Emma Is Currently Working As A Care Assistant

[Guest anorthosite]

They ended up working on the Royal Yacht Britannia.

Before or after it became a tourist attraction in Edinburgh?

[Guest AuntJess]

I think that's half the problem. The yoof have been brainwashed into believing that everyone can go to university and that everyone should try. Further education doesn't suit everyone, and sadly, even though some students believe that Uni is the path for them they find they are not cut out for it.

It's seems like 50% of young people going to uni is a strange target. Surely a degree only has value because more there are fewer people without a degree than there are with a degree? I recall discussing this when I was at Uni (late 80s) and someone came up with a figure saying that having a degree puts you in the group of about 1% of the population. Now it seems that a degree is just like an extended A level, and you'll need a masters or a PhD to get that entry level job in Natwest

In my last teaching post I taught A level students and sadly there were many of them who were convinced that university was the path for them (when their teachers were pretty telling them otherwise). As a tutor I remember one girl who wrote her personal statement about why she wanted to do a course in forensics or some such thing (blame CSI!), but changed her mind and produced a 'revised' personal statement for a course in something else - she had simply done a search and replace of the name of the course and changed the "I have always been interested in...." topics. So much for the passion that drives you to follow a course at degree level

QB

Agreed!

I think that some careers teachers are to blame for misdirection. They get these trendy ideas about careers and don't try to match the kid to the training. One lad I met was advised to study architecture. He was not an A grade student but he loved his tech. drawing etc. I told him to pursue being a draughtsman, as I knew that if one reaches too high - and fails - then you lose the incentive to try again. It is all about manageable steps.

The careers teacher at my daughter's school talked her out of being a speech therapist and she has ALways regretted it.

You gotta go with your talent/passion.

Edited January 11, 2009 by AuntJess

[Guest AuntJess]

Before or after it became a tourist attraction in Edinburgh?

Oh! This is about 25 - 30 years ago.

[bogbrush]

I've only met a handful of humans who couldn't do most things if they put their mind to it. There are very, very, very few "speical" people with unreplacable talents. Every caste system that's every been proves that most people can do most things, its the few that don't fit that suffer but most people do not motice.

The trouble is that out systems don't have space for everyone to run everything or have a say in how things should operate.

It's the design that makes an elite, not any inner traits that the people themselves have. When the people who wind up (by luck) actually doing the important stuff don't recognise that they are lucky and share the goodies, trouble starts. Expecially when the systems basic design is coercive and not voluntary.

It always has and it always does.

I'd agree certainly that there are no irreplacable people. What there are though is people who through accident of genetics and training are conditioned to know how to do it and find acquiring that knowledge easier, and who therefore have better odds of succeeding.

The problem with the kids being sent to the cobbled-together Universities to do hopeless degrees is that they are being lied to that they are learning how to join that club, when on the quiet they are being trained to join the other club; the ignorant, dependent, and debt-ridden.

[Umiapik]

"I always thought my degree would help me in the long-term with a career, but it certainly hasn't helped me with the first step. A lot of agencies don't care if you have a degree, they just want to know that you can type a certain number of words a minute," she says. "Right now, job-hunting for me is about money, not about a career."

Nothing new here! I graduated way back in 2000 and even back then I was surprised at how little a degree was actually valued by employers. They were more interested in asking questions like "how fast can you type?" "What's your telephone manner like?" And of course, the killer question: "So, do you have any relevant experience?"

I'm doing well for myself now but getting started was very tough; it took me years to establish myself professionally. Unless you're one of the lucky few who manage to get onto a graduate trainee scheme straight after uni, you'll have to fight your way upwards. Such is life!

[the flying pig]

agreed, this is a complete non-story.

even at the very end of the 'roaring nineties' or whatever i'd only expect a minority of teeside poly students, other than those studying very obviously in-demand subjects, to go straight into a proper graduate job.

this is very clearly not some new thing that's been brought on by the credit crunch or whatever.

Edited January 11, 2009 by the flying pig

[Injin]

I'd agree certainly that there are no irreplacable people. What there are though is people who through accident of genetics and training are conditioned to know how to do it and find acquiring that knowledge easier, and who therefore have better odds of succeeding.

