Why Does Each Forum End Up As An Race Issue

[Guest pioneer31]

I)The future will bring a whole generation of disillusioned graduates stuck in 10k McJobs.

ii)Britain doesn't value brains and never has.

iii)Going to Uni is a waste of time (you could be saving up a depost rather than saddling yourself with years of debt and then only getting the same grade of job as you would have got if you hadn't bothered)

I've been to Uni twice so I know what I'm talking about re: (iii)

There are one or two exceptions to (iii) - medicine, pharmacy, some types of engineering (but certainly not all)

[Wuluf]

Wow - I didn't know half the population were below average intelligence.where did you read that? Sounds like a pile of nonsense to me.

BTW: A elite is not the way to go if you want inventions! Inventions depend on people engaged in work! I can't name many inventors that are not engineers - Including Charles Babbage! Also, thats why you see the adverts on TV inviting you to send off for a 'inventors information pack' - Most innovations come from ordinary people - not  some form of ivory tower elite.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. "Average" intelligence - means middle (and Hey I did say that the mean is the same as the median i.e. assumed normal distribution) - I will find something another time.. But look up "median iq uk site:uk" or something like that.

2. The reason you see there adverts on TV is because, yes, anybody can invent. BUT people will invent different things depending on their level/type of education and the things they are exposed to.. So perhaps the HUGE gap between the rich and poor in the UK does serve some purpose.

3. Babbage invented something called a difference engine. And as you see here he went to Cambridge http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Babbage. His was a work of MATHEMATICS AND NOT ENGINEERING. (Note: a computer is a implentation of a theoretical general purpose computational device. i.e. He didnt need to build anything [especially not himself] to have invented and proved the idea).

4. In general the industrial revolution happened (quickly - hence revolution) as the Uk got the manpower (from somewhere ) to do a lot of work (for free). It doesnt have the manpower (will/productivity) to do so again ( I wonder why?) so trails the Germans, France, Japan, Singapore, USA, Austrians, Scandanavians etc etc in terms of technology/infrastructue.. - nothing that another 400 years of slavery wouldnt fix Ü

[oracle]

I agree pioneer.

I studied my BEng degree when there still were things like grants.

science has brought ideas about that the populous take for granted.

it is totally in tune with the idea of business...doing more work in the same/shorter space of time...enabling unit cost to fall.

governments around the globe need to wake up and realise this.

without these type of people,the salesmen will run out of work!successive products by their nature HAVE to be better than that which has gone before,this keeps the process of evolution going(and therefore the sales guys and manufacturers in employment)

[Justice]

Great Britain was a place where people once felt proud to belong, had a say, but all that has changed now as it’s been turned into UK Inc & Co and all that matters is profit, Profit at any cost. We all know that the majority of costs associated within the services or manufacturing sector is labour costs and that’s why we are now in a situation of having next to no wage inflation because HMG ensures business has a ready supply of cheap labour.

Don’t tell me about skills shortages, the only shortage is in sectors where people won’t work for peanuts. Blair has flown in thousands of IT workers from India yet I know of friends that can not find work in IT anymore as they would prefer to sweep the streets than be ripped of after spending some much time training.

The government turns a blind eye to illegal immigrants working in Hotels and we all (Think) we benefit from it because it’s cheaper when we go out there but it could be that the main stockholders of these Hotels are politician and do you think the local unskilled labour is happy about being pushed out of a job. Does HMG gets to tax more of the profit.

There are so many mini busses now running around Lincoln, ferrying illegal immigrants to and from work it’s untrue and it’s a waste of time reporting it to the police as they do nothing about it as the PC brigade is ruled by the CEO of UK Inc & Co and the only PC he knows is Profit Conscious.

Maybe we should follow the USA and legalise illegal immigrants so it’s all out in the open but what about the illegal illegal immigrant, what do we do with them and remember the world has 4bn people who would love to come and stay here. who do we stop, would it be fair to stop anyone, would it destroy the little bit of culture we have left here.

