Accountability In Teaching

[Tomlad]

to be honest, I think half the point is comparing personnel-practices evident in teaching (and other public sector fields) that are so utterly different from generic effective practices in other fields of work

Indeed. There are some unique practices. You should see what an interview for a teaching post involves these days...

[desperate young]

Ok final bite, my girlfriend is a primary teacher and works about 60 per week term time. It is a good school, when teaching I have only worked in good schools. The education system has seemed far from a shambles , very professional in fact .

Some of these poor schools probably are a shamed, who can stomach working in one for the money they offer?

I merely object to the jumping on the press hand wagon on here sometimes of something people here have little understanding of.

A lot of our society is broken and needs fixing , schools, in my experience isn't one of them. Start with other areas of society first.

Why do you think the school didnt just get rid of him? It's not the union, its that there are no better replacements because the pay is poor.

[tallguy]

Feck me, you daily-wail readers are so predictable

The bile that pours out at the slightest excuse. It would make a good social study.

[Si1]

No, I watched the documentary and if you'd bother to watch it (which you plainly haven't), you'd see the chief inspector of schools, Chris Woodhead (1994 - 2000). make the case that he considers there are 15,000 incompetent teachers in schools, i.e. 4.7% of the profession.

He makes the point that amongst other professions incompetence runs at about 5 - 10%.

is this saying that in other professions - they are simply weeded out by the usual means?

[MarkG]

I merely object to the jumping on the press hand wagon on here sometimes of something people here have little understanding of.

You'd almost imagine that being forced to spend most of the first twenty years of their life in a classroom would give the average Briton a pretty good understanding of what schools are like.

A lot of our society is broken and needs fixing , schools, in my experience isn't one of them.

Schools are broken by design, and British schools are more broken than most. You don't have to spend much time with recent products of British state schools to realise that the whole system is incompetent, not just a few teachers.

[Tomlad]

I see Sir has taken his ball and left. Still he probably doesn't get this type of robust argument in the staffroom amongst his Observer and Guardian reading colleagues.

Here's a very apt quote that somes up why I disappeared last night:

"If I don't respond to a post made by you directly to me it's because I'm ignoring you, I suspect it's because I've tried and failed to have a constructive debate with you. This is quite probably due to your lack of intellect, experience of life or both. Sorry, but life's too short to waste it on the uneducated or unenlightened." Bulltraderpt

Now, I'm off to enjoy my sunday, just like I enjoyed last night after a switched off from your nonsense and did something useful.

[desperate young]

Here's a very apt quote that somes up why I disappeared last night:

"If I don't respond to a post made by you directly to me it's because I'm ignoring you, I suspect it's because I've tried and failed to have a constructive debate with you. This is quite probably due to your lack of intellect, experience of life or both. Sorry, but life's too short to waste it on the uneducated or unenlightened." Bulltraderpt

Now, I'm off to enjoy my sunday, just like I enjoyed last night after a switched off from your nonsense and did something useful.

Agreed Tomlad. We and others have made these same points about teaching and parts of the public sector again and again. There is nothing reasonable about their counter arguments they are simply hate driven posts that are extremely repitive and far from robust.

We have told you that the fact of our experience the system is far from broken, it is in fact very professional. I will not keep restating this it is a waste of time, I have a life to enjoy! I am sorry the facts of our experience does not meet your skewed view of the world.

As to the I went to school so I understand it view....

1) That was probably a number of years ago

2) You were by definition a child

3) Just because you experience something doesn't mean you understand it, I have watched TV my whole life all I see is the end product I do not see or understand everything that goes on behind the scenes.

As to the 'poor girl' (how patronising!) that left her job following her comments. I suspect that this was a shrewd political move on her part and I am sure in the long run she will do well out of it.

The former chief inspector will also have made a polticially judged comment.

There are many other serious social issues that are reflected in some schools in some areas, in some schools everyone is massively over stretched and the pay isn't equal to the level of qualification or the stress of the job. This is not the case across the board far far from it.

I suspect that the people on here who hate teachers and other public sector workers, despite whatever they may say, know someone who is in one of these sectors and is doing better than them and cannot accept this. How can this possibly be fair? Cut all of the salaries in half and fire half of them, that will fix it! What a fantastically robust argument and this is what it all boils down to. I work in IT now and personally prefer it, I earn more money, have an easier life style. This is not a moral choice, I cannot believe it is for many of you all, it simply provides me with a better standard of life. Do not short change our children by attacking the very people who work hard to provide them with a future.

I am off to enjoy a nice walk in the countryside now so will not respond to this. Not because I will not stand up to a robust argument ( I haven't seen one yet) but beacuse I want to enjoy the rest of my day. Try to enjoy your life and avoid jumping on the powers that be's press driven agenda because you have some odd grudge.

PS- Please don't pretend this is all about taxes and being robbed! This argument is useless without these taxes and some form of redistrubution the rich would get richer and richer and you would be an uneducated peasent!

[Si1]

Perhaps but not always, the documentary makes interesting watching because it shows a culture of not reporting amongst teachers (in this programme admittedly), so Heads carry them.

It stands to reason that 5 - 10% of any profession has to be incompetent, it's how the teaching profession choose to deal with it or not is what now matters.

indeed - promoting incompetence out of view is an incompetent way of dealing with it

[Si1]

We have told you that the fact of our experience the system is far from broken, it is in fact very professional. I will not keep restating this it is a waste of time, I have a life to enjoy! [paid for by whom?] I am sorry the facts of our experience does not meet your skewed view of the world.

which is why we have some of the worst education indicators in the developed world, and the highest government deficit

stands to reason.

the **facts**, so to speak.

[Orsino]

I don't know why this teacher is now considering being a social worker. As a former head of a Business Studies department surely his valuable knowledge of the world of commerce will be keenly sought after by the private sector.

The Left have been making dire warnings about the impact of Government spending cuts on children. Shame they never have the same concerns when an abysmal teacher blights the education of almost a generation of school kids. Clearly his right to be useless and incompetent is more important than their future prospects.

[Timak]

Given that 20k teachers quit to pursue other careers each year can we not assume that those unable to cope are more likely to be amongst those leaving?

I can't imagine many people would be happy in a career they were completely incompetent in and it is therefore not much of a suprise that there aren't many teachers sacked for incompetence - they leave on their own accord.

[Si1]

Given that 20k teachers quit to pursue other careers each year can we not assume that those unable to cope are more likely to be amongst those leaving?

I can't imagine many people would be happy in a career they were completely incompetent in and it is therefore not much of a suprise that there aren't many teachers sacked for incompetence - they leave on their own accord.

according to this:

http://www.independe...on-1854758.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article3101291.ece

the leaving rates doubled from the year 2000 due to bad centralised high level management

still, nothing can't be fixed by a good dose of over-spending on education eh

[neon tetra]

Mmmmmmmmm

I remember (on more than one occasion) having to change my book with someone else in the class while we did a group marking. Was that teacher being clever by eating into our time and not theirs?

This is an "instant feedback" exercise, so can be very useful. Also, if the students go through the same thought processes as the person marking it, it can help them to improve how they set out their own work.

[noodle doodle]

Actually, the first teacher to be banned for incompetence was in scotland in 2008, though as the smellygraph's catchment consists solely of south-east england I doubt their research extended that far

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/article5282481.ece

As said by someone else, most incompetent teachers quit of their own violition, how this guy got to head of dept is beyond me, he must have been organisationally inept at managing the dept if that was the level he was caught at and the kids didn't force him out. If you're crap at your job you've got 30 kids in every class pointing it out vocally you'd piss off somewhere else toot sweet, something laminated paperclip salesman don't suffer