Conversation In The Office

[Zaranna]

buying a place and would reduce the affordability (ignoring arguments about house prices....).

Earning £13K to £15K, can I ask, what was the point of that to go £15K into debt..... with respect, I understand the whole fulfilment stuff, but I remain extremely sceptical of graduates from real universities with real degrees who can't find a job - my own brother got himself a Desmond from one of the lesser Russell Universities, all of his peers are on £30K plus now - and he graduated in 1999. None are rocket scientists. All put the effort in.

Sorry to sound cynical, but something's a bit odd here.

Not odd at all. But your brother graduated in 1999. My sisters graduated in 2004 and 2005. Fees and student loans - BIG difference. I'd say it's you who seems a bit odd here: you don't seem to know what the maths is - do you not know about how student loan funding changed between 1999 and 2000-plus? I'm talking about starting salaries, too, not salaries 6 years on as with your brother. My sisters live in the north. VERY few graduate jobs paying starting salaries above 15k in the north. NO graduate schemes. They would need to move to the south to get better jobs; do work experience; not easy with big student loans. Where are these graduate jobs that you can get without any work experience? Apart from accountancy and law training schemes, and a few consulting jobs for Oxbridge graduates, any graduate job now needs work experience as a prerequisite.

Surely others on this board can corroborate my sisters' experiences on the job market here?

I have my own undergraduates, too - as an example, 8 of my "charges" who last year got good university degrees in a social science subject - one has only now just got an internship after graduating last year; she had a First by the way. Another is trying to get a training contract to become a solicitor - she goes for positions and there are 500 people for 10 jobs; she was just amazing and I keep writing her wonderful references but there are just too many applicants for too few places. All but one of the 8 are working in short-term non-graduate jobs. These are kids from Cambridge, not media studies graduates with 2:2s!! They are not doing something "wrong". The jobs just are not there for them.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Zaranna

[Rachman]

Not everyone wants to suck the corporate c0ck.

True, but not everyone wants to be in debt forever too. So if you don't, don't moan about it. I am quite entertained that people have persistently said I am way off beam and that I don't have a clue, but somehow I manage to come back with the data to back it up and the best that comes in is that I must be sucking c0ck - no, I prefer to see myself like most hookers do, the client pays for the room, I am always looking to see if another pimp pays more and I am fckuing the clients over, not the other way round. But each to their own, I suppose. For my filthy behaviour, I get a house, car, hopefully to be able to retire at 40 and I will hope to get out without a dose....

Sometimes you dance with the devil to get what you want out of it..... - it would be nice to decide to eat mung beans and do body painting with Amazonian tribes, but there ain't many of them in Croydon.....

Zaranna, our kid was getting £20K then, working for an industrial in the Midlands. All of his contemporaries went back north and all of them started (or were on within 12 months) £20K plus.

Of the recent graduates I know well (2004), one's a Durham waster with a Douglas and he's making £25K now 4 months into his first proper job (plus OT). He had to go to Dublin to get it though.

I am interviewing Cambridge and Oxford grads at the moment for NQ jobs as lawyers, mostly excellent then the odd paper genius and utterly useless when you meet them - however a Cambridge grad will walk a training contract if she's done her research - it's simply a numbers game and she's way ahead of the rest before she starts - if she's not getting interviews, then she's doing a bizarre CV - at all the big firms she would get an interview unless it's a very freaky remainder of the CV [and that's near as dammit fact].

I got on my bike to earn the money, lots of people do. They don't just come to you - if I had stayed in my Northern mill town I would have earned sod all and been in debt too - guess what, I moved. Can I also ask why they were not doing placements in their university holidays - experience done - I guess you will tell me they were oversubscribed - so how did all those others get on them.... ?

Edited May 24, 2006 by Rachman

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

.. and the best that comes in is that I must be sucking c0ck

I'm not suggesting you are smoking the big man's meat pipe (I've done it myself when I've wanted to give my earnings a boost), but merely responding to your exasperation that 'why isn't everyone who can earn 100K, earning 100K?'

