Driver - Right Or Wrong?

[Bloo Loo]

The merge happens over a distance rather than at a point. The queue being sorted out into single line with a large-ish gap before the obstruction doesn't really change much as long as it doesn't go so far back as to foul another junction. The crucial part is the efficiency of the merge. Well, sort of. You'd probably get the most traffic through if the traffic already in the clear lane didn't let anyone in at all.

Well,you have to think about how the queue got there in the first place.

Someone didnt merge nicely at some point.

I think poor signage has a part to play too. A "use both lanes" sign would put Q vigilantes in the back seat.

[Bloo Loo]

Bingo. If you merge far back, there are typically gaps large enough that no-one needs to slow down. If you merge at the end, traffic comes to a stop as you try to barge in, or the cars braking to let you in cause a wave of braking and accelerating that goes back half a mile. If late merging made no difference, traffic wouldn't suddenly accelerate from 4mph to 40mph the instant it enters the single lane section, it would be driving at 40mph all the way through.

If you merge too far back you are making a single line Q. QED

[Riedquat]

Well,you have to think about how the queue got there in the first place.

Someone didnt merge nicely at some point.

I think poor signage has a part to play too. A "use both lanes" sign would put Q vigilantes in the back seat.

The queue got there in the first place because the capacity of the road is reduced due to losing a lane, not because of the lack of nice merging. A single lane can only carry so much traffic no matter how well everyone drives. Add more traffic, even if well-driven, and it'll back up, analagous (but not exactly) to emptying a bucket of water into a funnel.

Using both lanes for longer would do nothing at all about the reduced capacity at the point where you lose the lane. Trying to constrain the merge to a single point (wherever that happens to be) reduces throughput further, since that now becomes the chokepoint rather than the loss of a lane.

Breaking as you describe is just poor driving. and the world is full of poor driving.

You've got to brake to open up a gap to let someone in, and that'll have an effect on the traffic behind you. Doing it sharply is bad driving and makes the problem worse but even with good driving the effect is still there. Spreading out the merge and making use of the gaps that'll form anyway due to different vehicle performance and so on (compare lorries and cars all in the same queue) reduces the effect, making the merge overall more efficient and smoother.

Even if you had identical robots driving identical cars I'm not sure a zip merge at the last minute would be the best.

[Bloo Loo]

The queue got there in the first place because the capacity of the road is reduced due to losing a lane, not because of the lack of nice merging. A single lane can only carry so much traffic no matter how well everyone drives. Add more traffic, even if well-driven, and it'll back up, analagous (but not exactly) to emptying a bucket of water into a funnel.

Using both lanes for longer would do nothing at all about the reduced capacity at the point where you lose the lane. Trying to constrain the merge to a single point (wherever that happens to be) reduces throughput further, since that now becomes the chokepoint rather than the loss of a lane.

You've got to brake to open up a gap to let someone in, and that'll have an effect on the traffic behind you. Doing it sharply is bad driving and makes the problem worse but even with good driving the effect is still there. Spreading out the merge and making use of the gaps that'll form anyway due to different vehicle performance and so on (compare lorries and cars all in the same queue) reduces the effect, making the merge overall more efficient and smoother.

You are talking about the movement of crowds...Of course there is a capacity limit...I read somewhere you actually get more cars through a motorway at 50Mph than you do at 70mph...due to, as you say the distances between vehicles being required to be larger for safety.

you get Qs on all roads if they reach capacity.

So arguing about the finer points of how to approach is purely academic, but in a slight overcapacity problem of merging traffic, zippering is best, and at some point of density, even that wont work.

Interestingly, those unaccountable stops and starts on motorways move backwards away from the cause at about 17mph IIRC, so if you are on a busy motorway, the stop start you are in could have been caused many miles ahead.

[Riedquat]

So arguing about the finer points of how to approach is purely academic, but in a slight overcapacity problem of merging traffic, zippering is best, and at some point of density, even that wont work.

The point I'm making is that zipping is not best, and that trying to enforce that at heavier overcapacity situations just makes the problem even worse. "Zipping is best" seems to get stated as fact with no argument to back it up.

The only circumstance under which it's the best choice is when there's a limited length of road to queue in and the road is only slightly over-capacity, so the queue that results is shorter than it would be even though it's getting less traffic through.

[Bloo Loo]

The point I'm making is that zipping is not best, and that trying to enforce that at heavier overcapacity situations just makes the problem even worse. "Zipping is best" seems to get stated as fact with no argument to back it up.

The only circumstance under which it's the best choice is when there's a limited length of road to queue in and the road is only slightly over-capacity, so the queue that results is shorter than it would be even though it's getting less traffic through.

Well, you are trying to import into a series of circumstances a "this is best" routine.

The method to use is what is forced upon you.

for example, the road works are erected at midnight. little traffic, but the left (driving) lane is blocked, and the right lane (overtaking) is free.

at this time, there is no possibility of a queue as there is little traffic. naturally, any traffic that is on the road will naturally zipper into the overtaking free lane to enter to narrowing.

You are not suggesting people get into a queue at this stage.

