Buying Woodland

[muggle]

OK, having read this thread, I've bought:

A tent

A knife

A year's supply of Pot Noodles

A wind up torch

2,000,000 Iodine tablets

can anyone think of anything I've missed?

[Kurt Barlow]

Horse? Bicycles?

Town semis are good news if things are merely bad, as they were in WW2. There wasn't social breakdown, partly because most young men were in the armed forces and otherwise occupied! With an "I know my rights" generation of young people who've never worked, and many of whose parents have never worked, the further I am from anywhere they can get to on foot, the happier I'll be.

Like the sharecropping idea though - it was on the news ?last night as a solution to the long waiting lists for allotments.

I still think it would be easier to get together and defend your suburb from maruading chav spud thieves than defend an isolated farmstead. Look at development in Uk / Europe - the village - small town was for this very reason.

[Guest Skint Academic]

socks

No. A bandana is more important than socks. None of it works unless you have a red bandana. Trust me on this. Once you get that, you can then wear the discarded canvas sheeting left laying around and tied round your waist with cord. Only then do you wear the socks (although socks with canvas sheeting and a red bandana does look rather stupid to be honest with you)

[Kurt Barlow]

Has anybody looked at the possibility of buying a couple of acres of woodland for say £20k and then dumping a mobile home in the middle of it?

Always strikes me as possibly a very cheap way to live on your own large plot of land.

I have no idea as to te cost of mobile homes though.

Other problems would be water and sewage? Solvable?

I'm surprised more people don't do this. I reckon you could enjoy quite a decent quality of life living like this, with nature next door instead of a bunch of chavs.

Half the gangmasters in East Anglia have already done this and filled em with eastern europeans

Planning - dont worry

Cost - £500 - buy some hovel off a static caravan site that is being redeveloped into 'park homes'

Water - its a wet country

Sewage - the ground below is very absorbent

[Ologhai Jones]

That's more like it!

This list (and the concluding paragraph) particularly makes me think that perhaps buying a bit of woodland would be nice:

Enjoy fresh air, and peace and quiet.

Barbeques, picnics, walks

Be a kid again and build a camp

Build the ultimate swing

Be really popular with any kids you have or know

Light a fire, sit round it; poke it.

Cook bangers on a stick

Plant and enjoy woodland flowers

Watch and cultivate the birds (and other wildlife, if lucky)

Collect berries/nuts/fungi in season.

The woodland website has lovely woods, some with streams, which cost the same as a mid range luxury car. The car will be scrap in a decade. The wood won't. It will be better than when you got it.

I had already found the woodlands.co.uk website as it happens; in fact, I rang a guy behind that site and asked about the appreciation on woodland, and he seemed to indicate that 5% was easily achievable. In fact, the examples he chatted to me about seemed to indicate returns (and I mean capital gains only) of more like 14 or 15% p.a. in recent years. (If anyone has any other anecdotals of people who have bought and sold woodland or similar at any time, that might be useful...)

If 14 or 15% is anything like reasonable, then perhaps achieving 5% p.a. (which is all it would need to do to match a savings account) is really quite likely over a number of years.

Despite my grumpiness, thanks for the replies so far!

[huw]

If 14 or 15% is anything like reasonable, then perhaps achieving 5% p.a. (which is all it would need to do to match a savings account) is really quite likely over a number of years.

Woodland prices never go down

Seiously, how much of that 15% is based on commercial woodland, whose value increases along with the amount of standing timber (i.e. the growth of the trees)? That gain will not be realisable in an amenity woodland.

Here's something about commercial woodland as an investment.