[Kayser Soze]

Viewing this forum from the other side of the world (NZ) and as one who has lived and worked in OZ (and owned property) in NZ, the problem with the UK is one of perceived overcrowding.

In OZ and NZ people generally look around and say, yes there is enough for all. This includes job opportunities and housing.

In the UK people seem to vigorously defend their little world whether it be their place on the housing ladder, their job, place on the road - good grief even their space in the supermarket (trolley rage! ).

Then they look around for someone to take the flak - generally the newcomer (jews, asians, east europeans etc).

Surely in UK there is enough to go round, isn't there?

K.S.

[Guest pioneer31]

Don’t tell me about skills shortages, the only shortage is in sectors where people won’t work for peanuts. Blair has flown in thousands of IT workers from India yet I know of friends that can not find work in IT anymore as they would prefer to sweep the streets than be ripped of after spending some much time training.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Bang on mate. I am disgusted at some of the salaries being offered for these kind of jobs. I saw an IT job for £11k, I'm not joking.

You can earn £15k answering a phone and doing a bit of typing.

[zzg113]

the problem with the UK is

....the crap weather, the chavvy population, the extortionate price of housing, the poor transport network, etc etc etc

In OZ and NZ people generally look around and say, yes there is enough for all.

I should think so!!!!

Oz population density: 3 people/sq. km

NZ population density: 15 people /sq. km

UK population density: 246 people/sq. km

This includes job opportunities

Isn't the jobs situation in NZ a bit dire?

[Guest pioneer31]

Viewing this forum from the other side of the world (NZ) and as one who has lived and worked in OZ (and owned property) in NZ, the problem with the UK is one of perceived overcrowding.

In OZ and NZ people generally look around and say, yes there is enough for all. This includes job opportunities and housing.

In the UK people seem to vigorously defend their little world whether it be their place on the housing ladder, their job, place on the road - good grief even their space in the supermarket  (trolley rage! ).

Then they look around for someone to take the flak - generally the newcomer (jews, asians, east europeans etc).

Surely in UK there is enough to go round, isn't there?

K.S.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Depends which part of the UK you look at.

Greater Manchester feels like a battery farm, whereas in the middle of wales you have a feeling of space.

Guess which one I live in.

[oracle]

you state a good point justice.

manufacture is labour intensive.

car industry 20 odd years ago is a great example.

and what did robots/automation do??increased productivity.

but someone thought these machines up.(yes there were initial job losses but from a single-business point of view it increased their profits,so was beneficial)

this is the only way we can compete with low cost countries,and scientists are the key to it.

[Crazy88s]

....the crap weather, the chavvy population, the extortionate price of housing, the poor transport network, etc etc etc

I should think so!!!!

Oz population density: 3 people/sq. km

NZ population density: 15 people /sq. km

UK population density: 246 people/sq. km

Isn't the jobs situation in NZ a bit dire?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OMG

I did not relaise we were that overcrowded.

Jesus H Christ! Right then wheres my passport.

[Justice]

this is the only way we can compete with low cost countries,and scientists are the key to it.

You must be joking these scientists will have us all running around soon with silicon chips up our a$$ and then move onto bio-babies, some with no brains and strong mussels whilst other with massive brains and big a$$es to sit on. Those that don’t agree with this will all be ran out of town as racists or something like that.

What happend to my free nuclear electricity ?

It’s all about profit, we are sheep if we let em

[zzg113]

OMG

I did not relaise we were that overcrowded.

Jesus H Christ! Right then wheres my passport.

C88s, on a world scale the UK is not that crowded: Monaco, for example, has 16,329 people/sq. km. So it's all relative.

[Wuluf]

There are plenty of brains in Britain. It's just that they see what a s**hole this place is and then go and offer their services to the US/Aus/NZ/Japan etc leaving behind the basket weavers.

Countries like these VALUE brains and skills and thus benefit economically from them. Britain (until recently) had the honour of picking up the tab for their education.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually as business doesnt generally pay op-dollar for science graduates and as students fail too see real prospects in these fields science uptake i nthe UK is declining (as a %) at Uni.. Check google for the dire state of chemistry depts. Quite a high proportin of them are closing.