It's a pretty depressing state of affairs if the corporate world is the only path to home ownership.

[Rachman]

I'm not suggesting you are smoking the big man's meat pipe (I've done it myself when I've wanted to give my earnings a boost), but merely responding to your exasperation that 'why isn't everyone who can earn 100K, earning 100K?'

It's a pretty depressing state of affairs if the corporate world is the only path to home ownership.

It's not, sparky, brickie, plumber, roofer, mechanic with own garage, lots of jobs, but people seem to think that a graduate 'ought' to get paid more because they were bright - it used to be the case, but these days the entire thing;'s been massively devalued by monkey degrees in monkey subjects and too many people who would never have got in the first place when most degrees were 'worth' something.

[Zaranna]

I got on my bike to earn the money, lots of people do. They don't just come to you - if I had stayed in my Northern mill town I would have earned sod all and been in debt too - guess what, I moved. Can I also ask why they were not doing placements in their university holidays - experience done - I guess you will tell me they were oversubscribed - so how did all those others get on them.... ?

They worked in their holidays (and during term) in shops and cafes to afford to live at university, so couldn't do "placements". (Again, "placements" require parents who will subsidise you to do them).

[frugalista]

I have my own undergraduates, too - as an example, 8 of my "charges" who last year got good university degrees in a social science subject - one has only now just got an internship after graduating last year; she had a First by the way. Another is trying to get a training contract to become a solicitor - she goes for positions and there are 500 people for 10 jobs; she was just amazing and I keep writing her wonderful references but there are just too many applicants for too few places. All but one of the 8 are working in short-term non-graduate jobs. These are kids from Cambridge, not media studies graduates with 2:2s!! They are not doing something "wrong". The jobs just are not there for them.

Interesting. I'd hesitate to call this a long term trend as it sounds just like 1991 - 1994.

Perhaps it's just a recession, even if the official figures don't yet reflect it.

If they do something vaguely useful for the next few years I'm sure things will pick up.

frugalista

[libitina]

And what would a £100k salary buy you in most parts of the country? A newbuild 3/4 bed semi on a boring identikit estate?

Edit: I meant £100k

Edited May 24, 2006 by libitina

[Rachman]

They worked in their holidays (and during term) in shops and cafes to afford to live at university, so couldn't do "placements". (Again, "placements" require parents who will subsidise you to do them).

no they don't. They mostly pay.

All of the placement people I know got paid. Whether they worked at Allders, P&G, banks, law firms, industrials (in fact they all got company cars too...... - great fun at 21). They all got accommodation covered too if it was nowhere near home.

You should already be familiar with this - there are tens of thousands of people who get on these schemes and get paid each summer, so I don't really believe that one. Even the lad who went home to work in the local paint factory chemicals lab, got paid normal wages for it. And let's be honest, it's a bit rich to be £15K in debt and not to find an extra £1K to subsidise you for a month even if you are NOT being paid for it. That's just daft when it's what you need to get a job.

And what would a £100k salary buy you in most parts of the country? A newbuild 3/4 bed semi on a boring identikit estate?

Edit: I meant £100k

£5.5K a month, depending on your risk and deposit, gets you comfortably a £300K-£400K mortgage even if there's no other income - the risk being obvious - stability of income and replacing it if you lose your job. It then leaves you over £2.5K to live on.

Frugalista, I'd call it oversupply of overqualified, underexperienced talent with collective delusions having been misled by the system - at a time when guess what, we have supported our own economy with 300,000 tradesmen from elsewhere who are busy making far more money than our McGraduates.... - simple fact is, we have too many people who think they are better than they probably are (oh, the irony....) and they think a piece of paper is going to be the magic route into good money when it ought to be blatantly obvious there are not and never were going to be enough 'graduate' jobs for them..... - so the effect is making 'lesser' jobs require a graduate qualification.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Rachman

[Zaranna]

no they don't. They mostly pay.

