doomed Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 That's not true. If you had to pay for your own doctor, then well if its a choice of 100% chance of death or a doctor with rusty tools and lousy training that reduces it to 50%, you'll take the 50% chance if that's all you can afford. Or are you saying we should only allow doctors that have a >98% chance of saving lives, which in your world of everyone paying their own insurance, ensures a 100% chance of death for large numbers who cannot afford so well equipped and trained doctors? What's it going to be? Which do you suggest we choose? You can't save everyone from their bad decisions. You need people to want to try and improve their lot, not have an option to opt out and still have a comfortable life on the back of others hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderpup Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 It's not about freedom, it's about power. This says it all really. To confuse the 'free' in 'free market' as being about liberty is a semantic error. A free market merely establishes the rules of trade- it has nothing to say as to the consequences of trade. This is why the slave trade could flourish happily despite the gross violations of liberty involved for the merchandise being traded- it ticked every box of the free market credo and functioned perfectly until it was shut down by the 'evil' state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomed Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 This says it all really. To confuse the 'free' in 'free market' as being about liberty is a semantic error. A free market merely establishes the rules of trade- it has nothing to say as to the consequences of trade. This is why the slave trade could flourish happily despite the gross violations of liberty involved for the merchandise being traded- it ticked every box of the free market credo and functioned perfectly until it was shut down by the 'evil' state. Would that be the same state that sent gay people to prison? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 What violence needs to be used? I do not think anyone can stop someone calling themselves Dr. but common sense (I know you lack this) dictates that if I was to setup a practice and call myself Dr. without the required certifications I would be out of business before I got started because NO ONE WOULD USE AN UNQUALIFIED DOCTOR. Do you understand that now? I do, but this isn't what you said. You were definitely giving permission in your earlier statements, and that can only be done using force to prevent and then allowing access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 They can be supervised by industry associations that can revoke their certificates if there's complaints or malpractice. There is no need for the government to be involved. And i'm not holding up the US as ideal, the government is involved in health care there through medicare, medicaid and Obamacare and because of this costs are going through the roof. Everything the government is involved in the costs of those services go through the roof whereas things they're not involved in like making cellphones or insurance tend not to and fall in price. The costs of health care will fall when the government is out of that particular business. I do not support the patent system either or the corrupt drug licensing system so big pharma wouldn't thank me for that as they would be exposed to competition. So you are in favour of private monopolies then but against government ones? And why exactly would health care costs fall when its run as a private monopoly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punter Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 So you are in favour of private monopolies then but against government ones? And why exactly would health care costs fall when its run as a private monopoly? You can have more than one industry association so it wouldn't be a monopoly. Doctors competing against each other would drive down costs. It's what dentists do every day in the UK. The system works and people pay directly for their dental service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punter Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 That's not true. If you had to pay for your own doctor, then well if its a choice of 100% chance of death or a doctor with rusty tools and lousy training that reduces it to 50%, you'll take the 50% chance if that's all you can afford. Or are you saying we should only allow doctors that have a >98% chance of saving lives, which in your world of everyone paying their own insurance, ensures a 100% chance of death for large numbers who cannot afford so well equipped and trained doctors? What's it going to be? Which do you suggest we choose? What on earth you blabbering on about? If you had to pay for your own doctor you would find out who served your local area then perhaps you'd at website based reviews or talk to friends and family and make a decision based on quality of care and the price. I am sure doctors would charge different rates in different parts of the country but that doesn't mean their professional standards are lacking. I would think a private industry association would ensure that their doctors are fully qualified and regularly reviewed and up to speed to a decent standard and make this information available to the public so we can make an informed choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) You can have more than one industry association so it wouldn't be a monopoly. Doctors competing against each other would drive down costs. It's what dentists do every day in the UK. The system works and people pay directly for their dental service. Right...... What other sectors operate with industry associations supervising that sector and deciding who gets to operate within it? I can name you two, law, and accountancy. Now tell me this what is the typical cost of hiring in those sectors as opposed to hiring other skilled professionals, in for example, engineering or the sciences? As for private dentists driving down costs in the UK.... hilarious...... you don't live in the same nation i do it seems.