People here do not want to study science. Did you? Or mnany on this board. I doubt it. (poll anyone?)

[rainbow]

I recently e-mailed William Lewis, Business Editor of The Sunday Times, when he was crowing on about a Welsh bus company who have started hiring bus drivers from Estonia because they couldn't recruit locally (of course nobody bothered to find out if the company had actually advertised locally first).

I asked him if the Sunday Times decides to advertise for a Business Editor in Estonia, would it be because he is no longer willing to do the job, or just that he doesn't want to do it for the minimum wage. I never received a reply!

All this massive immigration is really about, is giving the UK an economic edge over the rest of Europe so that Gordon Brown can crow about our fantastic economy. They don't give a toss about the social consequences because neither them or their children will have to live with it. They will be comfortably ensconsed on their family estates which we are presently paying. (I hear it's very nice in Tuscany, isn't it Tony?)

[oracle]

I know you're joking justice,but your closer to the truth than you realise!!!

[Wuluf]

Yep, the indegionous Englishman is a thikkie. Industrial revolution, mass wealth creation law, standing frim against most - commers and democracy all just luck.

The 'UK lack of education' gave the world the internet, jet engine, the first computer, the first reliable watch, longtidude, steam, tv, radar, mortgages, property rights, civil rights, mass production, test tube baby, genome decoding (not USA) sewers, water treatment.............. HOW DID WE MANAGE ALL ON OUR OWN. Help we need immigrants please.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

p.s. Not that I wnat to start an argument but.... A better reply would have been one that highlighted the apparent hole in my argument.. i.e. "But do we need that many 'more than average intelligent' people in a country".. The reply to that is NO.. But the motivation tpo employ immigrants is there for businesses who wish to maximise output (in the shortest possible amount of time)..

Switerland until recently insisted on a degree for most technical work permits.. That meant that those entering the country would improve the average level of education in the country. I have always said that controlled immigration is the solution. Blaming immigrants for the UK's problems(and then stoping immigration) is not.

[Justice]

Oracle

No i have seen and we are not in a world that we think we are !

Maybe i should remember that more often

Regards

[Big Ears]

If there is so called 'Mass Immigration' it is (as always) because that there aren't any 'nationals' willing to do the CRAP jobs.

Beleive me, the UK is NOT the most popular place to come any more. It's just because the Brits think that flipping burgers or cleaning is beneath them (as in the sixties with transport work).

The 'foreigners' are happy to work for minimum wage - and the locals are not! - simple supply and demand!

Stop f****ing whinging about foreigners, and get off your ass and get a job! There is NO WAY these people are gonna go away as long as they are prepared to accept a lower wage and do the SHIT jobs that the indigenous population is not prepared to do. Good on them! I hope we see many many more.

If you think that it is they who are driving that HPI then you are living in cockoo-land!

[Guest wrongmove]

Yep, the indegionous Englishman is a thikkie. Industrial revolution, mass wealth creation law, standing frim against most - commers and democracy all just luck.

The 'UK lack of education' gave the world the internet, jet engine, the first computer, the first reliable watch, longtidude, steam, tv, radar, mortgages, property rights, civil rights, mass production, test tube baby, genome decoding (not USA) sewers, water treatment.............. HOW DID WE MANAGE ALL ON OUR OWN. Help we need immigrants please.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not that the average intelligence in UK is particularly high - it is not. But the UK definitely breeds a lot more geniuses than average. Even now our engineers and scientists are highly thought of. But there is not much average about the people who invented these things listed by DB above.

[Sonny]

1. The Anglo-Saxons are US/UK/Oz/Nz.. But there are no Anglo-Saxon countries in Europe.. I cant believe you think that!

2. No. As one example Tutonic (Germanic) culture has consitently show itself to be superior to the Anglo-Saxon one. Look at the stability and wealth of Germany, Austria and Switzerland

)..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wrong !! Germany has one of the Highest Unemployment rates in Europe. Been so since the early 1990's...