All of the placement people I know got paid. Whether they worked at Allders, P&G, banks, law firms, industrials (in fact they all got company cars too...... - great fun at 21). They all got accommodation covered too if it was nowhere near home.

You should already be familiar with this - there are tens of thousands of people who get on these schemes and get paid each summer, so I don't really believe that one. Even the lad who went home to work in the local paint factory chemicals lab, got paid normal wages for it. And let's be honest, it's a bit rich to be £15K in debt and not to find an extra £1K to subsidise you for a month even if you are NOT being paid for it. That's just daft when it's what you need to get a job.

£5.5K a month, depending on your risk and deposit, gets you comfortably a £300K-£400K mortgage even if there's no other income - the risk being obvious - stability of income and replacing it if you lose your job. It then leaves you over £2.5K to live on.

Frugalista, I'd call it oversupply of overqualified, underexperienced talent with collective delusions having been misled by the system - at a time when guess what, we have supported our own economy with 300,000 tradesmen from elsewhere who are busy making far more money than our McGraduates.... - simple fact is, we have too many people who think they are better than they probably are (oh, the irony....) and they think a piece of paper is going to be the magic route into good money when it ought to be blatantly obvious there are not and never were going to be enough 'graduate' jobs for them..... - so the effect is making 'lesser' jobs require a graduate qualification.

Seriously, you are joking here though, aren't you? The only person even I knew at university who got paid to be on a placement was the one who landed a summer job at JP Morgan. Where are these placements that pay you to go on them....????? Now? In 2006?? I must be living in some completely different country.

[AFineMess]

I lived in London in the late 90s, as I've said, and 350 per month house share in zone 2?? - you're joking, right? Most of the people I knew were paying 400 pcm just to live in someone's boxroom in zone 4 - and that was considered a good deal!

I lived in London too in the late 90s (still do in fact), and I paid £300 pcm for a room in a very large flat in a mansion block in zone 2. I did have to look hard for about 3 months to find it though - there were many tiny boxes asking £400+ pcm, which I thought was ridiculous.

better to save anything left at the end of the month in an ISA.

Save at the start of the month. It's the only way.

[frugalista]

Frugalista, I'd call it oversupply of overqualified, underexperienced talent with collective delusions having been misled by the system - at a time when guess what, we have supported our own economy with 300,000 tradesmen from elsewhere who are busy making far more money than our McGraduates.... - simple fact is, we have too many people who think they are better than they probably are (oh, the irony....) and they think a piece of paper is going to be the magic route into good money when it ought to be blatantly obvious there are not and never were going to be enough 'graduate' jobs for them..... - so the effect is making 'lesser' jobs require a graduate qualification.

I don't disagree with you -- the above phenomenon is definitely also a real one. I think university is becoming less popular as a consequence. But I also think that graduates are feeling a general economic squeeze.

This idea that "all degrees are devalued" is a bit suspect. If an employer can't distinguish a 'Douglas' in Peace Studies from Spunkbridge University from a 'Damian' in Economics from Oxbridge then one has to wonder, is the employer even qualified to hold their job?

frugalista

[scruffian]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see the point in pay off a student debt voluntarily.

It rises at the rate of inflation, so surely you are better off with the cash in an isa?

No-one is going to come knocking for that money - it comes out of your wages like NI so you hardly notice.

[dnd]

The quality of 'graduates' nowadays is appauling IMO - everybody's got a degree

Can understand why there are no graduate schemes anymore - it's mainly 'word of mouth' now for the best jobs...

[surfcat]

The quality of 'graduates' nowadays is appauling IMO - everybody's got a degree

Can understand why there are no graduate schemes anymore - it's mainly 'word of mouth' now for the best jobs...

Perhaps they should make a new degree entitled, "how to spell appalling"

[Rustica]

Re: graduates paying back their student loans. There is an interesting report at http://www.ifs.org.uk/comms/comm98.pdf

It's a review of the 3 main political parties' different policies on student funding and along the way it discusses the variation in the amount of time it will take to pay back the student loans in different categories of graduates. For example, under labour's new system it calculates that 3.1-3.3% (from low-income and high-income families due to means-testing) of men won't have paid off the debt after 25 years and 58.1-54.6% of women (whereas under the potential tory system it is 18.8-2.9% and 81.4-50.3%).

