Poor America

[mdman]

Yes, any point of view can be supported by anecdotes. I know a person, in Britain, who has worked hard his entire life but cannot afford to buy a house for his family. He is lucky because the NHS can prescribe him anti-depressants and counselling for his affliction. He really doesn't know what the point of working is. If he worked here in the States, he could buy a house overlooking mountains and water. In my mind Britain makes people poor but house prices make them feel rich. I couldn't afford a brand new car every 3 years and the luxury I live in back in England. I work hard and I get to keep most of my money without having to employ a creative accountant. You can keep the NHS. I like to be seen by a doctor when I demand to be seen by a doctor. I demand that the doctor speaks English. I demand that the waiting room is efficient and not full of old moaners coughing over me. The American system is very imperfect but the British system is completely unsustainable. The NHS is not cost effective! It doesn't recoup the cost or prevent misuse by foreigners. My GP in England was never available at the weekend; it seems to come as a surprise to the NHS that some people actually have to work during the week.

Is your US doctor state-funded or private? Because in the uk, you could find a private doctor to see you over the weekend. On the NHS, no.

In fact I think the cost of state-funded care is cheaper for the UK compared to the US (Medicare, Medicaid, veterans) on a per capita basis despite the latter treating a much smaller fraction of the population. You're paying more through taxes for state-funded medical care in the US that you don't (presumably) use than you did through taxes for the nhs that you did use. Definitely cost effective.

I agree about housing. One of my brothers in America just bought a house that's twice the size and half the cost of a house another brother bought in London. As far as wealth goes, the house price value is irrelevant. It's the standard of living benefits you derive from it that matter.

[Xurbia]

Yeah, yeah - it's all anecdotal isn't it?

Fact. Medical expenses are the biggest cause of personal bankruptcy in the usa - and that is BEFORE the current economic clusterfluck (see link 1)

My link

a bit more anecdotal

My link

I know, the plural of anecdotes is not data, but do your own research - and pray to God you don't get ill

The argument is akin to the old joke about what do you call a Republican who's been raped in prison - a democrat!

I'm in denial. You're right, I need to go back to Britain and be unemployed and miserable.....just so I can prevent bankruptcy in later life. Alternatively I can continue to enjoy private medical care, drive a nice car, with cheap petrol and own a huge house overlooking the water. I could also come back and claim my free dental work.....hang on it's not free. In Britain I would make myself ill trying to buy something half-habitable and then I'd put myself in hospital with the stress of trying to remain in work. The British love to think that America is screwed because it doesn't have the NHS. I think Britain is screwed because it does have the NHS. At some point you'll have to pay 50% tax to support it. That's when you'll get private medical insurance. The NHS is a bottomless pit that is completely unsustainable.

[Xurbia]

Of all the possible uses and justifications for taxation, you'd have thought that universal healthcare would be the least contentious. I find it hard to believe that anyone can object to it - any country without some system similar to the NHS is one step (if that) up from barbarism.

Or any country that inflates its houses beyond the reaches of mere mortals. Or any country that deluges it's cities with cheap foreign labour. Or any country that makes working for a living very unrewarding. Or any country that allows it's MPs to steal from the taxpaxer.

[M'lud]

I'm in denial. You're right, I need to go back to Britain and be unemployed and miserable.....just so I can prevent bankruptcy in later life. Alternatively I can continue to enjoy private medical care, drive a nice car, with cheap petrol and own a huge house overlooking the water. I could also come back and claim my free dental work.....hang on it's not free. In Britain I would make myself ill trying to buy something half-habitable and then I'd put myself in hospital with the stress of trying to remain in work. The British love to think that America is screwed because it doesn't have the NHS. I think Britain is screwed because it does have the NHS. At some point you'll have to pay 50% tax to support it. That's when you'll get private medical insurance. The NHS is a bottomless pit that is completely unsustainable.

You dismissed the previous post as anecdotal - I give you well researched reports, and you counter with the long term policy of I'm alright Jack, I've got lots of toys, big car, blah, blah

Can't be bothered to pick this apart point by point

[mfp123]

the US has a terrible healthcare system, and thats the view from the US.

on most comparisons, it performs poorly and yet costs the most.

also dont forget - the US has got a public healthcare system. the difference is that it covers 28% of the population whilst the UK's covers 100%.

the US spends more per person ($3700) than the UK ($3200) on public health spending so im not sure how they dont see themselves as a social system.

however the difference it only covers less than 1/3 of the population.

so 72% of US tax payers are paying more per person than UK taxpayers - to pay for someone elses medical care.