[homeless]

i hope we make this thread into our very own survival one, like the gold thread but with bows and arrows and chemical toilets

[Kurt Barlow]

i hope we make this thread into our very own survival one, like the gold thread but with bows and arrows and chemical toilets

Perhaps we can all club together and buy a hpc survivalists farm, stock it up, and fortify it

[homeless]

Perhaps we can all club together and buy a hpc survivalists farm, stock it up, and fortify it

count me in

ps: i actually own a 2 acre old water site about 2 miles from a road, has big old water tanks on it and a chainlink fence around it.I only went up there once to take a look around.i guess i could build a shack on it and get me a quad bike ehh

Edited March 5, 2008 by homeless

[@contradevian]

i hope we make this thread into our very own survival one, like the gold thread but with bows and arrows and chemical toilets

How about a sceptic tank thread!

[Kurt Barlow]

count me in

ps: i actually own a 2 acre old water site about 2 miles from a road, has big old water tanks on it and a chainlink fence around it.I only went up there once to take a look around.i guess i could build a shack on it and get me a quad bike ehh

If it is going to get as bad as some suggest we better invite Dubsie and he can accquire some 0.50 cal machine guns for perimeter defence from some of his army contacts

[Guest Steve Cook]

Anyone considered emigrating? It's New Zealand for me. I will be buying 20 acres of land in a town which is half-an-hour drive north of Auckland. The town is fairly big and Auckland is on the doorstep along with lovely local beaches. This way I don't have to live in a remote part of the UK as the land is cheap in comparison when buying with sterling. I will be mortgage free and I will be building my own house so I will never be lining the banks pockets with a penny of debt servicing money. By growing my own food and having no mortgage I will not need so much money. My primary aim is to reduce monetary consumption as for every penny you earn the tax man gets a big chunk. I plan to do two days a week in the system and five days a week for myself farming and building – the things I love. I have spent the past decade preparing for this and if we did have a serious economic shock I would be self sufficient as well so that would be a bonus.

Edit: Also, the land I have been looking at has a natural water supply and rather than paying to get hooked up to services I will be investing in renewable energy.

You have got it sussed. I have also considered NZ. Then again, I have been looking all over the place. Normandy is the latest. My wife can not, as yet, be persuaded on NZ. I think it has many advantages. Firstly, not too much by way of fossil energy resources apart form a little coal that is not the best quality. This means that as the major players in the world fight it out pointlessly for the remaining fossil fuels, NZ will hopefully fall under their radar. Secondly, NZ has a low population. Ironically, In a post peak oil world, NZ will suffer quite early on in a modern economic sense because they depend on so much of their energy being imported. However, they have the great advantage of having enough land to feed themselves. This should give them the space to step down from the oil age in something of a semblance of order. Finally, because NZ has a rather large patch of water between it and the rest of the world, they are not going to get hordes of starving urban dwellers trekking overland to find somewhere to grow food. This is not to say they won't get boat people. That's a lot easier to deal with though than hungry hordes on the march.

I must reiterate, I don't see all this happening tomorrow. It isn't even going to happen as an "event". It will just slowly, grindingly become the new reality over a number of decades.

Steve

Edited March 5, 2008 by Steve Cook

[Guest Steve Cook]

I still think it would be easier to get together and defend your suburb from maruading chav spud thieves than defend an isolated farmstead. Look at development in Uk / Europe - the village - small town was for this very reason.

I can see the point you are making Kurt and I think there is a lot of merit in it. We are heading for new, unknown territory both economically and politically.

Its difficult to navigate in the dark.....

Steve

[huw]

Secondly, NZ has a low population.

Also a low proportion of arable land (CIA World Fact Book tells me 5.5%). New Zealand's preponderance of spectacular scenery over rolling fields is, I presume, one reason they filmed the Lord of the Rings there and not in Britain

Anyway they still have more arable land per person than the UK (I make it a third of a hectare vs a tenth of a hectare) but you need to set this against the difficulties they will have with international trade once cheap air and sea transport is no longer available. Though another thing in their favour is that NZ is, I believe, one of the countries that has been taking peak oil seriously for some time.

Who can tell where will be best, really? I reckon I'll stay in rural Wales

[Kurt Barlow]

I can see the point you are making Kurt and I think there is a lot of merit in it. We are heading for new, unknown territory both economically and politically.

