desperate young Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 I dont hate the public sector. I worked IN IT for years. I deal with it today. I have friends working there NOW. the money is gone...we CANT AFFORD The luxury of paying people so much....they will take us ALL DOWN. 50% OFF all public sector salaries above 25K is my mantra. thats for starters.... Sorry Bloo I do not agree. It may be bloated in some areas in terms of numbers. Salaries in some things need to be kept the same and go up with inflation as they should in the private sector. The reasons we are in this mess is not the size of public sector wages, Headteachers, doctors etc have always been relatively well paid. The reason is the the profits of the rich and bankers have been privatised and the losses socialised. Have we forgotten this already?! They are still paying the same bonuses, their salaries have gone through the roof! This is an obvious sideshow, it amazes me so many on here have fallen for it. It is so blatant, turning as many sections of society against each other as possible, benefit frauds, tax dodgers, the poor, the middle, the immigrants, the publc, the private sector. WAKE UP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blod Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 In praise of Gordon Brown, he refused the pension that comes with the PM job. Cameron gets over 3 million, even if he leaves today. Easily surpassing even grasping teachers and council staff. You won't hear it often, but taxpayers owe a big thankyou to Mr. Brown. Agreed, he wanted to do the best in his mind for the country, it's just that he was living in the "Westminster Village" version of the country so ended up totally rogering us instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia O'Keeffe Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 (edited) Sorry Bloo I do not agree. It may be bloated in some areas in terms of numbers. Salaries in some things need to be kept the same and go up with inflation as they should in the private sector. The reasons we are in this mess is not the size of public sector wages, Headteachers, doctors etc have always been relatively well paid. The reason is the the profits of the rich and bankers have been privatised and the losses socialised. Have we forgotten this already?! They are still paying the same bonuses, their salaries have gone through the roof! This is an obvious sideshow, it amazes me so many on here have fallen for it. It is so blatant, turning as many sections of society against each other as possible, benefit frauds, tax dodgers, the poor, the middle, the immigrants, the publc, the private sector. WAKE UP! you live in a dream world, the inflated salaries of the public sector and inflated expansion only happened because of the increased revenue from taxes created by the ponzi banking, as soon as the ponzi banking blew up the illusory money dissappeared, the public sector salaries and headcount is only there because of the fraud. To try to justify it is effectively wishing for a return of the fraudulent profits of banking and therefore fraudulent banking you are effectively trying to justify something by castigating the very thing that produced it and thats not to ignore private sector executive salaries which have been inflated by the very same disease. You have no idea how diseased the entire money supply and thus economy has become over the last 30 years but you will have a much better understanding in a few years time Edited September 20, 2010 by Tamara De Lempicka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 I agree in some cases there is a need for some more accountability. In most cases I do not agree. I have seen both private and public sector organisations. I honestly believe there is far more accountability in the public sector ie governors of schools, trustees of hospitals. the private sector is primarily accountabkle to the market, and therefore does not require trustees. it is not blind rage, it is pent up frustration Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 The reasons we are in this mess is not the size of public sector wages, Headteachers, doctors etc have always been relatively well paid. which mess are you talking about - or just using rampant generalisation to obfuscate the issue in this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNACR Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 it is not however conducive to a modern and progressive society. Good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 it is not however conducive to a modern and progressive society. please define this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperate young Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 which mess are you talking about - or just using rampant generalisation to obfuscate the issue in this thread? The mess of the huge deficit. Tamara- agreed, I am being too simplistic, but in these general terms I suppose I am arguing that all wages should be relative. The public and private sector are all part of a market. The problem is they are both flawed markets, but to argue the private sector is less blighted by inherent unfairness and a fixed market is comical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benzlife Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Sorry Bloo I do not agree. It may be bloated in some areas in terms of numbers. Salaries in some things need to be kept the same and go up with inflation as they should in the private sector. The reasons we are in this mess is not the size of public sector wages, Headteachers, doctors etc have always been relatively well paid. The reason is the the profits of the rich and bankers have been privatised and the losses socialised. Have we forgotten this already?! They are still paying the same bonuses, their salaries have gone through the roof! This is an obvious sideshow, it amazes me so many on here have fallen for it. It is so blatant, turning as many sections of society against each other as possible, benefit frauds, tax dodgers, the poor, the middle, the immigrants, the publc, the private sector. WAKE UP! So all this propaganda, as you claim it is, serves what purpose? How does turning parts of society against each other help their cause and what is the end game of these shadowy characters that control our society. Who are they? And what do you think it means for us in the long term? I'm genuinely interested, if cynical.