Have a look at the lovely plots on pages 49 onwards showing the distribution of graduates' wages compared with non-graduates - total over a lifetime and annual wages over time. The median and 1st and 3rd quantiles are shown. It might be interesting to relate these to house prices i.e. what are half or 3/4 of graduates and non-graduates going to be able to afford at different ages? Does that make current house prices seem sensible or not?

Personally, at 25 I haven't paid any SL back yet as I have been doing (funded) postgraduate study. My DH has been working for almost 3 years but the amount he has paid back is less than the interest that has been added on. We owe about £24k between us in student loans and have a large proportion of that in savings, but why pay them back early when we don't have to? We are earning interest and can spend the money if we want. Better to think of the payments as a graduate tax that might magically stop one day.

[Chrysalis]

So top 20 universities and in sensible courses. I am quite frankly staggered (if they got 2:1s or 2:2s) as to why they have not got themselves on a decent graduate scheme. They have done something seriously wrong to have been at top universities and out with nothing of any use (financially).

As for rent - Loot in 1999 and W Hampstead brought out a lot of good flat- and houseshares for that sort money....

You say there is no incentive to pay off student debt, how shortsighted is that - carrying that debt would stop people buying a place and would reduce the affordability (ignoring arguments about house prices....).

Earning £13K to £15K, can I ask, what was the point of that to go £15K into debt..... with respect, I understand the whole fulfilment stuff, but I remain extremely sceptical of graduates from real universities with real degrees who can't find a job - my own brother got himself a Desmond from one of the lesser Russell Universities, all of his peers are on £30K plus now - and he graduated in 1999. None are rocket scientists. All put the effort in.

Sorry to sound cynical, but something's a bit odd here.

Easily explainable blairs idea of having more graduates means more per available job increasing competition for work. The "REAL" jobs dont pay 20k+ for young people and the 20k+ is a only a small % nationwide. Sorry but you sound like one of those people deatched from realilty. My own experience suggests sub 15k is the norm now days for early 20s.

Not odd at all. But your brother graduated in 1999. My sisters graduated in 2004 and 2005. Fees and student loans - BIG difference. I'd say it's you who seems a bit odd here: you don't seem to know what the maths is - do you not know about how student loan funding changed between 1999 and 2000-plus? I'm talking about starting salaries, too, not salaries 6 years on as with your brother. My sisters live in the north. VERY few graduate jobs paying starting salaries above 15k in the north. NO graduate schemes. They would need to move to the south to get better jobs; do work experience; not easy with big student loans. Where are these graduate jobs that you can get without any work experience? Apart from accountancy and law training schemes, and a few consulting jobs for Oxbridge graduates, any graduate job now needs work experience as a prerequisite.

Surely others on this board can corroborate my sisters' experiences on the job market here?

I have my own undergraduates, too - as an example, 8 of my "charges" who last year got good university degrees in a social science subject - one has only now just got an internship after graduating last year; she had a First by the way. Another is trying to get a training contract to become a solicitor - she goes for positions and there are 500 people for 10 jobs; she was just amazing and I keep writing her wonderful references but there are just too many applicants for too few places. All but one of the 8 are working in short-term non-graduate jobs. These are kids from Cambridge, not media studies graduates with 2:2s!! They are not doing something "wrong". The jobs just are not there for them.

Yeah people inside the M25 assume the rest of the country is the same in terms of job prospects and salary levels.