Its difficult to navigate in the dark.....

Steve

Anyone who thinks that in some Mad Max style chaos living 20 miles out of town will be safe must be chowing on a certain type of wild mushroom.

Where civilisation exists there is still the chance that groups of people / local govt etc may be able to organise some sort of local defence based around the police or militia. Out in the sticks its Tony Martin time.

A suburb with strong community groups is probably your best bet as this suggests stronger social cohesion. Seriously the number of groups whether they be pta's, womens institute, kids footy team will help form the foundation stones of community cooperation in a crisis.

You cant stay up 24/7 to guard the potato field.

You need community to specialise skills

Edited March 6, 2008 by Kurt Barlow

[Guest Steve Cook]

Also a low proportion of arable land (CIA World Fact Book tells me 5.5%). New Zealand's preponderance of spectacular scenery over rolling fields is, I presume, one reason they filmed the Lord of the Rings there and not in Britain

Anyway they still have more arable land per person than the UK (I make it a third of a hectare vs a tenth of a hectare) but you need to set this against the difficulties they will have with international trade once cheap air and sea transport is no longer available. Though another thing in their favour is that NZ is, I believe, one of the countries that has been taking peak oil seriously for some time.

Who can tell where will be best, really? I reckon I'll stay in rural Wales

Your'e right Huw. Also, interesting info about the arable land ration in NZ.

[Guest Steve Cook]

Found this really useful site concerning planning permission and low impact dwellings

http://www.tlio.org.uk/chapter7/diy.html

Steve

[Ologhai Jones]

Seiously, how much of that 15% is based on commercial woodland, whose value increases along with the amount of standing timber (i.e. the growth of the trees)? That gain will not be realisable in an amenity woodland.

As this whole 'buying a bit of woodland' is still very new to me, I'm still feeling my way.

The 14 - 15% thing was simply based upon a phone conversation where the guy gave me a couple of examples of bits of woodland that happen to have been bought from them and sold through them ('them' being that woodlands.co.uk site), so he could give me the buying and selling prices and the time in between.

I accept it's totally finger in the air stuff, which is why, for reasons of prudence, I knocked the '1' off the front to make about 5% from about 15%!

I have no idea whether the price of woodland is subject to such wild bubbles as, say, houses, or whether it's fairly steady. A few percent gain or loss here or there is tolerable. A few tens of percent wouldn't be nice...

If anyone has been following woodland prices over the years, perhaps they might have a better grasp on how it goes?

[cartimandua51]

I have no idea whether the price of woodland is subject to such wild bubbles as, say, houses, or whether it's fairly steady. A few percent gain or loss here or there is tolerable. A few tens of percent wouldn't be nice...

If anyone has been following woodland prices over the years, perhaps they might have a better grasp on how it goes?

I think woodlands as a whole have been pretty steady. They are one of the oldest tax shelters, dating back to the days when Britain needed oak for its navy! You can't have 100 year old oak trees without forward planning!

What is new, and I think is much more susceptible to bubbles, is the practice of splitting off 1 - 5 acre bits of amenity land. That is definitely a "leisure" (or survivalist!) luxury purchase. That's why I suggested in an earlier post that you need to be close to it.

You may be interested in this (esp if you live in the N Midlands, but it's got some interesting stuff anyway)

http://www.greenwoodforest.org.uk/publicat...ood_CW_Book.pdf

[Guest Skint Academic]

Anyone who thinks that in some Mad Max style chaos living 20 miles out of town will be safe must be chowing on a certain type of wild mushroom.

Where civilisation exists there is still the chance that groups of people / local govt etc may be able to organise some sort of local defence based around the police or militia. Out in the sticks its Tony Martin time.

A suburb with strong community groups is probably your best bet as this suggests stronger social cohesion. Seriously the number of groups whether they be pta's, womens institute, kids footy team will help form the foundation stones of community cooperation in a crisis.