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8785615/Overseas-dentists-fill-a-gap.html "So it’s not surprising that the Office of Fair Trading, the official government watchdog, has heard alarm bells ringing. It has just announced a wide-ranging inquiry into why British dental charges, both NHS and private, are among the highest in Europe. And good luck to it, particularly if it results in a shake-up of private dental costs. With the number of NHS dentists falling after a failed reform of the system in 2006, private dentists have patients over a barrel." Edited January 7, 2013 by alexw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punter Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Right...... What other sectors operate with industry associations supervising that sector and deciding who gets to operate within it? I can name you two, law, and accountancy. Now tell me this what is the typical cost of hiring in those sectors as opposed to hiring other skilled professionals, in for example, engineering or the sciences? Considering the amount of complicated laws and finance regulations accountants and solicitors earn their money and are competitive. I can make an appointment and see one straight away for advice and pay there and then for it. I would say the only exception being the monopolistic and absurd QC/barrister system which is enforced by the State i.e you cannot go in front of the High Court without the State allowing to have those letters after your name and being in the "club". Of course the barristers then just charge what they like as there is little competition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punter Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Right...... What other sectors operate with industry associations supervising that sector and deciding who gets to operate within it? I can name you two, law, and accountancy. Now tell me this what is the typical cost of hiring in those sectors as opposed to hiring other skilled professionals, in for example, engineering or the sciences? As for private dentists driving down costs in the UK.... hilarious...... you don't live in the same nation i do it seems.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/8785615/Overseas-dentists-fill-a-gap.html "So it’s not surprising that the Office of Fair Trading, the official government watchdog, has heard alarm bells ringing. It has just announced a wide-ranging inquiry into why British dental charges, both NHS and private, are among the highest in Europe. And good luck to it, particularly if it results in a shake-up of private dental costs. With the number of NHS dentists falling after a failed reform of the system in 2006, private dentists have patients over a barrel." I never said they're driving down costs in dentistry. There are other factors in play there. For example it's becoming more expensive for the dentist to hire and fire employee's. The state over the years have forced their costs up and those are being passed on to patients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 Considering the amount of complicated laws and finance regulations accountants and solicitors earn their money and are competitive. I can make an appointment and see one straight away for advice and pay there and then for it. I would say the only exception being the monopolistic and absurd QC/barrister system which is enforced by the State i.e you cannot go in front of the High Court without the State allowing to have those letters after your name and being in the "club". Of course the barristers then just charge what they like as there is little competition. Explain then why scientists and engineers earn so much less, do you honestly believe that its easier to be a research scientist or engineer involved in designing plant than an accountant or solicitor??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) I never said they're driving down costs in dentistry. There are other factors in play there. For example it's becoming more expensive for the dentist to hire and fire employee's. The state over the years have forced their costs up and those are being passed on to patients. Absolute nonsense, the ease with which employees can be hired and fired is much much easier now than 10 years ago. Your flat out wrong on that. And yes you did say dentists are driving down costs in the UK. Quoting you - "Doctors competing against each other would drive down costs. It's what dentists do every day in the UK." Edited January 7, 2013 by alexw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punter Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Explain then why scientists and engineers earn so much less, do you honestly believe that its easier to be a research scientist or engineer involved in designing plant than an accountant or solicitor??? At a graduate and in-house they don't earn less. When an accountant or solicitor goes on there own they earn more. Of course the scientist or engineer could make a breakthrough discovery, patent it and become very wealthy and then retire long before the accountant or solicitor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punter Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 Absolute nonsense, the ease with which employees can be hired and fired is much much easier now than 10 years ago. Your flat out wrong on that. No I'm not. There are more new laws, EU directives, tribunals and taxes than 10 years ago so the staffing costs for the dentist has gone up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 At a graduate and in-house they don't earn less. When an accountant or solicitor goes on there own they earn more. Of course the scientist or engineer could make a breakthrough discovery, patent it and become very wealthy and then retire long before the accountant or solicitor. No that's not the way it works. The idea of some individual scientist on his own making some breakthrough discovery out of his own funding does not exist. The capital costs are too high. And as stated accountants and lawyers earn on average