0.1% Growth Makes Mandelson Lose The Plot

[RichM]

So we have 'Who Cares' and 'So What' in our ruling cabinet. God help us

I've ended up with a bizarre respect for Darling. Apparently he has tried to reign Brown in, and he's been mildly honest.

Balls and Mandelson - with their attitudes to the economy, especially Mandelson - borderline treacherous? "Let's double or triple public sector debt, hahaha"?

[Injin]

the meme that needs to be spread is that this time it aint gonna be fixed by either:

1) keynsian tax and spend

2) fiscal conservative cut and raise rates.

there is a legitimate argument to be had about the best short term course of action but any such short term actions needs to have the longer term solutions and issues in mind. Further, the solutions advanced need to incorporate the reality of the modern economy which means:

1) a more or less pure credit economy

2) a technologial base which is dependant on (1) and also dependant on a given level of consumption to sustain it.

3) a recognition of demographic and energy realities

4) a recognition that mass democracy is here to stay and thus that basic common welfare must be respected

5) a recognition that unsustainable income inequalities in britain and internationally must be corrected over time

6) a recognition that banking needs to be yoked to serve the real economy

7) a recognition that future growth rates are likely to oscillate between -2 and +2%, best case.

There are no political parties anywhere that are even close to getting to first base, which is to tick all boxes above. I suspect that in private the political establishment in japan is closest to admitting reality, for obvious reasons.

Well get a dictatorship, followed by a free market after a lot of ******ing about because nothing else works.

(The free market bit probably for the kids or grandkids.)

[Authoritarian]

oh dear. All three of them on that clip were utterly clueless, and squabbling like housewives.

Mandelson was spooked and had nothing new to say, clarke was just wrong if he thinks cutting the deficit is going to lead to growth (even though the deficit does need to be cut), and wossname interviewing had no control at all.

very poor all round.

the fact is none of them, tory or labour can concepualise a long period of secular stagnation and contraction.

I have yet to see any major party politican or central banker from the UK, US, or europe who has publicly faced up to the reality.

There's too many hangers on, this is what's killing the economy.

We don't need perpetual growth, is just another one of those political soundbites like 'full employment' that show that the politicians care (even if they can't think or be honest with the public)

Many basic human requirements - like housing for example - can be built once and will last a lifetime. Very few things need to be replaced every day which means work should be targeted to where we need or want it most. We certainly shouldn't be scared about less' growth', but declining livng standards due to an unsustainable gov't debt burden does bother me. Its completely unnecessary.

Edited January 26, 2010 by chefdave

[RichM]

I have yet to see any major party politican or central banker from the UK, US, or europe who has publicly faced up to the reality.

... in public. Osborne and Cameron look scared. This mess makes Thatcher and the miners etc look like a walk in the park. This will drag on for years.

[Injin]

... in public. Osborne and Cameron look scared. This mess makes Thatcher and the miners etc look like a walk in the park. This will drag on for years.

There is no one with the balls to tell the 90% of the population who are waiting for pensions/medical care/benefits/freebies/whatever they have been lied to.

They'll just print and lie more. It's all they know. Talk shit and print.

[lulu]

... in public. Osborne and Cameron look scared. This mess makes Thatcher and the miners etc look like a walk in the park. This will drag on for years.

and the fact that the public and media are still more happy to blame the (nasty) Tories for everything (that in many cases for things they have not had chance to do yet) makes the whole thing even more stupid.

If Labour win the next election they will continue to blame the Tories (and everyone else) for what is going wrong (and the masses will believe them). If the Tories get in, they will get the blame for Brown's ineptitude over the last 13 years. They (the Tories) cannot win and I am starting to wonder if they really want to - all the politicians must know what is coming, sadly they are too busy arranging which of the collapsible lifeboats (Titanic ref) they are in rather than making a stand against it.

[mirage]

Edited January 27, 2010 by mirage

[Pick It Down]

There is no one with the balls to tell the 90% of the population who are waiting for pensions/medical care/benefits/freebies/whatever they have been lied to.

