Are 'the Big 4' Too Big? Just Like The Banks

[Redcellar]

Story is here.

Basically PWC and E&Y are under investigation. In fact PWC face fines according to the article.

Will individuals along with the company face more than just fines? If a building site worker was found negligent then Health and Safety wouldn't hesitate to have the individual arrested. And white collar crime is as serious and drastically affects lives too, probably impacts on more lives.

This isn't the first time the big 4 have faced criticism. It used to be the big 5! There was talk of investigations into if they have too great a hold on the market. Will this kick start the debate again. What good are audited accounts if the auditors aren't up to the job.

[erranta]

Looks like Legal Precedents are about to be set.

http://www.dailymail...rdoch-s-NI.html

The individual in any organisation is the weakness.

Depends on the 'organisation'!

Individual

early 15c., "one and indivisible" (with reference to the Trinity),

from M.L. individualis, from L. individuus "indivisible," from in- "not, opposite of" (see in- (1)) + dividuus "divisible," from dividere "divide" (see divide).

Sense of "single, separate" is 1610s; meaning "intended for one person" is from 1889.

[buzzardo]

Would be interesting if PWC wasn't deemed too big to fail.

The C*ckiest c*ck, among all the c*cks in our former little Surrey enclave, is a big shot partner there (well, in his own lunchbox anyway.)

It would be highly amusing to see him, his c*cky wife and their foul, spoilt, horse-riding, private-schooled, hubristic chubby little bullying brats brought down, even if it was just a couple of pegs.

I can't work out if I feel better for typing that, or if I've just dragged myself down to their level as well. Hey-ho, I guess time will tell

B

[Redcellar]

Would be interesting if PWC wasn't deemed too big to fail.

The C*ckiest c*ck, among all the c*cks in our former little Surrey enclave, is a big shot partner there (well, in his own lunchbox anyway.)

It would be highly amusing to see him, his c*cky wife and their foul, spoilt, horse-riding, private-schooled, hubristic chubby little bullying brats brought down, even if it was just a couple of pegs.

I can't work out if I feel better for typing that, or if I've just dragged myself down to their level as well. Hey-ho, I guess time will tell

B

Nothing wrong with venting steam.

[stormymonday_2011]

Would be interesting if PWC wasn't deemed too big to fail.

The C*ckiest c*ck, among all the c*cks in our former little Surrey enclave, is a big shot partner there (well, in his own lunchbox anyway.)

It would be highly amusing to see him, his c*cky wife and their foul, spoilt, horse-riding, private-schooled, hubristic chubby little bullying brats brought down, even if it was just a couple of pegs.

I can't work out if I feel better for typing that, or if I've just dragged myself down to their level as well. Hey-ho, I guess time will tell

B

You tell it like it is my son.

[stuckmojo]

I thought this was a thread about Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer and Anthrax. Doh.

[interestrateripoff]

The accounting firms have been just about as useful as the rating agencies.

[Badlad1967]

Would be interesting if PWC wasn't deemed too big to fail.

The C*ckiest c*ck, among all the c*cks in our former little Surrey enclave, is a big shot partner there (well, in his own lunchbox anyway.)

It would be highly amusing to see him, his c*cky wife and their foul, spoilt, horse-riding, private-schooled, hubristic chubby little bullying brats brought down, even if it was just a couple of pegs.

I can't work out if I feel better for typing that, or if I've just dragged myself down to their level as well. Hey-ho, I guess time will tell

B

Well I enjoyed it!

Good for you - get in off yer chest mate

[Blod]

Would be interesting if PWC wasn't deemed too big to fail.

The C*ckiest c*ck, among all the c*cks in our former little Surrey enclave, is a big shot partner there (well, in his own lunchbox anyway.)

It would be highly amusing to see him, his c*cky wife and their foul, spoilt, horse-riding, private-schooled, hubristic chubby little bullying brats brought down, even if it was just a couple of pegs.

I can't work out if I feel better for typing that, or if I've just dragged myself down to their level as well. Hey-ho, I guess time will tell

B

+1

We would all like to see some accountability not just there but right the way across the financial sector hey for that matter I can think of a few other sectors that could do with it.

[newbie]

There should be a cap on the maximum number of partners, like there used to be until fairly recently. It would be good for competition, good for new firms, good for graduates and good for the public. The only people it would be bad for are the current partners of the big 4!

[aa3]

I've seen the major accounting firms essentially rip people off, by signing off year after year ona huge development that everythign met all the highest standards. Then the year the development went bankrupt they released a scathing report saying how it didn't meet compliance.

But if you looked at the details obviously things were going on in the years before.

The investors in that project, which were many local residents lost everything. A lot of the contractors to the project, also were out huge money when it went under.

No consequences whatsoever for the big accounting firm for signing off for years in a row. Of course they 'cover their ass' with all this legaleese about how they aren't responsible basically under any circumstance. Which is fine, but their signing off means nothing to me now. Which honestly it didn't even before that project.