The problem with the kids being sent to the cobbled-together Universities to do hopeless degrees is that they are being lied to that they are learning how to join that club, when on the quiet they are being trained to join the other club; the ignorant, dependent, and debt-ridden.

Well yeah.

That's why it causes so much trouble.

There are 100 people who "could of" only 4 who actually can and the 96 are asked to do all the donkey work. Normally that's shite but ok as long as the rewards are handed out relatively equitably and no one has any illusions.

Tell 50 out of the 100 they can be one of the 4 then change that more or less overnight to them actually doing the shit stuff for very poor reward with no equitable sharing and it's an instant recipe for revolution.

Anyone can become a revoltuonary or outcast politicl lleader, it's only another set of skills and as I said, anyone can learn pretty much anything. The last time these exact same circumstances arrived, Hitler was the next step.

[nixy]

Well yeah.

That's why it causes so much trouble.

There are 100 people who "could of" only 4 who actually can and the 96 are asked to do all the donkey work. Normally that's shite but ok as long as the rewards are handed out relatively equitably and no one has any illusions.

Tell 50 out of the 100 they can be one of the 4 then change that more or less overnight to them actually doing the shit stuff for very poor reward with no equitable sharing and it's an instant recipe for revolution.

Anyone can become a revoltuonary or outcast politicl lleader, it's only another set of skills and as I said, anyone can learn pretty much anything. The last time these exact same circumstances arrived, Hitler was the next step.

Sorry Injin but I suspect that's not true. It smacks of socialism ie we're all born equal. We are not.

To use the old race horse / cart horse analogy, You can give the cart horse ALL the training resources in the world but it will never win the Grand National.

[winkie]

Everyone can learn something.

[Injin]

Sorry Injin but I suspect that's not true. It smacks of socialism ie we're all born equal. We are not.

To use the old race horse / cart horse analogy, You can give the cart horse ALL the training resources in the world but it will never win the Grand National.

It's good old fashioned classical liberalism.

Everyone is capable, only a few can and even fewer do. That being the case, the ones who win have to make the game palatable to the losers, or they will stop playing.

If you could do me a quick list of jobs that most people of average intelligence and ffitness are completely incapable of doing, that'd be a great help. Being edged out because of fractional percentages of maximal ability simply doesn't count for this. it's like saying that only Michael Phelps can swim.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Injin

[Guest anorthosite]

If you could do me a quick list of jobs that most people of average intelligence and ffitness are completely incapable of doing, that'd be a great help.

Given that half the population are below average intelligence I'd say that means most scientific, medical & engineering jobs are out. You have to be above average intelligence to do those.

[Bloo Loo]

It's good old fashioned classical liberalism.

Everyone is capable, only a few can and even fewer do. That being the case, the ones who win have to make the game palatable to the losers, or they will stop playing.

If you could do me a quick list of jobs that most people of average intelligence and ffitness are completely incapable of doing, that'd be a great help. Being edged out because of fractional percentages of maximal ability simply doesn't count for this. it's like saying that only Michael Phelps can swim.

Most people are totally flummoxed by modern economics. Or rather they are told time and again it is only for highly qualified people to understand. This is the mark of the fraudster.

Theyve managed to complicate some of the simplest possible concepts so that no-one can understand them except lex Luther.

[Guest anorthosite]

Most people are totally flummoxed by modern economics. Or rather they are told time and again it is only for highly qualified people to understand. This is the mark of the fraudster.

Theyve managed to complicate some of the simplest possible concepts so that no-one can understand them except lex Luther.

You need lawyers & economists to understand law & the economy because these buggers have made it so complicated in the first place. I sometimes think its all a bit of a scam.

[Injin]

Most people are totally flummoxed by modern economics. Or rather they are told time and again it is only for highly qualified people to understand. This is the mark of the fraudster.

Theyve managed to complicate some of the simplest possible concepts so that no-one can understand them except lex Luther.

Ofc.

If people understood markets and the basics of economics on a wide scale, the "elite" would be SOL within a week. On opportunity cost alone Gordon Brown and chums owe everyone else billions.

[mfp123]

I think that's half the problem. The yoof have been brainwashed into believing that everyone can go to university and that everyone should try. Further education doesn't suit everyone, and sadly, even though some students believe that Uni is the path for them they find they are not cut out for it.