[homeless]

No such thing as Middle Class (not how people generally perceive it in the UK at least), to be real middle class you will have inherited money behind you, none of this "new money" snobbery, just because you own a house on a Bellway estate, your kids have gone/go to uni does not make you middle class, or that you shop in M&S.

A survey last year showed that the majority of people in the UK saw themselves as Middle Class (despite having working class backgrounds).

If you need to work for a living, to keep your head above water, to pay the mortgage then you are working class

simples

indeed, it will be there kids going to uni that will be real middleclass, not the parents. the problem is the way working class is often potrait, its often mistaken for underclass and no-one wishes to be stigmatised with that if your a hard working tax payer.

[Xurbia]

You dismissed the previous post as anecdotal - I give you well researched reports, and you counter with the long term policy of I'm alright Jack, I've got lots of toys, big car, blah, blah

Can't be bothered to pick this apart point by point

Yes, you gave me lots of researched reports. What they don't explain is why I get paid more in the USA, why I get to keep more of my money and why everything is cheaper. The only thing that isn't cheaper is healthcare for which I have a company scheme. Yes, I pay towards Medicare for other people and the poor but I still keep 10% more of money. Why would I want to work hard and give it all away? Britain is depressing. There is no guarantee that hard work will benefit me more than being unemployed. If I was well paid in the UK I could buy an expensive house and might get wiped out by a property collapse. In the USA I have a well paid job and can buy an nice house at half the cost without the fear of rapid depreciation. Buying a house in Britain will make you a prisoner for sure. The irony is that renting in Britain is expensive but if you're poor the government pays your rent for you. The UK doesn't make sense. There's little reward for working hard. The only people doing well, when I left 5 years ago, were NHS employees and MPs. The private sector was hammered to death by Gordan *****a Brown.

I worked really hard in the UK; really hard. When I had a 6 month stretch of unemployment I requested dole money, as a token gesture to pay for my latte habit. I was told that nothing was available as I had excessive savings. That's great. I paid all my bills with savings, whilst the professionally unemployed still collected their entitlements. I had a minor medical problem, during this time, and expected the NHS to deal with it. No such luck. They diagnosed incorrectly and told me I needed a scan; unfortunately I'd have to wait 6 months. They suggested that I go private! I went private and was diagnosed incorrectly. I went on holiday to America and was diagnosed correctly for $250. I got a discount for cash. No queues, no misdiagnosis and all cutting-edge new equipment.

I look objectively both countries and it's obvious which one works for me. One country expects you to work and will give you unemployment insurance ($600 per week in my case, if I have the misfortune to be out of work) based on your tax contributions; one country will try to bleed you dry before giving you derisory amounts because they want everyone, regardless of talent, to be equally poor.

America is not poor. The standard of living has fallen but it's got a long way to go before it reaches British standards.

[winkie]

America is not poor. The standard of living has fallen but it's got a long way to go before it reaches British standards.

That statement is very subjective......all depends where you stand in society and what you understand the meaning of poor to be....different things to different people.

[M'lud]

Yes, you gave me lots of researched reports. What they don't explain is why I get paid more in the USA, why I get to keep more of my money and why everything is cheaper. The only thing that isn't cheaper is healthcare for which I have a company scheme. Yes, I pay towards Medicare for other people and the poor but I still keep 10% more of money. Why would I want to work hard and give it all away? Britain is depressing. There is no guarantee that hard work will benefit me more than being unemployed. If I was well paid in the UK I could buy an expensive house and might get wiped out by a property collapse. In the USA I have a well paid job and can buy an nice house at half the cost without the fear of rapid depreciation. Buying a house in Britain will make you a prisoner for sure. The irony is that renting in Britain is expensive but if you're poor the government pays your rent for you. The UK doesn't make sense. There's little reward for working hard. The only people doing well, when I left 5 years ago, were NHS employees and MPs. The private sector was hammered to death by Gordan *****a Brown.