[oracle]

if you want to see what european development will be like for us post enlargement,take a look at german re-unification and the consequences!

I see the EU want us to stop claiming our rebate AND fork out something like an extra £5bn for the privilege too!!!

anyone still voting labour????

[Big Ears]

It is not that the average intelligence in UK is particularly high - it is not. But the UK definitely breeds a lot more geniuses than average. Even now our engineers and scientists are highly thought of. But there is not much average about the people who invented these things listed by DB above.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WRONG! Go back a little further in history and look at who developed most of the basic elements of modern civilisation.

It is only because the western europeans raided and looted the wealth of other countries that they were able to fund the development of 'industrialisation' and the subsequent discoveries/inventions.

STOP kidding yousrself, and being led by popular media - do a bit of reserach and READ HISTORY!

[Wuluf]

Wrong !! Germany has one of the Highest Unemployment rates in Europe. Been so since the early 1990's...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. German Unemployment is calculated using a more honest method than that in the UK

2. German jobs tend to be real ones - as opposed to UK McDs jobs.

3. I said wealthy and stable. Wealth as in Standard of Living. Stable as in NO booms and busts (apart from between WWI and WWII due to you know what). UK has been in boom and bust mode since WWII and in has lower standard of living than germany. (most) Employees have six months notice in contracts of employment. And if you are vunerable (e.g. disabled) and doing a good job it is REALLY hard to sack you. No more worrying about the mortgage. Germany is the #1 exporter on the planet.

4. Being unemployed in Germany is not the same as in the UK.. Dole in the Uk is in the region of 50 GBP per week (or so).. In Germany you get about 66% of your final salary. i.e. If I get (lets say) 3000 GBP p/m after tax - dole is equal to 2000. Plus insurance means that peoplestill have access to 1st class medical care.. And believe it or not people stilll want to work. The last person who I told that too in the UK said that if that was true in the UK he would ensure that he lost his job tomorrow. Taxis are 99.9% mercedes C classes. Houses buy/rent are cheaper. Prices have gone up since the Euro was introduced. Previously prices were similar to those (apart from housing and without the elongated tails) in the USA.

Things are not perfect in Germany. The costs of the Euro(-zone), East Germany and slowness in taking up new technologies means that sacrifices need to be made. Germany has taken shocks to its economic system the size of which only they out of all european economies could bear.At one point they were paying 1/3 of the EU budget (about 1999)

If england had the type of industry and success that Germany has you woould never hear the end of it.

You might find this interesting

article on germany's current problems

The following is a Cut&Paste job of an "old work"

he UK's strength lies in presentation. It would take years (25) at least of continuous decline or more before German infrastructure reached the state of the UKs.. (AUDI are thinking of developing a separate suspension system for the UKs crap roads).. The German economy passed the UKS in the 19th century and has maintained that position since.. (Remember that germany (west) subsumed a entitre country (east germany) and brought its living standards up to gertman one.. [an equvalent task would be beyound the UK]). Furthermore germany is practically funding the EU.. (It pays I think between 25-33% of the EU budget).. [point of note that Germany is the biggest foreign investor in film production in Hollywood].. The Deutechmark broke the back of Sterling in the ERM fiasco.. [i.e. The Bundesbanks refusal to adjust German intterest rates forced the puny pound to devalue] Anyx informed reader would know that the UK and German "Market Socialist" economy are not even in the same ballpark..

IN 2000 Germany was an 11.7 billion net contrbutor to the EU.. (UK?? 6.2 billion)

Like you said you dont understand too much about economics.. For a girl who argues a lot about the merits of economic systems it is (like I said before) disturbing..

The articles demonstrate that Market Socialism is a form of government that exists has been more successful in the past.

