bogbrush Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 She's got it right here; http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/stephanieflanders/2009/11/new_name_for_a_new_economy.html#comments Capitalism has survived. But it's not the capitalism we thought we had. When you consider the scale and scope of government involvement in most of the advanced economies right now, "free market capitalism" seems a bit of a stretch. Today we had confirmation that the eurozone economy had moved out of recession in the third quarter. But the public sector was almost entirely responsible for the modest growth that the major European countries have achieved since the spring. The last 20 years were supposed to be about the end of the era of big government. And yet, public borrowing in the leading "free market" economies - Britain and the US - has never been as high as it is today, outside times of war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 We have corporate capitalism, if your big enough to get to meet MP's etc... you suddenly become a state company by proxy and start feeding of govt contracts. I dread to think how many private companies are wholly dependent on govt spending, even some small sandwich shops will be dependent on govt employees for business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia O'Keeffe Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 We have corporate capitalism, if your big enough to get to meet MP's etc... you suddenly become a state company by proxy and start feeding of govt contracts. I dread to think how many private companies are wholly dependent on govt spending, even some small sandwich shops will be dependent on govt employees for business. yes , this was the problem with woollies, they should have opened a store in westminster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest happy? Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I dread to think how many private companies are wholly dependent on govt spending, even some small sandwich shops will be dependent on govt employees for business. Herein lies the kicker for Wee Georgie Osborne - prescribe Grannie Thatcher's Magic Economic Cure All and you risk destroying the economy - failed in the '80s why would it work now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted November 14, 2009 Author Share Posted November 14, 2009 Herein lies the kicker for Wee Georgie Osborne - prescribe Grannie Thatcher's Magic Economic Cure All and you risk destroying the economy - failed in the '80s why would it work now? It's the only answer. These businesses have got to be weaned off the drugs sooner or later, the waste is just killing the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrentyieldmakessense(honest!) Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Today we had confirmation that the eurozone economy had moved out of recession in the third quarter. But the public sector was almost entirely responsible for the modest growth that the major European countries have achieved since the spring what these idiots dont get is that the reason some of these coutries are showing positive GDP figures (and hence coming out of recession) is due to the money printing and government borrowing/ stimulus packages. But when you stimulate something too much you end up not getting any life out of it for a long time. more malinvestments carrying on and more pain later to correct it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Herein lies the kicker for Wee Georgie Osborne - prescribe Grannie Thatcher's Magic Economic Cure All and you risk destroying the economy - failed in the '80s why would it work now? It's a huge dilemma but where is the money going to come from to fund the gravy train? You can only spend what you earn, at some point you will run out of money. I'm at a loss as to how a painless adjustment could be made without destroying the economy, debt levels I fear are far too high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrentyieldmakessense(honest!) Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 It's the only answer. These businesses have got to be weaned off the drugs sooner or later, the waste is just killing the country. sometimes i think we are doomed - enough just cant see it this one sums it up link One pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small, and the ones that mother gives you don’t do anything at all. Go ask Alice, when she’s 10 feet tall…As Morpheus said to Neo: “we live in an imaginary state.” A state in which people have been indoctrinated to such a degree that they are no longer able to discern reality from make believe. A culture that is so socially numb and easily pliable that words like “misspoke” and “misstated” have replaced the word “lied”; a culture where a person can be asked a yes or no question and speak for 5 minutes and never answer the question and yet everyone believes that somehow he did; a culture where a black person can’t be referred to as black; a 5'0" 100-lb woman can’t be referred to as smaller and weaker than a 6'6" 250-lb man; a culture where the wife of a president is considered able to lead a nation for no reason other than she was the wife of a president and ignoring that her version of a story is given more credence than actual video footage; a culture where one can be sued if they don’t hire someone even if they are unqualified for the job; a culture where people can be arrested, booked and thrown in jail for driving a car and feel as though somehow they deserve it. There is an entire generation or two of people that are so anesthetized that they condone the invasion and destruction of sovereign third-world countries that couldn’t possibly pose a threat to our national security whatsoever and the killing of innocent men, women, children in the process: Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan and yet practically bring the country to a standstill for the death of 13 U.S. soldiers in Texas. When did we go to war with Pakistan? We are a society of people who have gone down the rabbit hole with the Mad Hatter and March Hare and believe that somehow contrary to basic mathematical laws like one plus one equals two the economy can be improved by taking money from one person and giving it to another or by dropping it from a helicopter. Given their drunken social state, it makes perfect sense to them. We live in a society where one’s celebrity equates to ability; where a pretty face, gender or ethnic background means more than character, integrity, ability and courage; where a political man, morally, professionally and personally disgraced, can lecture at Harvard’s school of ethics and a political woman known for lying during campaign trips and elsewhere can be appointed to one of our countries highest posts: secretary of state. A society in which a man wins an international peace award, not for his peace efforts, but rather for a PowerPoint presentation about a theoretical and controversial environmental condition or by a man who, not only didn’t exhibit any of the required characteristics of the award, but in fact exhibited exactly the opposite by sending American men and women into war zones to do his dirty work. It will be a glorious day when “leaders” have to fight their own battles. I wonder how quick they would be to go to war then. We have people around the world including our biggest financier, China laughing at our government’s highest officials when they try to sell them the same ******** the inebriated Americans buy and yet the drugged continue to believe. So this is the society in which we sober folks live and we must continually keep an eye on the addicts, who are in fact the majority, in order to make sure they don’t affect us to the detriment of our lives. We must constantly try to convince them to seek