It's seems like 50% of young people going to uni is a strange target. Surely a degree only has value because more there are fewer people without a degree than there are with a degree? I recall discussing this when I was at Uni (late 80s) and someone came up with a figure saying that having a degree puts you in the group of about 1% of the population. Now it seems that a degree is just like an extended A level, and you'll need a masters or a PhD to get that entry level job in Natwest

In my last teaching post I taught A level students and sadly there were many of them who were convinced that university was the path for them (when their teachers were pretty telling them otherwise). As a tutor I remember one girl who wrote her personal statement about why she wanted to do a course in forensics or some such thing (blame CSI!), but changed her mind and produced a 'revised' personal statement for a course in something else - she had simply done a search and replace of the name of the course and changed the "I have always been interested in...." topics. So much for the passion that drives you to follow a course at degree level

QB

i disagree. a degree isnt just about qualifications and getting a job but developing your knowledge, skills , intelligence and broadening your mind as a person.

i would argue that if every person had and took the opportunity go through higher education, a lot of problems in society such as poverty and crime etc would be reduced significantly because people would have a far broader mindset in life.

how many people with a good education do you see hanging around on street corners, committing crime, or live their lives off benefits?

even doing an advanced degree in the history of art, studying the plays of shakespeare or learning advanced quantum mechanics is very rarely useful in the real world in helping you to sell insurance, or developing a marketing strategy at tesco's. however its not a bad thing to improve the mindset and intelligence of the population.

personally i actually think that everyone should continue some form of education throughout their lives because it keeps your brain active.

when you stop learning you start to close your mindset and believe everything should revolve around how you already think. you become less inclined to accept other ideas and opinions because you just cant be bothered to listen or just lose interest in learning new things anymore.

Edited January 11, 2009 by mfp123

[Guest anorthosite]

i disagree. a degree isnt just about qualifications and getting a job but developing your knowledge, skills , intelligence and broadening your mind as a person.

i would argue that if every person had and took the opportunity go through higher education, a lot of problems in society such as poverty and crime etc would be reduced significantly because people would have a far broader mindset in life.

how many people with a good education do you see hanging around on street corners, committing crime, or live their lives off benefits?

even doing an advanced degree in the history of art, studying the plays of shakespeare or learning advanced quantum mechanics is very rarely useful in the real world in helping you to sell insurance, or developing a marketing strategy at tesco's. however its not a bad thing to improve the mindset and intelligence of the population.

personally i actually think that everyone should continue some form of education throughout their lives because it keeps your brain active.

when you stop learning you start to close your mindset and believe everything should revolve around how you already think. you become less inclined to accept other ideas and opinions because you just cant be bothered to listen or just arent interested in learning new things anymore.

+1

[Bloo Loo]

snip

personally i actually think that everyone should continue some form of education throughout their lives because it keeps your brain active.

when you stop learning you start to close your mindset and believe everything should revolve around how you already think. you become less inclined to accept other ideas and opinions because you just cant be bothered to listen or just lose interest in learning new things anymore.

Ive got a degree in economics just by reading this web site.

[Injin]

Ive got a degree in economics just by reading this web site.

Well put.

Degrees measure someone elses estimation of your ability If that person is a bit of a ******wit themselves they arent much use.

btw, I am now handing out Injindiplomas.

PhD for Bloo loo I think. Anothersite, don't see me.

[hilltop]

Ive got a degree in economics just by reading this web site.

No you haven't, what we lack on this site is the discipline to achieve discipline status! (Just watch the slew of bad jokes I will have set up)

[Elizabeth]

The educational pyramid scheme.

Tragic. Up to their eyeballs in debt. Disappointed. Frustrated. Shafted.

The con of cons. 50% going to university - a total delusion.

A classic of governmentality. User pays for goverment solutions to their economic conundrums.

The first step was to put the young people through greater and greater levels of education so as to keep them out of the employment pool hence demonstrating that with the number of people available we still need a 37 hour week to achieve the things that need to be achieved.

The second step was to get the young people to pay for unemployment minimisation themselves.

[Bloo Loo]

Well put.

Degrees measure someone elses estimation of your ability If that person is a bit of a ******wit themselves they arent much use.

btw, I am now handing out Injindiplomas.

PhD for Bloo loo I think. Anothersite, don't see me.

better shake on it.