All projections that Market Socialism has failed refer to future events. The bottom line is that TODAY Germany is better off and a fairer society (economically) than every Anglo Saxon one. Germany is an export led economy.. Personal Credit (creating debt levels like in the UK/US) is not as common.. The UK/US have only performed better in the recent recession because of consumer spending.. Which is unsustainable. But the fundamentals of the German economy are better than the UK/US.. So in the long run it will outperform the UK.. The UK (with 3%) and US (5%) have huge trade deficits.. Germany has a Trade surplus..

Your assumptions (and those of many UK commentators) are laced with the oft made (UK) pious assumption that the Germans (or whomever) behave as the do through a level of ignorance.. (i.e. they are wrong and dont know it) as opposed to being open to the idea that maybe they are doing what they do because they have considered our system and have come to the conclusion that theirs is simply better.

A girl repeated to me the other day the oft repeated mantra that the UK has the worlds 4th biggest economy (behind USA, Japan and Germany) - thereby inferring that we must be well off. Again a (UK) marketing trick.. This relies on exchange rates and purchasing parity. I.e. If your salary is doubled AND simultaneously prices of products are doubled you are no better off. The important aspect of wealth is not notional monetary values BUT instead the accessibility of "goods" to an individual. i.e. The Australia is wealthier than it was 30 years ago because 1. health is better. 2. More people have TVs.. 3. More people have cars. etc etc

The problem with living standards is the absolute accessibility of markers of wealth in the UK is lower than in Germany AND the distribution of the "wealth" is less uniform.

Housing, Healthcare, Holidays, Food, Services (phone, tradesmen), Bank Accounts are not commonly available to all.. Even the London rush hour commute is unreasonable [it is only like that because of the concentration of BLUE CHIPS in the city of London - which benefits few i.e. The ruling classes. There is no reason why Banks, Law, Marketing, Business Consultancy all have to be so close to each other than for reasons of class/old-boy-networks/prestige ALL outmoded and unnecessary concepts in a modern country].

Property prices in the UK.. [1st time buyers] Crap NHS (I told a German friend of mine that often at Hospital A&E you have to wait for hours.. She couldn't believe it..).. Do you really believe the NHS (equivalent) it is like that in other European countries..? When a famous French actress announced in the French press that she was coming to live and work in London Pres. Chirac noted glibly that "he hope she doesn't get sick [and have to rely on our NHS]". Even access to bank accounts are restricted.. Proof required of a multitude of things.. The roads are not straight or flat and are pitted with holes.. Service is shoddy.. [and NOT service related to presentation i.e. "please", "thanks", "sorry" what the UK is good at.. BUT service in terms of tangible results.. does it work. has it been done properly.. how quickly can you fix it.. all sub standard].. Why do the most houses here have draughts.. As a French friend of mine says.. "IN the UK it is common to boast that a house is Victorian or Georgian.. It has character.. Do you know how many advancement in house construction have been made in the last few hundred years.. A house which is 150 years old should not be a badge of honour BUT should be knocked down. (but UK programming is insidious and effective)." IN the UK it is possible to be cold inside a house due to the poor construction.. Food in the UK is tasteless.. Excessive processing, additives and processing mean that the quality is low. Go and eat a steak abroad..

Standards of manufacturing are also sub-standard.. Why can the UK/US not construct reliable/well-engineered cars?? It is not because they choose not to.. It is because they cant.. The UK is the only "large" European country with no large (globally competitive) car company.. Ditto electronics.. Britain has two industries which are motors of growth (and internationally competitive)

1. Banking..

An accident of history, timezones, US-investment and the UK's colonial past.. BUT note there are NO globally competitive UK investments banks.. NONE. International competition led to them being swallowed by US, Swiss, Dutch and German banks. [e.g. GMT (timezones ensure UK trades during both Asia's and US business day), Gold (price is set in London daily)]

2. Biotechnology.. - the only sterling industry left in this country..

Not to mention the productivity gap (deficit) that the UK has with every other 1st world nation. i.e WE ARE WORSE at our jobs than all the others..

Which brings me to Crime which is exacerbated by the disparities that UK style capitalism brings..