I worked really hard in the UK; really hard. When I had a 6 month stretch of unemployment I requested dole money, as a token gesture to pay for my latte habit. I was told that nothing was available as I had excessive savings. That's great. I paid all my bills with savings, whilst the professionally unemployed still collected their entitlements. I had a minor medical problem, during this time, and expected the NHS to deal with it. No such luck. They diagnosed incorrectly and told me I needed a scan; unfortunately I'd have to wait 6 months. They suggested that I go private! I went private and was diagnosed incorrectly. I went on holiday to America and was diagnosed correctly for $250. I got a discount for cash. No queues, no misdiagnosis and all cutting-edge new equipment.

I look objectively both countries and it's obvious which one works for me. One country expects you to work and will give you unemployment insurance ($600 per week in my case, if I have the misfortune to be out of work) based on your tax contributions; one country will try to bleed you dry before giving you derisory amounts because they want everyone, regardless of talent, to be equally poor.

America is not poor. The standard of living has fallen but it's got a long way to go before it reaches British standards.

more of the same "I'm all right jack - at the moment"

If you're not able to earn enough in the UK it means you're not worth any more than that - but I'm sure you'll be okay with your "AMERICA FU@CK YEAH" Laissez-faire attitude

What the feck is this supposed to mean " I requested dole money, as a token gesture to pay for my latte habit." so you complain about the lazy and feckless suckling on the teat of your hard earned tax, yet you want dole when you have savings.

Made redundant? - good luck in the USA if it goes on too long

"buy an nice house at half the cost without the fear of rapid depreciation"

Timing really is everything, alternatively you should have bought in the UK in 97

And if you think there is no medical malpractice in the States I suggest you try and see a psychiatrist as you're clearly a fantasist

You sound like Al Murray who's had his publican's licence revoked

Get over it -

[Xurbia]

That statement is very subjective......all depends where you stand in society and what you understand the meaning of poor to be....different things to different people.

You're correct and I am shameless with my own anecdotal evidence. Being poor on this forum is mostly about home ownership and house prices are holding Britain hostage. There are so many lazy people sitting on piles of home equity but they can hardly afford to live. The NHS might be wonderful, for the masses, but will it be so great when interest rates rise? I truly think I'd become mentally ill if I had to come back there and then I'd be grateful for the NHS. I'm buying a holiday home here shortly. I could by an ex-council house in Hull or a holiday home in California....Hull it is I guess?

[Xurbia]

more of the same "I'm all right jack - at the moment"

If you're not able to earn enough in the UK it means you're not worth any more than that - but I'm sure you'll be okay with your "AMERICA FU@CK YEAH" Laissez-faire attitude

What the feck is this supposed to mean " I requested dole money, as a token gesture to pay for my latte habit." so you complain about the lazy and feckless suckling on the teat of your hard earned tax, yet you want dole when you have savings.

Made redundant? - good luck in the USA if it goes on too long

"buy an nice house at half the cost without the fear of rapid depreciation"

Timing really is everything, alternatively you should have bought in the UK in 97

And if you think there is no medical malpractice in the States I suggest you try and see a psychiatrist as you're clearly a fantasist

You sound like Al Murray who's had his publican's licence revoked

Get over it -

Why should lazy gypsies and soap-dodgers get dole and taxpayers get nothing? I wanted dole money because I'm entitled to it....except I'm not. Why should I get poorer and possibly lose my house in England, just because I lose my job? I'm expected to support everyone else when I work; why isn't that reciprocated? You might get a warm glow subsidising low-lives and lazy but I don't.

I'm no fantasist. I'm a realist. I bought a house in the UK in 1995. So what? It's pretty sad that the only way to get rich in England is to buy a home. That is the only way really. You get taxed on hard work but you don't get taxed when you sell your home. It's unsustainable. At some point people need to create something.. and that applies to both countries but more so to Britain.

[winkie]

You're correct and I am shameless with my own anecdotal evidence. Being poor on this forum is mostly about home ownership and house prices are holding Britain hostage. There are so many lazy people sitting on piles of home equity but they can hardly afford to live. The NHS might be wonderful, for the masses, but will it be so great when interest rates rise? I truly think I'd become mentally ill if I had to come back there and then I'd be grateful for the NHS. I'm buying a holiday home here shortly. I could by an ex-council house in Hull or a holiday home in California....Hull it is I guess?