significantly more than scientists or engineers. Because of their self-created monopolies, which you seem to want to see created in the medical profession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) No I'm not. There are more new laws, EU directives, tribunals and taxes than 10 years ago so the staffing costs for the dentist has gone up. So now it's taxes, directives, etc not ease of hiring and firing? All right then how have the wages of other non-dentistry professionals changed over the same time, for example for engineers or scientists? The same general laws, taxes, and directives, would apply to them also would they not? So why have we not seen skyrocketing wages for e.g. engineers? Explain this. Edited January 7, 2013 by alexw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erranta Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) Considering the amount of complicated laws and finance regulations accountants and solicitors earn their money and are competitive. I can make an appointment and see one straight away for advice and pay there and then for it. I would say the only exception being the monopolistic and absurd QC/barrister system which is enforced by the State i.e you cannot go in front of the High Court without the State allowing to have those letters after your name and being in the "club". Of course the barristers then just charge what they like as there is little competition. They already started outsourcing law jobs to India etc - cos they are too expensive. Massive call centres you can ring at set charges as far as I heard. You are out of touch and live in your own fairy ('tail') bubble Edited January 7, 2013 by erranta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erranta Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 No that's not the way it works. The idea of some individual scientist on his own making some breakthrough discovery out of his own funding does not exist. The capital costs are too high. And as stated accountants and lawyers earn on average significantly more than scientists or engineers. Because of their self-created monopolies, which you seem to want to see created in the medical profession. Their "PEER REVIEW" one way casino system regulates what we read or hear about. If any rock-the-boat they are publically riduculed, ruined and made destitute. Like TESLA - they had to shut him up fast and give us a completely false story about how electricity actually functions to retain full control over our energy and fleece us dearly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHF Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 That's nice, but we have chartalism and are likely to continue to have chartalism for decades longer (even if this one fails they'll just build another one.) I initially read that as charlatan ism, which I think could also be appropriate for the snake oil peddlers at the top Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 What violence needs to be used? I do not think anyone can stop someone calling themselves Dr. but common sense (I know you lack this) dictates that if I was to setup a practice and call myself Dr. without the required certifications I would be out of business before I got started because NO ONE WOULD USE AN UNQUALIFIED DOCTOR. Do you understand that now? clearly, you have little concept of the word "fraud". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 They can be supervised by industry associations that can revoke their certificates if there's complaints or malpractice. There is no need for the government to be involved. And i'm not holding up the US as ideal, the government is involved in health care there through medicare, medicaid and Obamacare and because of this costs are going through the roof. Everything the government is involved in the costs of those services go through the roof whereas things they're not involved in like making cellphones or insurance tend not to and fall in price. The costs of health care will fall when the government is out of that particular business. I do not support the patent system either or the corrupt drug licensing system so big pharma wouldn't thank me for that as they would be exposed to competition. not only that, they used Health Industry " professionals" and insurance companies to draught up the Obamacare deal and get it through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punter Posted January 7, 2013 Author Share Posted January 7, 2013 No that's not the way it works. The idea of some individual scientist on his own making some breakthrough discovery out of his own funding does not exist. The capital costs are too high. And as stated accountants and lawyers earn on average significantly more than scientists or engineers. Because of their self-created monopolies, which you seem to want to see created in the medical profession. you may think scientists and engineers are just as 'worthy' as an accountant or lawyer but the truth is the market dictates their pay. Solicitors and accountants help their clients navigate very choppy waters with regards to the mass of regulations, taxes and directives coming from our idiotic politicians. In my ideal world the tax code would be far simpler (i.e hardly any taxes) and stupid regulations swept away so perhaps in a more free market the work will be less complicated and less costly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted January 7, 2013 Share Posted January 7, 2013 you may think scientists and engineers are just as 'worthy' as an accountant or lawyer but the truth is the market dictates their pay. Solicitors and accountants help their clients navigate very choppy waters with regards to the mass of regulations, taxes and directives coming from our idiotic politicians. In my ideal world the tax code would be far simpler (i.e hardly any taxes) and stupid regulations swept away so perhaps in a more free market the work will be less complicated and less costly. Accountants and lawyers only exist because of the state. Not part of the free market. There are no taxes in a free market. None. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.