Now, as traffic increases, then assuming all a top drivers, all paying attention, then all will become aware of the obstruction, well in advance, they will note their position on the Road ( left or right), the position of others on the approach too, and will adjust their speed and position to maximise their speed and position to enter the obstruction.

However, Miss Daisy is driving her 4x4 and talking on the phone and wants to text a photo of her cat to her friend...she is not aware, she comes up to the obstruction as if it had jumped out at her....what does she do?...who knows, and importantly, did the other drivers anticipate her poor attention, and her subsequent action?

In this case, we have the possibility all will be well, Miss Daisy made her last minute correction, Mr RQuat gave her some room, the traffic flows.

or we could have got ourselves into an emergency braking situation, the traffic stops, Qs squash up, braking distances vanish and we have the Q.

so, there is no hard and fast rule, but for light flow zippering in best, Qing becomes inevitable at some volume or circumstance.

[ccc]

Er no

One is driving correctly according to road markings, conditions and hazards

the other is being a bell -

Please don't ask me which one is which

https://www.gov.uk/motorways-253-to-273/overtaking-267-to-269

The inside lane driver was attempting to use the hard shoulder, when there was not a specific sign stating it was a 'running lane'. There was also not an emergency requiring them to use this lane. They were just annoyed at a person being a bit of a twit in front of them. THIS DOES NOT constitute an emergency. Quite clearly.

So the inside lane person was NOT driving in accordance to road markings, conditions and hazards. End of story.

As per most people on chat forums - I imagine you will come back and - despite the black and white evidence below- still attempt to say that inside person wasn't doing anything wrong.

Thanks

"Do not overtake unless you are sure it is safe and legal to do so. Overtake only on the right."

"Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake."

"You MUST NOT use the hard shoulder for overtaking. In areas where an Active Traffic Management (ATM) Scheme is in force, the hard shoulder may be used as a running lane. You will know when you can use this because a speed limit sign will be shown above all open lanes, including the hard shoulder. "

[knock out johnny]

what has that to do with the vigilante?

What a spectacular misunderstanding of the question

[justthisbloke]

One would expect drivers to behave like this to each other - it is a duel carriageway after all.

[knock out johnny]

https://www.gov.uk/motorways-253-to-273/overtaking-267-to-269

The inside lane driver was attempting to use the hard shoulder, when there was not a specific sign stating it was a 'running lane'. There was also not an emergency requiring them to use this lane. They were just annoyed at a person being a bit of a twit in front of them. THIS DOES NOT constitute an emergency. Quite clearly.

So the inside lane person was NOT driving in accordance to road markings, conditions and hazards. End of story.

As per most people on chat forums - I imagine you will come back and - despite the black and white evidence below- still attempt to say that inside person wasn't doing anything wrong.

Thanks

"Do not overtake unless you are sure it is safe and legal to do so. Overtake only on the right."

"Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake."

"You MUST NOT use the hard shoulder for overtaking. In areas where an Active Traffic Management (ATM) Scheme is in force, the hard shoulder may be used as a running lane. You will know when you can use this because a speed limit sign will be shown above all open lanes, including the hard shoulder. "

Fair dues

However the original premise of this thread is whether the non-renault driver was at fault for using the clear lane while everyone was queueing or whether mr renault was right to prevent him getting an advantage (or at least that's what I understand the split in opinion is about not the subsequent @ssing about and swerving into the hard shoulder)

- the renault man was in the wrong - as soon as the first guy tried to get past renault man by attempting to use the hard shoulder, yes he too entered d!ckhead mode, but using the clear lane up until that point is the correct interpretation of the Highway code and is driving correctly according to road markings, conditions and hazards - do you not agree?

[Riedquat]

- the renault man was in the wrong - as soon as the first guy tried to get past renault man by attempting to use the hard shoulder, yes he too entered d!ckhead mode, but using the clear lane up until that point is the correct interpretation of the Highway code and is driving correctly according to road markings, conditions and hazards - do you not agree?

It's selfish, arguably anti-social behaviour that negatively affects the rest of the traffic but it's not actually against any rules or guidelines, so wrong, but not as wrong, up to that point.

I'd compare it with being in a group that regularly goes out for meals together and agrees to split the bill evenly, and one member takes advantage of this to usually go for a more expensive than average meal. People have organised themselves to their satisfaction, which leaves a gap someone exploits to their own end.

[SNACR]

Zip merging is simply not the prevalent way motorists behave in this country and anyone who travels narrow rural lanes will know that there are many drivers simply unable to time passing at wide points without grinding to a halt when it would have been straightforward to do so.

People, in this country, love queuing (which I thought was a fairly well known national stereotype and in no small way a source of national pride). The people, who most likely think their drving skills are of a higher standard, and want to make progress should just accept it and get in line, in the queue with everyone else. An impromptu powerpoint presentation on various highway code entries and the efficiency merits of zip merging won't stop you being perceived as a queue jumper by the majority of other motorists. Obviously the Renault is a dick but it's no surprise the behaviour provokes the queue jumping police.

[libspero]

I would still like to see someone show that (apart from pulling out too abruptly), the Renault driver is doing anything other than they advocate of the Merc driver.