It's often struck me how in the highlands you don't often get a single house here or there but are more likely to get groups of three or four. Ocassionally you do get a house all by itself, but then it's normally set it large grounds. People generally always have neighbours within walking distance. The trick is to be far enough away from the towns that it's too difficult for the townies to consider getting there, but near enough small villages or other neighbours that there is still a sense of community. But reading that webpage posted on hpc a while ago from that guy who lived through the Argentinian economic meltdown, apparently each option have their merits and drawbacks. I think it comes down to surviving in the environment that you are most comfortable in. For me, it's the mountains.

Regarding NZ though, Mr Academic and I have considered moving there instead. It seems like paradise on earth, but our heart is in the highlands of Scotland and we still have family in the UK. Also, we're not sure what the situation is over there with the white flight. Isn't there a housing bubble there as well and some local tensions with immigrants?

You cant stay up 24/7 to guard the potato field.

No, but a pack of loyal dogs can Besides which, it's not the potato field you have to worry about. These people wouldn't be doing their harvest for you but would want to come in and plunder everything inside.

[Kurt Barlow]

It's often struck me how in the highlands you don't often get a single house here or there but are more likely to get groups of three or four. Ocassionally you do get a house all by itself, but then it's normally set it large grounds. People generally always have neighbours within walking distance. The trick is to be far enough away from the towns that it's too difficult for the townies to consider getting there, but near enough small villages or other neighbours that there is still a sense of community. But reading that webpage posted on hpc a while ago from that guy who lived through the Argentinian economic meltdown, apparently each option have their merits and drawbacks. I think it comes down to surviving in the environment that you are most comfortable in. For me, it's the mountains.

Regarding NZ though, Mr Academic and I have considered moving there instead. It seems like paradise on earth, but our heart is in the highlands of Scotland and we still have family in the UK. Also, we're not sure what the situation is over there with the white flight. Isn't there a housing bubble there as well and some local tensions with immigrants?

No, but a pack of loyal dogs can Besides which, it's not the potato field you have to worry about. These people wouldn't be doing their harvest for you but would want to come in and plunder everything inside.

Dogs need feeding - meat. Then again you can always feed them any chavs you catch

[Guest Steve Cook]

I've got a plan........

My wife and I buy a plot of woodland/arable land....

We then get the plot split into smaller plots. 1/2 of them in my name and 1/2 of them in my wife's name. Each plot that belongs to me is only touched at its perimeter by one or more that belong to my wife. And vice versa.

We stick a "temporary dwelling" on one of my plots. We go through the rigmarolle of a stand-off with the local council. They eventually get an eviction order. We appeal. we lose the appeal (I have done a bit of research and have found out all of the above takes about 6 months of the council's time).

The day before the eviction. We move our temporary dwelling 100 feet to one side and, hey presto, its no longer on my land but is on my wife's land. The council has to go through all of the crap again. 6 months later we repeat the excercise....ad inifinitum......all within the law dontcha know

My guess is they eventually get sick and let sleeping dogs lie. Even of they don't, a couple of day's work moving your stuff a couple of hundered feet every six months is hardly traumatic.

whadaya think?......

steve

Edited March 6, 2008 by Steve Cook

[Guest Skint Academic]

Dogs need feeding - meat. Then again you can always feed them any chavs you catch

Ah, now that appeals to my self sufficiency yearnings. The potatoes would be the bait. It would be like a carnivorous plant that attracts flies to feed on them, thus plucking nutrients out of the air! It also reminds me of an idea that Mr Academic had.

You buy a house in the scummiest part of the Glasgow or Liverpool or some such place. One day you pull up with a big van and start loading up the place with brand new electrical goods and the very finest furniture in full view of everyone and place them inside. Then you drive off and leave the house empty. The expensive goods are placed in full view of open windows which are barricaded shut to stop people breaking in. Except that you leave the house not properly secured so that people can break in via the front door.

