Dale Farm Gypsy Solidarity Group------merged

[Injin]

It may be racist, but it also happens to be true.

This is one of the few occasions in life when being racist against a group of people happens to go some way to securing the safety and wellbeing of your family and possessions. I'll take being labelled selfish and racist in this instance thanks, because I've been on the receiving end of outright thuggery and theft by more pikeys in my lifetime than any other group of people.

But no.

There are a group of people who have told you more lies, stolen more of your stuff and bullied you more than the pikeys.

David Cameron is their current leader, iirc.

[pete.hpc]

Bosh brought up kicking them out of country, because they were Irish. I merely pointed out that many English squatted in Ireland and killed far more.

I know perspective is unwelcome when mouths are frothing, but spare me the insults, please.

Should we up sticks and go and behave appallingly in Germany then? will you be there to stand up for me robbing and fighting locals whilst dumping shitstained mattresses on their front lawns just because Germany once behaved appallingly?

Your argument is totally irrelevant, but actually very dangerous, because many other people are hiding behind the same nonsensical political point scoring whilst people suffer at the hands of these people.

Ever lived near a traveller encampment?

[pete.hpc]

But no.

There are a group of people who have told you more lies, stolen more of your stuff and bullied you more than the pikeys.

David Cameron is their current leader, iirc.

The stuff the state "steal" and the way they bully me is absolutely fine, doesn't bother me at all.

[BalancedBear]

I have not fully followed this story, but I thought I heard somewhere that the land was a scrapyard before it was purchased by the travelers? It seems they did get planning permission to occupy some of the land, but not the majority of it. I guess the council did not want to grant any further consent? My guess is that if housing association had bought the land to build houses on it, planning permission would have been granted for the entire site. This seems to have nothing to do with planning law, but the use of planning law to deny the change of use to something the locals do not want, even though there is no policy or environmental reason why a site could not receive planning consent for use as a traveler site.

If I lived close to such a site I too would probably not want the site near myself. However the illegality of the site itself is a product of the planning law being used against the travelers, if I understand it correctly. Sure they have no planning consent, but only because it has been denied for reasons which have been manipulated.

[Traktion]

I also struggle to see the point you're trying to make. How is the behaviour of the British (not English) in Ireland, related to the issue of a bunch of travellers flaunting planning legislation in Essex? In what way does it constitute "perspective"? Sure worse things happen than having your pub burnt down or whatever but that's no reason for condoning or excusing people doing so.

England was at the heart of it. Britain in the modern sense is very different to what it was then. I'll not get snagged on semantics though.

A few random Irish toe rags have done far less damage than the British state you are cheering on, did to the Irish. That's why it's important to get perspective. Neither acts are condonable, but the latter is far worse than the former.

So what if they did? Two wrongs don't make a right. It's not perspective because it's not relevent.

You're arguing either for or against the state here. I'm highlighting what atrocities each side has done. The travellers seem to come out as doing far less evil.

[Traktion]

Should we up sticks and go and behave appallingly in Germany then? will you be there to stand up for me robbing and fighting locals whilst dumping shitstained mattresses on their front lawns just because Germany once behaved appallingly?

Your argument is totally irrelevant, but actually very dangerous, because many other people are hiding behind the same nonsensical political point scoring whilst people suffer at the hands of these people.

Ever lived near a traveller encampment?

As I said above, two wrongs don't make a right. However, you're backing a state which murdered 100,000s over a group of people who have killed a few dogs and left some litter.

I respect their right to make a stand in the face of having their freedoms oppressed through recent arbitrary laws. Their violence and theft is likely a product of them being hemmed into their reservations - how would you feel in their position?

I've not lived near a traveller encampment though, no. Going all 'daily wail' isn't going to solve the predicament though.

[GloomMonger]

But no.

There are a group of people who have told you more lies, stolen more of your stuff and bullied you more than the pikeys.

David Cameron is their current leader, iirc.

True, but it feels acceptable when it's applied to us all!

[pete.hpc]

you're backing a state which murdered 100,000s

Yawn

I've not lived near a traveller encampment though, no.

Surprise surprise

[EvilEdna]

England was at the heart of it. Britain in the modern sense is very different to what it was then. I'll not get snagged on semantics though.

A few random Irish toe rags have done far less damage than the British state you are cheering on, did to the Irish. That's why it's important to get perspective. Neither acts are condonable, but the latter is far worse than the former.

You're arguing either for or against the state here. I'm highlighting what atrocities each side has done. The travellers seem to come out as doing far less evil.

What do you mean each side? This isn't a war. These are unrelated, or at best distantly related, events. In fact I don't think the travellers' nationality has got much to do with it at all. If they were Romanian travellers I'm sure they'd meet a similar reception. Where exactly do you draw the line anyway? If you're not talking about Britain in the "modern sense" is it Cromwell you're thinking of or what?

[Traktion]

Yawn

Surprise surprise

I'm sorry that war killing 100,000s bores you. I guess you better get back to reading the wail and complaining about some poisoned cats - clearly much more important!

If I wanted to build in a field, I'd get the same NIMBYs and state officials sniffing around me too. That's they point. All this fluff about whether gypsies are good or bad people is beside the point.