Well as long as you are happy the USA obviously suits you, you have made the most of what it offers...but that doesn't mean to say you are richer than someone living in an ex-council house.....and what is equity worth to someone that is living in it? zilch.....should they sell it and spend it on health insurance and a holiday home in the states?

[Xurbia]

Made redundant? - good luck in the USA if it goes on too long

You have to be joking. My unemployment insurance is $600 per week here based on my salary. Trust me, I can get buy on that....just. What would I get in Britain? The answer is zero. They might pay my NI contributions if I was a good citizen.

[Tonkers]

The first six months of jsa isnt means tested so you should have received your latte money.

[mfp123]

i think most people would agree the high house prices in the UK is drastically reducing the quality of life for most people.

the UK doesnt rank highly in terms of quality of life, mainly due to the cost of living.

[Xurbia]

Well as long as you are happy the USA obviously suits you, you have made the most of what it offers...but that doesn't mean to say you are richer than someone living in an ex-council house.....and what is equity worth to someone that is living in it? zilch.....should they sell it and spend it on health insurance and a holiday home in the states?

I agree with you. The thing that makes us rich, is happiness. I just don't want people dismissing America as a poor nation. It still gives more to charity than any other country. I do find it strange that the British think Americans are vulgar but if you go to any party all British people do is talk about their house's value. They never discuss their home's value. It's strange and alien but sums up modern Britain. If you own a house in Britain you are one of the elite, or so people think. It can all change as America proves.

[M'lud]

Why should lazy gypsies and soap-dodgers get dole and taxpayers get nothing? I wanted dole money because I'm entitled to it....except I'm not. Why should I get poorer and possibly lose my house in England, just because I lose my job? I'm expected to support everyone else when I work; why isn't that reciprocated? You might get a warm glow subsidising low-lives and lazy but I don't.

I'm no fantasist. I'm a realist. I bought a house in the UK in 1995. So what? It's pretty sad that the only way to get rich in England is to buy a home. That is the only way really. You get taxed on hard work but you don't get taxed when you sell your home. It's unsustainable. At some point people need to create something.. and that applies to both countries but more so to Britain.

How long for?

What if you get ill when out of work?

What if your illness is long term?

Will you be one of those ex-pats who come back tail between their legs, yet still bang on about how great it was over there, just so you can ponce off the NHS and welfare like those "gypsies and soap dodgers".

Keep living the dream, because that is just what it is - wake up and smell the coffee

Why should lazy gypsies and soap-dodgers get dole and taxpayers get nothing?

[Xurbia]

The first six months of jsa isnt means tested so you should have received your latte money.

I've been robbed! This was a fair few years ago but I was asked if I had X amount in my bank account (something like 10K). I told the truth and they said I couldn't make any claim. The did say I might be able to have my NI contributions made, but that was it. From that moment on I was too busy looking for work. In a way I'm proud that I didn't claim because there are many that are far more needy than I. Unfortunately I see the abject theft by MPs and the like and it makes me feel angry that I didn't get anything. I was being flippant about my latte money but it's annoying that tax contributions only seem to work one way.

[Georgia O'Keeffe]

the UK doesnt rank highly in terms of quality of life, mainly due to the cost of living.

Dont think thats the case at all, if you look at the cost of living indexes the countries with the highest cost of living generally also appear as the countries with the better perceived quality of life, the UK isnt particularly high up on either scale, quality or cost

the biggest problem id have with the uk speaking purely on financial principle is youve constantly got some nomark tosspot, be they tory,Labour,or libdem with their sticky mits constantly in your wallet handing out benefits/welfare/whatever the politically correct term of the day is to scroungers at the top and bottom of society with no tangible return and very negative social developments that that entails (thats when they arent just pocketing it themselves to deal with wysteria, buying a vintage hepplewhite or whacking their family on to the pay register) British Mps could give their Italian counterparts a run for their money which is no mean feat

[winkie]

I agree with you. The thing that makes us rich, is happiness. I just don't want people dismissing America as a poor nation. It still gives more to charity than any other country. I do find it strange that the British think Americans are vulgar but if you go to any party all British people do is talk about their house's value. They never discuss their home's value. It's strange and alien but sums up modern Britain. If you own a house in Britain you are one of the elite, or so people think. It can all change as America proves.