At the end of the day the majority of people in the UK live a peasant lifestyle.. (I was shocked when I was first told this by a few people in the Netherlands. Their exact statement was "the UK.. Yes.. but everything is lower class in the UK".. It took me a while to see that it is indeed the case that the majority here life a life that is worse than is has to be because of their own tacit support of a system based on class and economic inequality..

I lived in Germany and Japan for 5 1/2 years and it amazes me that people here simply accept the lot foisted upon them by their leaders..

So when you consider the problems that Germany has you need to also reflect upon the endemic problems that are to be found principally in the UK (but also in the US)..

These things may seem like dry facts (or the rantings of a stranger online):. The problem is that the realities will hit home to you and anybody else who reads this were they to fall sick, are unemployed, buy a property, need a dentist.. Or maybe simply when they wonder where their salaries go each month.. [based on the fact that the average salary in the UK is 20-odd thousand pounds. If it is not you who suffers a lack of access it is your neighbour.. And that lack leads to other Standard of Living deficiencies such as crime.. ].. [why do cars most quality have locking wheel nuts..? ]

Some German trivia,

1. 40% of Americans are Germans.. All those names you see in TV with suffixes -berg, -berger, -stein, -utter, -stern, -man(n), -heim are German.. IN fact the typical "beach" he-man/woman look on the west coast [where most germans are] is German.. (square jaw, tall, blond, high -flat forehead.. ).. So a lot of the reflected glory for US performance (which the UK tries to claim as its own) should be redirected to Germany! (http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/7741.html)

2. (sporting prowess) Germany has never failed to qualify for a world cup. It has won 3 worlds cups. 3 euro championships and been in 7 WC and 5 EC finals.. (UK by comparison 1 final).. The Germans reached the semi finals 12/15 times. UK twice. Sport is "just sport" BUT as usual when results count (rather than presentation the Germans outperform the UK).. We have the heroes of 66 Charlton, Hurst.. The Germans have 10's if not at least 100.. Same for the Olympics. Germany always outperforms the UK..

3. Greatest ever briton was winston churchill.. In truth, other than war [abhorant], writing [subjective], the UK didnt have many people who contributed globally in a positive way.. Germany on the other hand.. Martin Luther

Karl Marx, Willy Brandt, Johann Sebastian Bach, Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Johannes Gutenberg (Man of the millennium), Otto von Bismarck, Albert Einstein, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Ludwig van Beethoven, Wilhelm Conrad Röntgen, Immanuel Kant, Friedrich Nietzsche, Arthur Schopenhauer, Richard Wagner

.. and so on... .. Study maths at university (to advanced levels) and you will find that germans created maths as we know it.. (a good proportion of the original research is in german - go check in a univeristy library).. Even now the Germans outperform the UK where it matters (http://www.eubusiness.com/imported/2001/04/44259).. List of world changing philosophers..http://www.cftech.com/BrainBank/OTHERREFERENCE/PHILOSOPHY/MajWrldPhilsop3.html NOTE how many Germans.. (and how few English).. IN fact look at any list of major scientific or philosophical advancements and you will find significantly more Germans than English..

Look at the Nobel Prizes (science [tangible results]).. More Germans then English.. http://www.nobel.se/

The point is that the impression that people have here that the UK is somehow comparable (even better) than Germany is a myth..

The German "economic miracle" is a direct result of having a market socialist economy. Germany is more prosperous and this shows itself in any objective measurement and manifests itself in sport, science, wealth, standards..

Anyway.. That's enough for now..

I hope that made sense..

[Crazy88s]

Wuluf,

Outstanding post.

In engineering which is my field the UK has been decimated by short term, lets take the profits now attitude ie conglomerates expecting 30% returns and increasing every year, where as in places like Germany there is a cluture of re-investment and such things as R&D budgets.

It is very sad that much of what you say is so true, the UK's only saving grace is that there are some very creative engineers and scientists here , well they have to be when they have to work in appauling conditions.

[Guest muttley]

Wuluf....Ah! That's were you're wrong,see.Mozart was Austrian!