Now when you break into a house, you don't publicly announce what you are going to do in case you don't get back. It's not like a day trip to the mountains or a boat trip. You're not supposed to be there. If you don't come back, no one knows where you are. So within a short period of time you're going to attract the scoundrels with nefarious intentions on your property. And lo and behold they find they can break in through the front door.

They go through the hallway and walk into the main room. When they do this the inner door behind them closes shut and the floor, acting like a trap door opens, up and they drop a height into the room below breaking their legs. The trap door then closes up and the inner door opens again ready for the next burglars.

Now what you do to the burglars at this point is up to you. You can either have them try to navigate their way out of the building and avoid all the deadly traps (as in the film, 'Cube'), you could then sell video footage of them dieing slowly to sick minded people on the internet to help pay the electricity bill. Or maybe harvest their organs perhaps to sell on? Personally my favourite is to let the bodies decompose and use the methane to generate free electricity. And this isn't mutually exclusive with other options!

Sorry, I went slightly off-topic. But does anyone know how you could go about getting planning permission for this?

Edited March 6, 2008 by Skint Academic

[cartimandua51]

The day before the eviction. We move our temporary dwelling 100 feet to one side and, hey presto, its no longer on my land but is on my wife's land. The council has to go through all of the crap again. 6 months later we repeat the excercise....ad inifinitum......all within the law dontcha know

My guess is they eventually get sick and let sleeping dogs lie. Even of they don't, a couple of day's work moving your stuff a couple of hundered feet every six months is hardly traumatic.

whadaya think?......

steve

Nice one. The only problem I can see (& I know diddly squat about this!)is that they may be able to get an injunction to stop you replacing the edifice, and if you breach that injunction it's contempt of court / antisocial behaviour or whatever & they can land on you fast from a great height.

Anybody out there know the law here?

Edit

you haven't got any children over 18 to make a triangular split?

Edited March 6, 2008 by cartimandua51

[Kurt Barlow]

Ah, now that appeals to my self sufficiency yearnings. The potatoes would be the bait. It would be like a carnivorous plant that attracts flies to feed on them, thus plucking nutrients out of the air! It also reminds me of an idea that Mr Academic had.

You buy a house in the scummiest part of the Glasgow or Liverpool or some such place. One day you pull up with a big van and start loading up the place with brand new electrical goods and the very finest furniture in full view of everyone and place them inside. Then you drive off and leave the house empty. The expensive goods are placed in full view of open windows which are barricaded shut to stop people breaking in. Except that you leave the house not properly secured so that people can break in via the front door.

Now when you break into a house, you don't publicly announce what you are going to do in case you don't get back. It's not like a day trip to the mountains or a boat trip. You're not supposed to be there. If you don't come back, no one knows where you are. So within a short period of time you're going to attract the scoundrels with nefarious intentions on your property. And lo and behold they find they can break in through the front door.

They go through the hallway and walk into the main room. When they do this the inner door behind them closes shut and the floor, acting like a trap door opens, up and they drop a height into the room below breaking their legs. The trap door then closes up and the inner door opens again ready for the next burglars.

Now what you do to the burglars at this point is up to you. You can either have them try to navigate their way out of the building and avoid all the deadly traps (as in the film, 'Cube'), you could then sell video footage of them dieing slowly to sick minded people on the internet to help pay the electricity bill. Or maybe harvest their organs perhaps to sell on? Personally my favourite is to let the bodies decompose and use the methane to generate free electricity. And this isn't mutually exclusive with other options!

Sorry, I went slightly off-topic. But does anyone know how you could go about getting planning permission for this?

oo-er Mrs Academic - sounds like you have been watching too many Wes Craven films. Reminds me of the film The People Under the Stairs. Out of curiousity does Mr Academic own a pump action shotgun and a gimp suit!

Edited March 6, 2008 by Kurt Barlow