They'll just print and lie more. It's all they know. Talk shit and print.

They won't print as inflation has been seen to take off.

[Guest spp]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/7080587/Britain-at-risk-of-plunging-back-into-recession.html

'The Bank of England may now be forced to pump billions of pounds more into the economy to ensure that the country does not slip back into recession.' :angry:

'However, the Bank faces the problem of inflation beginning to rise while the economy stagnates'

'There are growing international concerns that Britain Labour has failed to grasp the scale of the economic meltdown' :angry:

Bill Gross, the head of Pimco, the world’s biggest bond investor, said the British Government’s gilts were “resting on a bed of nitro-glycerine”.

[Injin]

They won't print as inflation has been seen to take off.

So?

They'll print more to pay the interest.

What do you think they are gonna do?

Sober up from the kool aid they have been quaffing, roll their sleeves up and get proper jobs, pitch in or something?

[Authoritarian]

Wasn't all this nasty business America's fault anyway?

They can't have it both ways, blame it on the U.S when things go badly and then go on to claim victory when we experience a tiny amount of growth. Come on Gordon, are you responsible for the economy or not.

[Guest spp]

They won't print as inflation has been seen to take off.

If they stop the ponzi will collapse

[South Lorne]

The man's a nutjob. The country appears to be crashing with madmen at the helm.

...hey don't be so glum...after the election..maybe he could get together with Gordo ...and enter 'Britains Got Talent'(after all Brown seems to have leverage with Cowell)...and try and rival the father and son Greek Dancing Act ...with maybe a Scots / English version of Cossack Dancing ....at least we'd have a laugh ...while some with sense try to get the country back on keel...

Edited January 27, 2010 by South Lorne

[pmgdawau]

Did anyone else just watch the interview with Peter Mandelson and Ken Clarke on Channel 4 News?

I think I just saw a man have a nervous breakdown on the screen. Peter Mandelson couldn't stop talking, interrrupting Ken Clarke, and repeating the same inane drivel over and over again. No need for cuts, growth is going to save the day. Over and over and over again.

Then to top it off he started talking about himself in the third person: "Peter is going to do this", "Peter is going to do that.".

Maybe the clip will be posted on youtube. It was a classic.

The man's a nutjob. The country appears to be crashing with madmen at the helm.

Maybe this comment from Bill Gross was what was stressing Mandelson/Darling out

One of the world’s most influential investors said that Britain was now a “must to avoid”.

Bill Gross, the head of Pimco, the world’s biggest bond investor, said the British Government’s gilts were “resting on a bed of nitro-glycerine”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/7080587/Britain-at-risk-of-plunging-back-into-recession.html

eek

[South Lorne]

Maybe this comment from Bill Gross was what was stressing Mandelson/Darling out

One of the world’s most influential investors said that Britain was now a “must to avoid”.

Bill Gross, the head of Pimco, the world’s biggest bond investor, said the British Government’s gilts were “resting on a bed of nitro-glycerine”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/recession/7080587/Britain-at-risk-of-plunging-back-into-recession.html

eek

....the key here is

Speculation is now building that the Prime Minister may now wish to call an election in either mid-April or June to avoid polling day being overshadowed by another set of disappointing financial figures.

...add to this the need for Darling to produce a budget before the election if it goes to May ...can't see it....

[0q0]

Painted themselves and the rest of us into a corner, I fear. Suddenly the silence is deafening.

It's "eek" alright.

Edited January 27, 2010 by The Last Bear

[winkie]

oh dear. All three of them on that clip were utterly clueless, and squabbling like housewives.

Mandelson was spooked and had nothing new to say, clarke was just wrong if he thinks cutting the deficit is going to lead to growth (even though the deficit does need to be cut), and wossname interviewing had no control at all.

very poor all round.

the fact is none of them, tory or labour can concepualise a long period of secular stagnation and contraction.

I have yet to see any major party politican or central banker from the UK, US, or europe who has publicly faced up to the reality.