I am the first person to agree that house prices are far to high in this country...I don't like to see the few with more than one, purchased as an investment with easy credit, mortgaging the home they live in and buying up the property that in years gone by a ftb'er could purchase. Now the multi property owners are benefiting from very low interest rates but still charging high rents to the priced out......in the 80s people purchased their first home in their 20s without outside help in most cases and I am talking London here not the back and beyond out in the sticks places....today most in their 20s have very little chance of doing the same.....cheap easy credit, unregulated BTL mortgages and homes for investment purposes have all but killed opportunities for FTB'ers......having said that, still early days.

[Xurbia]

How long for?

What if you get ill when out of work?

What if your illness is long term?

Will you be one of those ex-pats who come back tail between their legs, yet still bang on about how great it was over there, just so you can ponce off the NHS and welfare like those "gypsies and soap dodgers".

Keep living the dream, because that is just what it is - wake up and smell the coffee

I don't know how long unemployment is for but it's probably 99weeks. If I get ill when I'm out of work I can use COBRA or alternatively use my wife's plan. It's unlikely that we will both be out of work. If we are out of work and cannot get COBRA we will buy our own. I have planned for most things.

What type of illness do you think I'm going to get? Statistically I'm not going to worry about it. I can still do 30 chin-ups, so it's unlikely. I'll take my chances. I eat well, have good blood pressure and enjoy life. If I get a bad back I can handle it without claiming disability.

I'm not one of those expats that come back. I've been here 5 years. Why would I come back? I'm more likely to go to New Zealand.

The coffee in Seattle is good. Tastes very nice at $2 for a grande this morning! I'll skip the doughnut in case I get cancer of my arsehole.

[Xurbia]

......having said that, still early days.

Exactly. The British economy is a miracle at the moment.

My parents want me to return to Britain. We discussed property. They bought a house for 80K in 1985 and it's now 'worth' about 800K. Their house is nice but nothing exceptional. I asked them how I would possibly afford to live and enjoy life. They couldn't answer except for I'd just have to get by like I did before. I don't want to just get by! Older generations don't have a clue about how reckless it is for the young to take on massive debts. Property prices in Britain just make life sad.

[winkie]

Exactly. The British economy is a miracle at the moment.

My parents want me to return to Britain. We discussed property. They bought a house for 80K in 1985 and it's know 'worth' about 800K. Their house is nice but nothing exceptional. I asked them how I would possibly afford to live and enjoy life. They couldn't answer except for I'd just have to get by like I did before. I don't want to just get by! Older generations don't have a clue about how reckless it is for the young to take on massive debts. Property prices in Britain just make life sad.

...so what are you going to do about it?...fight or flight?

[Xurbia]

...so what are you going to do about it?...fight or flight?

I won't ever go back to Britain permanently unless they opt out of the EU and Labour are never allowed back into government! It's a wonderful and beautiful place but post-1997 it proved too difficult for me to stomach. I didn't just sit on my hands and moan about my predicament though. Most people on this forum may never have the opportunity to own a home unless they do emigrate. Waiting for a proper crash hasn't worked too well so far. There's talk about housing being cheaper than 2007 but that doesn't agree with what I see on Rightmove.

If you're young and have skills it doesn't hurt trying a different country for a couple of years.

I still think New Zealand is the best place on earth, even though it invented the NHS.

[kraft]

I can second everything xurbia has said. If you have a modicum of work ethic, intelligence or even simple impulse control you can get ahead in the US quite easily. An example might be my neighbour who never graduated high school, started working for a tree trimming biz, then started his own crew and makes 6 figures now.

Compared to the UK where it's not so much about how adept you are at doing something useful, but how adept you are at extracting money from the government. Over their my neighbour would have had to have got some government contract to employ young offenders to cut down trees and plant new ones or something equally pointless. The UK is still a competition based economy it's just the competition is who can extract the most money from taxpayers, rather than who can extract it from consumers.