[pete.hpc]

I'm sorry that war killing 100,000s bores you.

Oh ffs, can you go somewhere else where they're discussing English and Irish politics please?

This has nothing to do with this discussion.

[Traktion]

What do you mean each side? This isn't a war. These are unrelated, or at best distantly related, events. In fact I don't think the travellers' nationality has got much to do with it at all. If they were Romanian travellers I'm sure they'd meet a similar reception. Where exactly do you draw the line anyway? If you're not talking about Britain in the "modern sense" is it Cromwell you're thinking of or what?

As I said, I didn't bring up kicking them out because they were Irish. That was Bosh.

It isn't about drawing the line between any individual conflict. It is highlighting what entity caused the wars - the state.

A few anarchists don't tend to raise armies and go around pillaging other countries. Ireland (incidentally) minded its own business for over 1,000 years, without a state or taxes. It didn't start any big wars and neither did the clans who inhabited it (some fighting of course, but not on the epic scale that the state musters). Guess who ended that?

To draw it together, the gypsies are a few anarchists, who are being oppressed by the British state. That's why parallels have to be drawn, when people start throwing around accusations about who is the most evil.

Britain as in England was pretty much another name for Great Britain at the time. Nationalism within GB is a relatively recent resurgence, from what I have read.

[Pent Up]

Thankfully the deluded fools here are in the minority. I'm sure sense will prevail in this situation and after 10 years of hell those living in the village and surroundings areas can breath a huge sigh of relief.

I find it absolutely beyond belief that anyone can support these criminals. Injin I can understand with his anti-statist extremism but I'm shocked that others on here actually truly support them.

Maybe they should came and visit after dark one night and we can for a walk down oak lane. They'd soon change their mind when they are picking their teeth up off the floor.

[Traktion]

Oh ffs, can you go somewhere else where they're discussing English and Irish politics please?

This has nothing to do with this discussion.

Then stop talking about kicking out the Irish gypsies back to Ireland then. That had nothing to do with the debate either, which is why I mentioned it in the first place.

Feel free to put me on ignore. I won't be missing any ignorant 'debates' with you anyway.

[Injin]

Thankfully the deluded fools here are in the minority. I'm sure sense will prevail in this situation and after 10 years of hell those living in the village and surroundings areas can breath a huge sigh of relief.

I find it absolutely beyond belief that anyone can support these criminals. Injin I can understand with his anti-statist extremism but I'm shocked that others on here actually truly support them.

Maybe they should came and visit after dark one night and we can for a walk down oak lane. They'd soon change their mind when they are picking their teeth up off the floor.

Woah woah.

I don't support them at all. I am well aware of the shit pikeys can cause.

It's just that, lesser of two evils.......

[sun n sea]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2031921/Dale-Farm-eviction-Bailiffs-set-bulldoze-Europes-largest-illegal-campsite.html

I'm not sure if these are the anarchists in the media 'smash stuff up' sense or genuine anarchists who can see the evils of planning permissions and abuse of property rights. TBH, if I lived closer, I'd probably go along to join the protest too.

Just like the native American Indians, these people were first herded into reservations and now they're even having these few rights abused.

100 years ago, they would have had a right to settle anywhere, but now they are bound up in immoral laws, rules and regulations, with NIMBYs squealing for 'justice'.

It's an interesting front line in the clash between statism and anarchism. I don't know if much will come from it, but it's interesting to read. Has a nerve been struck?

EDIT: P.S. Don't worry, I don't read the wail. A neighbour told me about the article!

If I lived closer to Dale farm I'd offer you a lift....

[Pent Up]

I have not fully followed this story, but I thought I heard somewhere that the land was a scrapyard before it was purchased by the travelers? It seems they did get planning permission to occupy some of the land, but not the majority of it. I guess the council did not want to grant any further consent? My guess is that if housing association had bought the land to build houses on it, planning permission would have been granted for the entire site. This seems to have nothing to do with planning law, but the use of planning law to deny the change of use to something the locals do not want, even though there is no policy or environmental reason why a site could not receive planning consent for use as a traveler site.

If I lived close to such a site I too would probably not want the site near myself. However the illegality of the site itself is a product of the planning law being used against the travelers, if I understand it correctly. Sure they have no planning consent, but only because it has been denied for reasons which have been manipulated.

There was a scrap yard there previously yes, next door to the legal plots. The scrapyard was built on green belt without planning permission. (I have the impression it was not gypsy but I can't remember fully) they forced the scrap yard off and the land was sold to the current owners the Irish pikeys. They moved and fought with many of the gypsy families who were already there, who eventually moved elsewhere allowing more if the Irish ones to come.

The council dragged it heels to begin with 10 years ago which allowed the camp to gradually increase in size until today. It's now the biggest illegal "traveller" camp in Europe!

[EvilEdna]

As I said, I didn't bring up kicking them out because they were Irish. That was Bosh.

It isn't about drawing the line between any individual conflict. It is highlighting what entity caused the wars - the state.