There will be no magic formula any party or politician can offer and none of them can/will see us out of this without some pain.......it is just a case of when the real pain will occur, now or greater pain later...I say face up to it now, then move on.

[SarahBell]

True.

Seriously though, how, how, HOW? Has he become so powerful.

planning. he's got the goss.

read

Boiling a Frog

by Christopher Brookmyre (Author)

[GordonBrownSpentMyFuture]

True.

Seriously though, how, how, HOW? Has he become so powerful. If you read a brief summary of his 'career' it is littered with shame, scandal, embarrassment and failure. Add to this the undeniable fact <crazed, hypnotic, spinning, satanic eyes> you agree with me, YOU AGREE WITH ME </crazed, hypnotic, spinning satanic eyes> that nobody would leave their child in a room with him, even for a moment (think about it -you really wouldn't would you?) due to his almost Biblical creepiness, how has he become more than a despised headmaster (which is what I imagine he would have become without his 'powers')?

Serious question - anyone know how he has managed it? Or does the Government have that much contempt for us they will inflict him upon us as an all-powerful demi-god politician with a shrug of the shoulders and a 'fukc them, they'll never notice' smirk?

I can only conclude that he must hold some serious sh!t on significant people from back in the good ol' days. What else can explain his repeated elasticated return to authority?

[Pick It Down]

So?

They'll print more to pay the interest.

What do you think they are gonna do?

Sober up from the kool aid they have been quaffing, roll their sleeves up and get proper jobs, pitch in or something?

They've got their redundancy payout and pensions, why do they care?

[Tonester]

Pure politics at it's frustrating worst. 1-0 to Mandelson if anything.

The traditional political strategy at this time would be to play your cards closely to your chest and keep policy under wraps until election - and for the Tories to say they will cut waste and for Labour to say Tories will cut key services. Yawn. I just wish one of the parties had the balls to take a risk of being specific with what they plan. If so I think they would get some respect, as plenty are expecting measures of austerity and I think can accept some pain.

[DTMark]

Pure politics at it's frustrating worst. 1-0 to Mandelson if anything.

The traditional political strategy at this time would be to play your cards closely to your chest and keep policy under wraps until election - and for the Tories to say they will cut waste and for Labour to say Tories will cut key services. Yawn. I just wish one of the parties had the balls to take a risk of being specific with what they plan. If so I think they would get some respect, as plenty are expecting measures of austerity and I think can accept some pain.

Did you really get that impression? I thought it was extraordinary. Ken Clarke didn't need to say anything. He just sat there grinning as Mandelson lost it. If I didn't know better, I'd have said Mandelson was stoned - I've never seen him so completely and comprehensively destroyed before. Perhaps a more likely explanation is that he'd just had a row with Brown on the subject and realises now that it's all a bit pointless.

[JustYield]

What i found astounding is the bit where Ken Clarke says :

Ken: ... we have the biggest, fastest rising debt

and then under his breath but caught on the mic Mandelson replied : Who cares?

Astounded i was just stunned.

Sounded like "But Ken" to me.

[nixy]

What i found astounding is the bit where Ken Clarke says :

Ken: ... we have the biggest, fastest rising debt

and then under his breath but caught on the mic Mandelson replied : Who cares?

Astounded i was just stunned.

The Tories should use this in their election campaign. With the 'who cares' bit amplified or digitally 'remastered ' if need be..

Declaring, THIS is why YOU will worse off under Labour.

The Tories should be working harder to lose the election, by declaring the cuts WILL be MASSIVE. They could point to Ireland who've had the balls to take the hard decisions. House prices down 40% , big cuts in public sector pay?

[nixy]

Well get a dictatorship, followed by a free market after a lot of ******ing about because nothing else works.

(The free market bit probably for the kids or grandkids.)

What the cost these days for your average dictatorship?

The point being, government would be fine.........it's just it charges too much. In much the same way the Mafia charges too much.

Edited January 27, 2010 by nixy