[okonu]

We still take graduate trainees, usually 2-4 from UK (Oxford normally) and 10-16 or so from China (Tsinghua and St Johns mostly)

Numbers haven't increased for past 15 years, yet # of graduates has. Actually, you can sort of tell the state of UK graduate job market by who we recruit (we are looking for same quality as top investment banks, but pay far less, but offer much more interesting work) In the late 90's we even had to stoop to some Durham graduates, now it is back to very high quality Oxford. Starting salary is around 20k plus housing provided for - which for UK grads is "just OK" but for the Chinese graduates? Wow, they bite our arm off, and they are good. We haven't gone all China as want to keep binational culture

[Rachman]

This idea that "all degrees are devalued" is a bit suspect. If an employer can't distinguish a 'Douglas' in Peace Studies from Spunkbridge University from a 'Damian' in Economics from Oxbridge then one has to wonder, is the employer even qualified to hold their job?

frugalista

Most degrees are not Damians in Rocket Science at Oxford, they are closer to the made up jokes at a lot of former polys with plausible names - which drags down the value of a degree for most.

If I said I have a media and business degree from Oxford you would think great, even if you then find out it's from the Poly that people try to hide is a Poly (not sure id they get that course, but the point's the same). The same with UCL, looks good till you work out it's in Preston. a lot of HR people don't have a clue - they gave me two Oxford Brookes CVs this year - cheeky from their consultants as each one had written, Oxford University, Brookes.... - I have yet to deal with those agents.

I still don't get this unpaid experience schemes.

Of the 2004/2005 graduates I know personally (we'll take out Oxbridge and Durham and Bristol)

UCL (Preston !) graduate - found work experience that paid £100 a week clear (covered his costs)

Manchester Poly graduate - work experience with car and petrol account

Leeds graduate - £130 a week to work for a law firm for two weeks and taken on the p1ss every night by them and all lunches paid for (London)

Surrey graduate - 3 months in manufacturing - Ford Focus and £300 a week

Nottingham graduate - a month working for an industrial, they covered rent and £80 a week.

None of them had nepotism into the job - I think your undergrads just aren't doing it right - for those above, I know of 3 or 4 more who went home and told their parents that they could not find a career experience scheme and bummed around with their mates (these are mainly brothers and sisters of my peers so I have to be slightly careful what I say )

[abaxas]

Most degrees are not Damians in Rocket Science at Oxford, they are closer to the made up jokes at a lot of former polys with plausible names - which drags down the value of a degree for most.

If I said I have a media and business degree from Oxford you would think great, even if you then find out it's from the Poly that people try to hide is a Poly (not sure id they get that course, but the point's the same). The same with UCL, looks good till you work out it's in Preston. a lot of HR people don't have a clue - they gave me two Oxford Brookes CVs this year - cheeky from their consultants as each one had written, Oxford University, Brookes.... - I have yet to deal with those agents.

I still don't get this unpaid experience schemes.

Of the 2004/2005 graduates I know personally (we'll take out Oxbridge and Durham and Bristol)

UCL (Preston !) graduate - found work experience that paid £100 a week clear (covered his costs)

Manchester Poly graduate - work experience with car and petrol account

Leeds graduate - £130 a week to work for a law firm for two weeks and taken on the p1ss every night by them and all lunches paid for (London)

Surrey graduate - 3 months in manufacturing - Ford Focus and £300 a week

Nottingham graduate - a month working for an industrial, they covered rent and £80 a week.

None of them had nepotism into the job - I think your undergrads just aren't doing it right - for those above, I know of 3 or 4 more who went home and told their parents that they could not find a career experience scheme and bummed around with their mates (these are mainly brothers and sisters of my peers so I have to be slightly careful what I say )

I'm sorry to burst your bricks and mortar uni bubble but...

You can now get a non honours degree from Newcastle Uni for pure attendance! No work required apart from getting out of bed.

Sorry for the bad news but all degrees are worthless now .. (like GSCEs A levels etc)

[JustYield]

Sorry for the bad news but all degrees are worthless now .. (like GSCEs A levels etc)

Not all. What you might see is a flight to quality, pushing the pressure back to the A-levels (or further).

A Douglas or Desmond from Oxford or Cambridge, provided you've done some other things, is more impressive than a Damian from, well anywhere really. (Except the OU: you've got to admire OU grads).