A few anarchists don't tend to raise armies and go around pillaging other countries. Ireland (incidentally) minded its own business for over 1,000 years, without a state or taxes. It didn't start any big wars and neither did the clans who inhabited it (some fighting of course, but not on the epic scale that the state musters). Guess who ended that?

To draw it together, the gypsies are a few anarchists, who are being oppressed by the British state. That's why parallels have to be drawn, when people start throwing around accusations about who is the most evil.

Britain as in England was pretty much another name for Great Britain at the time. Nationalism within GB is a relatively recent resurgence, from what I have read.

OK I think I get you now. What your saying is that there's a conflict between the British state and a bunch of travellers and that in the grand scheme of things the British state is responsible for far worse than the travellers, and that actually we'd be far better off without states altogether. Is that a fair summary?

I'm not sure the travellers are noble anti-state anarchists - scroungers is perhaps a bit more accurate. I'm sure their quite happy to accept state benefits. In any case their conflict isn't with with the warmongering evil British state of a thousand year's ago, it's with the local council - the worst their responsible for is failing to collect the bins on time.

[pete.hpc]

Then stop talking about kicking out the Irish gypsies back to Ireland then.

errr.....pardon?

[profitofdoom]

As I said, I didn't bring up kicking them out because they were Irish. That was Bosh.

It isn't about drawing the line between any individual conflict. It is highlighting what entity caused the wars - the state.

A few anarchists don't tend to raise armies and go around pillaging other countries. Ireland (incidentally) minded its own business for over 1,000 years, without a state or taxes. It didn't start any big wars and neither did the clans who inhabited it (some fighting of course, but not on the epic scale that the state musters). Guess who ended that?

To draw it together, the gypsies are a few anarchists, who are being oppressed by the British state. That's why parallels have to be drawn, when people start throwing around accusations about who is the most evil.

Britain as in England was pretty much another name for Great Britain at the time. Nationalism within GB is a relatively recent resurgence, from what I have read.

I don't disagree with the principle of your argument and I actually think that as a nation we asked for it from the IRA for how the Irish were treated.However we are talking about Gyppos.I deal with them on a regular basis and some of them really are sub human and totally amoral.I wouldn't want to live any nearer to them than I do (About a mile)

[Traktion]

OK I think I get you now. What your saying is that there's a conflict between the British state and a bunch of travellers and that in the grand scheme of things the British state is responsible for far worse than the travellers, and that actually we'd be far better off without states altogether. Is that a fair summary?

I'm not sure the travellers are noble anti-state anarchists - scroungers is perhaps a bit more accurate. I'm sure their quite happy to accept state benefits. In any case their conflict isn't with with the warmongering evil British state of a thousand year's ago, it's with the local council - the worst their responsible for is failing to collect the bins on time.

Yup, that's pretty much it.

If they're offered state benefits, I'm sure they will take them (I'm sure they're not daft), but I doubt you will get much tax out of them (other than VAT, I suppose). I think I read further up in the thread that they wouldn't let the bin men or the post men in either.

As for the evil British state of a thousand years ago, we still seem to be doing plenty of killing in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya. I'm sure that's all necessary evil though, right? I bet oil and control has nothing to do with it.

Besides, refuse the state your taxes and you will soon see their evil side again.

[Traktion]

I don't disagree with the principle of your argument and I actually think that as a nation we asked for it from the IRA for how the Irish were treated.However we are talking about Gyppos.I deal with them on a regular basis and some of them really are sub human and totally amoral.I wouldn't want to live any nearer to them than I do (About a mile)

Sure, they are hardly shining examples of human behaviour, but focussing on the small scale crimes they do are trivial in comparison to what the state inflicts.

It wouldn't just be travellers who would be removed from their land if planning laws were flouted; it would happen to any one of us. If we built a house on some land, the state would come and knock it down, likely fine you for the privilege, and if you refused to pay it they would threaten you with jail. If you resisted jail to the full extent of your ability, they would shoot you (ie. if you defended yourself with weapons to resist being jailed).

Forget about the gypsies and their rancid behaviour - it's beside the point.

[Pent Up]

Woah woah.

I don't support them at all. I am well aware of the shit pikeys can cause.

It's just that, lesser of two evils.......

Good to hear it.

[Bosh]

As I said, I didn't bring up kicking them out because they were Irish. That was Bosh.

Race card.......FAIL:

At no point in any post have I said to kick them out because they were Irish. My wife is Irish.

Oh Dear..

[EvilEdna]

Yup, that's pretty much it.

If they're offered state benefits, I'm sure they will take them (I'm sure they're not daft), but I doubt you will get much tax out of them (other than VAT, I suppose). I think I read further up in the thread that they wouldn't let the bin men or the post men in either.

As for the evil British state of a thousand years ago, we still seem to be doing plenty of killing in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Libya. I'm sure that's all necessary evil though, right? I bet oil and control has nothing to do with it.

Besides, refuse the state your taxes and you will soon see their evil side again.

I'm not sure if I agree with you but I guess I sort of see your point now. Personally I'm a big fan of bin men, hospitals, schools etc. Tony Blair ignoring a million people marching against the Iraq war really makes me mad though. If there was any justice in the world he'd be on trial.