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Sorry Bloo I do not agree. It may be bloated in some areas in terms of numbers. Salaries in some things need to be kept the same and go up with inflation as they should in the private sector. The reasons we are in this mess is not the size of public sector wages, Headteachers, doctors etc have always been relatively well paid. The reason is the the profits of the rich and bankers have been privatised and the losses socialised. Have we forgotten this already?! They are still paying the same bonuses, their salaries have gone through the roof! This is an obvious sideshow, it amazes me so many on here have fallen for it. It is so blatant, turning as many sections of society against each other as possible, benefit frauds, tax dodgers, the poor, the middle, the immigrants, the publc, the private sector. WAKE UP! I condemn the PUBLIC SECTOR rescue of the banks. I consistenty call for the closing of many busted banks. I condemn the massive waste and ENTITLEMENT rife in the PUBLIC SECTOR. they are both two sides of the same coin..Government OUT OF CONTROL. NO person is ENTITLED to anything from another man...they have to earn it...to GET their entitlement and cause the utlimate destruction of our society is EVIL. I condemn the ASSUMPTION that high pay is a RIGHT, and as such, IS due, regardless of the damage it does to society. I condemn the idea that inflation is caused by salaries.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperate young Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 please define this I think this definition is a good starting point. A quote from John Lewis founder John Spedan Lewis (in the 1920s): "The present state of affairs is really a perversion of the proper working of capitalism. It is all wrong to have millionaires before you have ceased to have slums. Capitalism has done enormous good and suits human nature far too well to be given up as long as human nature remains the same. But the perversion has given us too unstable a society. Differences of reward must be large enough to induce people to do their best but the present differences are far too great. "If we do not find some way of correcting that perversion of capitalism, our society will break down. We shall find ourselves back in some form of government without the consent of the governed, some form of police state. "The dividends of some shareholders exceed their own highest hopes, hopes that may have been much too greedy, and the incomes of the more fortunate of the captains of industry are many times as great as would have caused the same persons to work just as hard and for just as many years if, instead of going into business, they had happened to become, say, lawyers or doctors. This is quite wrong." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 The mess of the huge deficit. Tamara- agreed, I am being too simplistic, but in these general terms I suppose I am arguing that all wages should be relative. The public and private sector are all part of a market. The problem is they are both flawed markets, but to argue the private sector is less blighted by inherent unfairness and a fixed market is comical. The public sector is paid for by extortion. The market isn't, and that's the actual difference between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 I think this definition is a good starting point. A quote from John Lewis founder John Spedan Lewis (in the 1920s): "The present state of affairs is really a perversion of the proper working of capitalism. It is all wrong to have millionaires before you have ceased to have slums. Capitalism has done enormous good and suits human nature far too well to be given up as long as human nature remains the same. But the perversion has given us too unstable a society. Differences of reward must be large enough to induce people to do their best but the present differences are far too great. "If we do not find some way of correcting that perversion of capitalism, our society will break down. We shall find ourselves back in some form of government without the consent of the governed, some form of police state. "The dividends of some shareholders exceed their own highest hopes, hopes that may have been much too greedy, and the incomes of the more fortunate of the captains of industry are many times as great as would have caused the same persons to work just as hard and for just as many years if, instead of going into business, they had happened to become, say, lawyers or doctors. This is quite wrong." that is an argument for co-operatives and gilds, not the public sector, tho' if a major issue you have is with corporate greed then I would not disagree, however, the solution is not the public sector status quo and the deficit has been building since 2002 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easy2012 Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 I think this definition is a good starting point. A quote from John Lewis founder John Spedan Lewis (in the 1920s): "The present state of affairs is really a perversion of the proper working of capitalism. It is all wrong to have millionaires before you have ceased to have