So as interestrateripoff said they are just like the ratings agencies now. And you would be an idiot to invest any money based on their signing off on something. We're returnign to an older form of capitalism which will be completely private in nature. The idea of trusts and so on with many investors is coming to an end.

[tinker]

I don't know whether this is true, but some time ago I was told that the UK had 4 times the number of accountants as Germany.

Are accountants are needed en masse because our tax laws are too complex? Increasing the costs of doing business.

As a nation we do seem to reward and value the wrong things.

[aa3]

I don't know whether this is true, but some time ago I was told that the UK had 4 times the number of accountants as Germany.

Are accountants are needed en masse because our tax laws are too complex? Increasing the costs of doing business.

As a nation we do seem to reward and value the wrong things.

I can believe that.. I've heard that our tax code is about 10 times the size of France's. And France is known as a country which loves its bureaucracy.

One I do know is that we have 20 times the number of lawyers as Japan per capita. And somehow in Japan business still is conducted, the trains still run on time.

Most people don't realize that most of our business that has left has gone to countries like Japan, South Korea and Germany, which actually have higher labour costs than us. We like to think business is only going because of cheap labour.. but in reality for most production today labour is a pretty small component.

[stormymonday_2011]

I don't know whether this is true, but some time ago I was told that the UK had 4 times the number of accountants as Germany.

Are accountants are needed en masse because our tax laws are too complex? Increasing the costs of doing business.

As a nation we do seem to reward and value the wrong things.

It is because the UK prefers counting beans to growing them.

[Guest tbatst2000]

I don't know whether this is true, but some time ago I was told that the UK had 4 times the number of accountants as Germany.

Are accountants are needed en masse because our tax laws are too complex? Increasing the costs of doing business.

As a nation we do seem to reward and value the wrong things.

I can't answer that exactly, but I do know from other similar stats that you have to be very cautious about the definition of the thing you're counting. E.g. an accountant in the UK could easily include anyone with an accounting qualification whereas you can be sure any German number will only include the equivalent of chartered ones. I'd guess that the UK probably does have more accountants of all types per head of population than Germany though since financial services is a bigger business relatively speaking. I have to say though, I've met very few accountants who weren't total block-heads and most of the smart ones I have met, were actually ex-accountants now doing something else.

Edited August 17, 2011 by tbatst2000

[Killer_penguin]

I don't know whether this is true, but some time ago I was told that the UK had 4 times the number of accountants as Germany.

Are accountants are needed en masse because our tax laws are too complex? Increasing the costs of doing business.

As a nation we do seem to reward and value the wrong things.

UK has bigger financial services sector in which a lot of accountants are employed. So it is natural that number will be higher in Germany also in UK accountancy is quite popular sector but although many people finishing accounting, they may not actually be working as accountants.

In general I do agree that big 4 are non value adding entities in economy much like rating agencies. Many of employees in BIG 4 are nothing more as box tickers without any idea on what they are actually doing but with huge EGO.

[aa3]

A society needs accountants. And its very important they have the highest level of integrity. So when I see that PWC stamp certifying that everything herein is accurate to within materiality.. and anything that would be of interest to investors is included in the notes.. that I believe them.

And to the extent that that integrity is maintained people are willing to pay a lot of information for that stamp.

[Guest tbatst2000]

A society needs accountants. And its very important they have the highest level of integrity. So when I see that PWC stamp certifying that everything herein is accurate to within materiality.. and anything that would be of interest to investors is included in the notes.. that I believe them.

And to the extent that that integrity is maintained people are willing to pay a lot of information for that stamp.

Having been the receiving end of audits from all of the big 4, I'd have to say that I disagree. That doesn't mean I think they're dishonest in the general case (there may be the odd crook in there, as per Andersen's, but the majority are decent people with high levels of integrity), but that they're engaged in a game of mutual plausible deniability. Gross fraud they will spot, sharp practices that are legal but which may eventually result in something more serious, they are unlikely to see. Given a basically honest firm or an obviously crooked firm, they will do fine, other things they will quite likely miss.

[Redcellar]

Having been the receiving end of audits from all of the big 4, I'd have to say that I disagree. That doesn't mean I think they're dishonest in the general case (there may be the odd crook in there, as per Andersen's, but the majority are decent people with high levels of integrity), but that they're engaged in a game of mutual plausible deniability. Gross fraud they will spot, sharp practices that are legal but which may eventually result in something more serious, they are unlikely to see. Given a basically honest firm or an obviously crooked firm, they will do fine, other things they will quite likely miss.

Absolutely.

They didn't spot / announce the inherent risk of the 'house prices only increase' loans to sub prime. They are supposed to ensure investors are made aware of such inherent risks that are material. And I would call tens of billions losses material, woudn't you?