help; to enroll in rehab because the problem starts with them. Delusion is real and the truth will set them free. It’s scary to know the truth because one can never go back to the ignorant bliss from which one came. Let’s hope the truth does it before depression, hyperinflation and bread lines or worse do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 It's the only answer. These businesses have got to be weaned off the drugs sooner or later, the waste is just killing the country. The problem is that the philosophy of markets is found only in random enclaves. Thatch had the (insane) idea that if you cut the state support, business and enterprise would spontaneously sprout hither and thither, as though folk on sink estates were going to pull 300 years of enlightenment thinking out of their arses and then get building businesses from scratch. Actually they just generally got despondent then bought more white lightning because they had no idea what else to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Blimey, is this one of the first signs of the established economists calling to end central banking as we know it? The quotation sounds like a call to 'End The Fed' to me! It's about time that this sort of opinion bubbled out into the MSM. Bring it on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Actually they just generally got despondent then bought more white lightning because they had no idea what else to do. Yep. If you look at the former mining communities total deprivation because the areas lacked the ideas and infrastructure to create new wealth. Extracting coal is hard work, these people where not going to become software engineers overnight but yet that's what the caring Tories thought would happen in there little la la land world. The same has happened in Detroit nothing has replaced the car industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 The problem is that the philosophy of markets is found only in random enclaves. Thatch had the (insane) idea that if you cut the state support, business and enterprise would spontaneously sprout hither and thither, as though folk on sink estates were going to pull 300 years of enlightenment thinking out of their arses and then get building businesses from scratch. Actually they just generally got despondent then bought more white lightning because they had no idea what else to do. I thought you were an anarchist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I thought you were an anarchist? I am, but I'm not also a bloody idiot. You can't just free folks up with no philosophiocal backing, no understanding and no tools for living and dealing with each other and expect great things - anarchy is possible, but theres a huge hill or twelve between here and there, mostly mountains of delusion and falsehood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest absolutezero Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 The problem is that the philosophy of markets is found only in random enclaves. Thatch had the (insane) idea that if you cut the state support, business and enterprise would spontaneously sprout hither and thither, as though folk on sink estates were going to pull 300 years of enlightenment thinking out of their arses and then get building businesses from scratch. Actually they just generally got despondent then bought more white lightning because they had no idea what else to do. You know, Injin. That's the most rational thing I've ever seen you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I am, but I'm not also a bloody idiot. You can't just free folks up with no philosophiocal backing, no understanding and no tools for living and dealing with each other and expect great things - anarchy is possible, but theres a huge hill or twelve between here and there, mostly mountains of delusion and falsehood. So before we set people free, we have to educate them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr ray Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Yep. If you look at the former mining communities total deprivation because the areas lacked the ideas and infrastructure to create new wealth. Extracting coal is hard work, these people where not going to become software engineers overnight but yet that's what the caring Tories thought would happen in there little la la land world. The same has happened in Detroit nothing has replaced the car industry. I don't think the expectation is that it would happen within the same generation. The problem with Thach is that she didn't go far enough. Allowing dinosaur industries to fail is a necessity but supporting the workers to a degree where they don't need to do anything to survive at a basic level stifles the innovation and resourcefulness which all humans have. There is a story I think told by Adam Smith of the village idiot being employed to move a lever back and forth on a very early steam engine. After a while he worked out that if he attached a piece of string to the lever and tied the other end to the rocking beam the machine would move the lever back and forth automatically - something the inventor hadn't worked out because he was not the one having to pull the lever all day. The folks on the sink estates use their ingenuity to break into cars and defraud the benefits system - something most of us haven't the skills to do. In a way the system is allowing a misallocation of ingenuity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 So before we set people free, we have to educate them? Not so much. To be free, people have to not be educated with crap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Not so much. To be free, people have to not be educated with crap. So if we stop educating people for a while, then we are free to abolish the state? Or do we have to remove only the crap from their education? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 So if we stop educating people for a while, then we are free to abolish the state? Or do we have to remove only the crap from their education? If you remove the crap then they won't want one - it won't make any sense to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 If you remove the crap then they won't want one - it won't make any sense to them. But won't the men with guns make them have one anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest absolutezero Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 If you remove the crap then they won't want one - it won't make any sense to them. Can you define the "crap"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okaycuckoo Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 I am, but I'm not also a bloody idiot. You can't just free folks up with no philosophiocal backing, no understanding and no tools for living and dealing with each other and expect great things - anarchy is possible, but theres a huge hill or twelve between here and there, mostly mountains of delusion and falsehood. Sounds a bit like the Pilgrim's Progress. Sure you're not a secular chiliast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Sounds a bit like the Pilgrim's Progress. Sure you're not a secular chiliast? The imminent* eschaton of state failure? Mind you, Rothbard accused Marx of the same: http://mises.org/story/3769 *sic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 But won't the men with guns make them have one anyway? Not if they get it. They pick the guns up because they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timm Posted November 14, 2009 Share Posted November 14, 2009 Not if they get it. They pick the guns up because they don't. No, they pick up the guns because of the fear and greed of human nature, and their own residual endowment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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