JY

[Als]

No, but I paid my debts off whilst having those experiences.

Oh I see, it's all about adventure and life enhancing experiences then they ought to be able to suspend reality whilst they mess about finding themselves..... sorry no, that's not a grown up attitude and I stand by the comment that if you don't pay off your debts, it's not anyone else's problem if at 30, you are still messing about at home (usual caveats about the majority apply).... - they graduated at 21/22 - at what point does having experiences turn into living it up on a graduate loan and being the 30 year old in a student disco (TIC, but you hopefully get the point....).

I'm in my mid thirties and have returned to my parents house to try to save more for a deposit. I am also reluctant to pay the new landlord class to exploit me. I graduated as a mature student so I admit to being a bit behind. But I know others of my age who have also moved back to their parents despite having decent salaried jobs.

[rvts]

I know so many people that just followed the pack and did a-levels then Uni. The thing is 90 percent of them were just average people scraping through the 5 a-c's then spending a further 7 years in education because either they dont know what they want to do in the future, or think Uni will guarantee them a great paid job in the end. I really think schools should not promote a-levels/uni as much as they do. Unless your planning on being a doctor/lawyer where you will have a great salary when qualified there is no point.

Was speaking to a friend who is in final year at uni and been studying social care or something and when they graduate theyre hoping to get a job on 17k -20k! Im earning that from just leaving school and working my way up. 90 percent of my colleagues who are doing the same job as me earning the same money have been to uni, struggled to get a job and have huge debts! In the meantime i have probably earned about 60k 70k and gained a lot of experience in my field (which is what really counts) And have had my own house for the last 2 years!

I work in IT and all the high paying jobs mention experience, a-levels and degrees are never mentioned! That and specialist training ie Cisco/Microsoft etc

Anyone over 25 who is moaning should have got their priorities right and bought a house, rather than travelling the world or whatever. You cant have your cake and eat it!

[Als]

I work in IT and all the high paying jobs mention experience, a-levels and degrees are never mentioned! That and specialist training ie Cisco/Microsoft etc

Not everybody is as fortunate as you. In the late 90s software development jobs were almost impossible to get without a degree qualification. If you didn't have a degree and were without experience then an employer would not even look at you. A degree was a necessity that opened the door to enable you to get your first commercial experience.

Anyone over 25 who is moaning should have got their priorities right and bought a house, rather than travelling the world or whatever. You cant have your cake and eat it!

Some of us had to go abroad because there was no work in the UK. Perhaps you haven't seen unemployment yet.

[rvts]

Well if that was the case back in the 90's then fine but it certainly isnt now. Unless like i said you were going to be a doctor /lawyer and would make up for it in first years salary then i would really advise people at 16 to either get an apprenticeship or office junior type position that way they gain experience as well as earning money. I remember being at school and been constantly told not to leave at 16 as there were no opportunities etc

I have been made redundant twice in the last 12 months so have experienced the unemplyment side of things also

[Zaranna]

Anyone over 25 who is moaning should have got their priorities right and bought a house, rather than travelling the world or whatever. You cant have your cake and eat it!

I worked and then did postgraduate study in my twenties. How was I supposed to buy a house on a funding stipend? Or should no-one ever take any higher degrees and become research scientists, academics, consultants, becuase they should know what's what, get their priorities right and buy a house before they're 25?

Most of industry runs off the research of those doing PhDs, for example. I guess those people just don't have their priorities right, as they didn't appreciate that doing essential but relatively low paid study or research into antibiotic resistance or bioscience means they aren't worthy of being able to buy somewhere to live.

This is not a poor-me post, just a reminder that there are some people out there who are over 25, who do productive, necessary and important work, essential to society and the economy, that needed several years' further study, and are priced out BECAUSE PRICES ARE TOO HIGH - not because they are somehow slackers who want something for nothing, sat around at university and should have left school at 16 and got an office job.

Edited May 26, 2006 by Zaranna