[Injin]

better shake on it.

You still want that pint then?

Goddamn.

[Guest An Bearin Bui]

Last summer Bea Carter, 21, finished her English literature degree and decided to stay in Manchester with her university friends to "live together, like young professionals". She thought it would be fun. "But I'm even struggling to get a job I don't want, let alone one that I do." She settled for a job at a branch of Marks & Spencer's Simply Food. "Working in a supermarket wasn't really what I expected to be doing at all, but since I can't even get admin or office work, I had to take it." A week before M&S announced it was axing 1,200 jobs, Carter's contract came up for renewal. Her managers let it expire. Shocked, she tried registering at temping agencies but was told she couldn't because she didn't have administrative experience. "I always thought my degree would help me in the long-term with a career, but it certainly hasn't helped me with the first step. A lot of agencies don't care if you have a degree, they just want to know that you can type a certain number of words a minute," she says. "Right now, job-hunting for me is about money, not about a career."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/j...yment-recession

When I graduated in 2001, the situation was exactly the same as they describe - 40-50 job applications to get a job interview of any description, let alone a job. All these problems have been building up in the economy for years and it's nothing new. Essentially there are more and more job-seekers coming through but fewer and fewer jobs. It's easy to say, 'a degree's a waste of time' but what else should people do? If you just finish school, the job prospects aren't exactly sterling either. You won't waste money on a degree, but you certainly won't have employers queuing around the block to hire you. This all boils down to a fundamental lack of economic growth - it has been masked by HPI and debt for a few years but at its foundations the economy is simply weak and this means there are fewer and fewer opportunities for people of all generations. The young get hit hardest as they have to fight to get in the door of an already weakened job market.

I knew people who graduated with me in 2001 and ended up working as estate agents despite having good Russell Group degrees (2.1) and Masters qualifications - it was all they could get. At least it allowed them to earn a reasonable salary but they were, ironically, priced out of housing (unless they took out liar loans). The pool of good job opportunities has been dwindling year on year for decades now but the pool of hungry, young people desperate for a break is growing ever larger... how many more tricks can the government pull out of their sleeve to conceal the fundamental economic weakness (i.e. lack of productive growth and innovation) at the heart of all this??

[dave_1]

i disagree. a degree isnt just about qualifications and getting a job but developing your knowledge, skills , intelligence and broadening your mind as a person.

i would argue that if every person had and took the opportunity go through higher education, a lot of problems in society such as poverty and crime etc would be reduced significantly because people would have a far broader mindset in life.

how many people with a good education do you see hanging around on street corners, committing crime, or live their lives off benefits?

even doing an advanced degree in the history of art, studying the plays of shakespeare or learning advanced quantum mechanics is very rarely useful in the real world in helping you to sell insurance, or developing a marketing strategy at tesco's. however its not a bad thing to improve the mindset and intelligence of the population.

personally i actually think that everyone should continue some form of education throughout their lives because it keeps your brain active.

when you stop learning you start to close your mindset and believe everything should revolve around how you already think. you become less inclined to accept other ideas and opinions because you just cant be bothered to listen or just lose interest in learning new things anymore.

In my experience, degrees are for the lazy and ignorant, on the most part, I only know two people from my childhood that did worthwhile degrees and now have fulfilling and valued jobs, to be fair, these two people are the most intelligent people I know, but they are lacking in some respects, being university types I don't think they understand the concept of overtime or working smarter than your contemporaries.

You must remember, that most people that got to university are wasters, this is diffirent to being a criminal. Ofc most of the smartest people go to university too. They should make university more difficult and remove the numpty courses.

Electing not to go to university is not closing your mind from learing, learning by doing is always better, the steeper the learning curve the better the end retention of knowledge, not to mention that, going to university often has a negative effect on important skills, compared going out there and trying to achieve something. Ofc again, some jobs require a lot of class room learning before someone can be unleashed on that profession so to speak.

Incidentally of all my childhood friends the ones who have achieved the most purely in a financial sense and a career sense, are two of us GSCE educated criminal types.

[Bloo Loo]

You still want that pint then?

Goddamn.

you gotta admit im persistent.

As you know, to get your degree you shake the deans hand. And I expect full robes and regalia. Thats feathers and peace pipe in your case.