I put it to you his action of taking the lefthand lane should be lauded because:

1 ) He pulls into the inside lane thus using both lanes as prefered

2 ) He then proceeds at the proveiling speed as per the traffic conditions

3 ) He then merges in turn at the front of the queue as people are advocating

With the added benefit that:

He's being considerate to the other people queuing

Everyone gets through as fast as they would have done otherwise

Nobody feels cheated and Karma is restored to the galaxy

[knock out johnny]

It's selfish, arguably anti-social behaviour that negatively affects the rest of the traffic but it's not actually against any rules or guidelines, so wrong, but not as wrong, up to that point.

I'd compare it with being in a group that regularly goes out for meals together and agrees to split the bill evenly, and one member takes advantage of this to usually go for a more expensive than average meal. People have organised themselves to their satisfaction, which leaves a gap someone exploits to their own end.

It is not antisocial to obey the rules and leave those who do not understand what they are doing to their own devices. You will notice that several other cars before the incidence used the clear lane - renault man, not understanding the rules of the road, went into victor meldrew mode, got frustrated at these 'cheats' and decided he was going to put an end to law abiding behaviour, now that is antisocial behaviour

As far as your analogy of the restaurant bill, if I'm going to get ripped of paying my share of a bill because the vast majority can't count, I would be a fool to join them and have no intention to. People have not organised themselves, they are individuals driving their cars, some know what they are doing, most of them don't

[knock out johnny]

I would still like to see someone show that (apart from pulling out too abruptly), the Renault driver is doing anything other than they advocate of the Merc driver.

I put it to you his action of taking the lefthand lane should be lauded because:

1 ) He pulls into the inside lane thus using both lanes as prefered

2 ) He then proceeds at the proveiling speed as per the traffic conditions

3 ) He then merges in turn at the front of the queue as people are advocating

With the added benefit that:

He's being considerate to the other people queuing

Everyone gets through as fast as they would have done otherwise

Nobody feels cheated and Karma is restored to the galaxy

Yeah, apart from the fact that he comes to a complete standstill due to sheer bloodymindness

[libspero]

Yeah, apart from the fact that he comes to a complete standstill due to sheer bloodymindness

Sure.. but only when the rest of the traffic is at near complete standstill as well.

[Bloo Loo]

I would still like to see someone show that (apart from pulling out too abruptly), the Renault driver is doing anything other than they advocate of the Merc driver.

I put it to you his action of taking the lefthand lane should be lauded because:

1 ) He pulls into the inside lane thus using both lanes as prefered

2 ) He then proceeds at the proveiling speed as per the traffic conditions

3 ) He then merges in turn at the front of the queue as people are advocating

With the added benefit that:

He's being considerate to the other people queuing

Everyone gets through as fast as they would have done otherwise

Nobody feels cheated and Karma is restored to the galaxy

LOL...you are Tony Blair and I claim my 5 points on my licence

[MrPin]

Concur. The Renault driver is a typical British aggressive conformist.

The real crime here is that everybody is driving a bloody silver car

It's a colour I don't like, but it has been very popular.

[knock out johnny]

Sure.. but only when the rest of the traffic is at near complete standstill as well.

Apart from the sole individual correctly going about his business

I can see this going down the political road (excuse the pun)

[rxe]

You'd probably get the most traffic through if the traffic already in the clear lane didn't let anyone in at all.

Not true, I'll repeat the post I made earlier:

Imagine you are in a straight line queue, rammed up behind the car in front in order to stop anyone butting in. All you can see are the guy in front's tail lights. The first warning you get that the queue is off is that the guy in front has taken his foot off the brake and started moving. Some time after that, 1 or two seconds, you have got your car rolling, and then the process is repeated. Another car could fit into that 1 - 2 second gap, with zero inconvenience to you.

Now imagine you are in a loosely packed queue of two lanes where sensible merge in turn is happening. The first guy goes, but the good news is that the second two guys have gone as well, because they saw the light change and started to roll then. Because they had left a sensible distance (no need to cram up), they can consume that distance as they allow for variations in speed. The cars enter the construction moving at the same speed as the single lane example, but much more densely packed.

There is an argument that most people are idiots and can't do it, but I see it done well pretty much every day on the exit from the M4 at Bracknell (horrible place, I drive through it, not to it). The road goes from 2 to 1 lane, clearly signed, and it works. When they mess with it for bridge works (no difference in overall capacity, just sign changes), the pipe smoking brigade wants to form an orderly queue, it all goes bad.

[SarahBell]

Tell them Gin sent you .

Is there a free one for me?

[GinAndPlatonic]

Is there a free one for me?

take two...one pink one blue

[SarahBell]

take two...one pink one blue

I only have room for one!

[libspero]

Apart from the sole individual correctly going about his business

He would still get there at the same speed if everyone had been doing what you advocate.

If everyone did as you suggest and used both lanes all the way down, it would take him just as long as waiting behind the Renault.

[OurDayWillCome]

My issue with people using the lane is the aggressive speed they use when undertaking stationery vehicles.