraged him to follow his interests and educated him through that. When he got to "normal" education it was completely alien to him.

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

You reckon you can learn Java in less than a week ? And feel confident enough to go and pick up on someone else's code and run with it ?

I thought that too.

Reminds me of people with "Java expert" on their CV who've just graduated. It's not a good start.

[Saberu]

The trouble is finding somebody who is willing to pay you for it. what we need to do is find a way to encourage entrepreneurs right across the economy.

A truer word hasn't been spoken on this forum. In today's economy dominated by big businesses your best bet as an average guy is to learn how to be a marketer as that is where the hot money is these days. I'm just working on something now that should earn more than $1k/ day once it's ready, and it's not even remotely related to anything I was doing 6 months ago or any kind of job. And I sure as hell won't be telling anyone how I do it, just like those big corps won't tell you their secrets either- though I know a good number of them.

If I was to put a number on how much the average person would benefit from learning how to make their own money- I'd say they would be earning at least 2-3x their salary.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Saberu

[Saberu]

This in part is true, however barriers keep coming up, for example I know a girlie down in Southampton who is an excellent proof reader, she doesn't advertise. I ask her to do the occassional bit of work for me. She has made a total of £140 off me, and yet according to the law she needs to be class 2 NIC paying and self employment registered.

same thing with peoplebythehour

Proofread for your blog? lol sorry, just kidding.

I know an excellent way she could advertise and essentially do that kind of work self employed but I am not going to mention it on this forum- full of people who are either unemployed or self-admitadly in jobs they hate, it's a forum full of bitter people who want a better life for themselves except a handful who are already successful.

Besides which if my more advanced/ risky business goes bad that 'excellent way' is my backup

[Cogs]

You reckon you can learn Java in less than a week ? And feel confident enough to go and pick up on someone else's code and run with it ?

Sure, if you have a solid background. The point of a good Comp Sci degree is that it should render things like learning programming languages relatively trivial as you have a wider framework to inegrate them into. If you understand hardware, you understand OSs (perhaps you've written a toy one), you understand how programming languages work, you understand object oriented programming, you understand design patterns etc., I don't see where you think the difficulty would come from with something as bog standard and intentionally generic as Java. In any case, are you really saying that the important part of programming is actually just typing? I think the question is more for the person I disagree with, how long do you think it would take someone with a degree in "Visual Basic" to learn Java and use it competently? Could they ever become capable of being competent in C++? I think not quite frankly.

I think people are looking at this issue from the wrong end of the telescope.

Edited March 13, 2010 by Cogs

[stormymonday_2011]

I thought that too.

Reminds me of people with "Java expert" on their CV who've just graduated. It's not a good start.

Got to keep the sacred texts of IT away from the masses.

Why do IT programmers love C, C++, Java, OOP etc. Because they are full of gobbledygook that can be used to stop the great unwashed from entering the temple and communicating directly with the Gods of computing. We have to keep the mysteries within the priesthood.

God forbid that natural language programming should ever become predominant so that everyone could read our code and realise that what we have been writing complete b*ll*cks for years.

Edited March 14, 2010 by realcrookswearsuits

[Saberu]

Why do IT programmers love C, C++, Java, OOP etc. Because they are full of gobbledygook that can be used to stop the great unwashed from entering the temple and communicating directly with the Gods of computing. We have to keep the mysteries within the priesthood.

I don't think that's true at all, OOP is very useful as are those three languages. I share your opinion that they are complicated, I personally prefer web languages/ scripting etc to programming.. not only easier but immensely more useful.

Standalone languages like the ones above are much more powerful though, with that power comes complication- but definitely very useful for many kinds of applications.