slums. Capitalism has done enormous good and suits human nature far too well to be given up as long as human nature remains the same. But the perversion has given us too unstable a society. Differences of reward must be large enough to induce people to do their best but the present differences are far too great. "If we do not find some way of correcting that perversion of capitalism, our society will break down. We shall find ourselves back in some form of government without the consent of the governed, some form of police state. "The dividends of some shareholders exceed their own highest hopes, hopes that may have been much too greedy, and the incomes of the more fortunate of the captains of industry are many times as great as would have caused the same persons to work just as hard and for just as many years if, instead of going into business, they had happened to become, say, lawyers or doctors. This is quite wrong." And please enlighten me - what did he do after saying that? Did he paid his checkout staff a very good wages so that they too can become millionaire? Capitalism is a pyramid scheme that needs many poorer people at the bottom of the pyramid for it to work. It is a pretty bad system except that we don't have a better alternative (like a utopian communist state where nobody cheats). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperate young Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 I condemn the PUBLIC SECTOR rescue of the banks. I consistenty call for the closing of many busted banks. I condemn the massive waste and ENTITLEMENT rife in the PUBLIC SECTOR. they are both two sides of the same coin..Government OUT OF CONTROL. NO person is ENTITLED to anything from another man...they have to earn it...to GET their entitlement and cause the utlimate destruction of our society is EVIL. I condemn the ASSUMPTION that high pay is a RIGHT, and as such, IS due, regardless of the damage it does to society. I condemn the idea that inflation is caused by salaries.... I think Bloo we are both arguing for the same thing, just in a different way. I would like to see a world where everyone who works is entitled to a reasonable standard of living, nothing special just to live, not work excessive hours and have time to enjoy their lives. I do not think this is unreasonable. If this means everyone having a cut then so be it,but likewise if this meant everyone having a rise this would be fine. FIAT money, bah! The important thing is there is some relative relationship for risk, reward etc in both the public and private sector. I do not believe in any conspiracy theories. I just think that the rich are playing a strong hand at the moment and manipulating the situation to their advantage and fear is getting the better of the rest of us in trying to work out our angle. Right, been interesting talking to you all. Bed time for me, early start at work in the morning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperate young Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 The public sector is paid for by extortion. The market isn't, and that's the actual difference between the two. If we could go back to the beginning maybe. But there are some services that people simply would not pay for yet are needed. Under such a system capitalism would become totally corrupt. You would have no rules and return to feudalism, nepitism would be rife. A true free market as an ideology is as flawed as a true socialist state. They are just opposite ends of the scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiCasaSuCasa Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 (edited) Ok I'll bite. Do you think that the average CEO now performs better because they are paid 250 times their workers (compared with 25 times, as in the 1970s)? And likewise in the recent explosion in management salaries in the public sector? If you do you are a fool. To say that GPs have always been well paid is nonsense - why not pay them all the same as footballers (because they do a good job), I suppose? How do you motivate someone that has more money than they can spend in several lifetimes? Answer - you can't. That people have let them get away with it for so long is a crime. Rising inequality between the richest and the poor does not benefit society at all and should be stopped. Edited September 20, 2010 by MiCasaSuCasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia O'Keeffe Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 (edited) I think Bloo we are both arguing for the same thing, just in a different way. I would like to see a world where everyone who works is entitled to a reasonable standard of living, nothing special just to live, not work excessive hours and have time to enjoy their lives. I do not think this is unreasonable. If this means everyone having a cut then so be it,but likewise if this meant everyone having a rise this would be fine. FIAT money, bah! The important thing is there is some relative relationship for risk, reward etc in both the public and private sector. I do not believe in any conspiracy theories. I just think that the rich are playing a strong hand at the moment and manipulating the situation to their advantage and fear is getting the better of the rest of us in trying to work out our angle. Right, been interesting talking to you all. Bed time for me, early start at work in the morning. actually fiat is fundamental to all of this it is ultimately the public sector that has done this (govt) there is one simple cause and that is excessive monetary inflation which is a purely political incarnation as a result of fiat, , every other distortion and disparity that develops over time is a direct and inevitable time proven result of human reaction to inflation, it always without fail has this same end result throughout history Edited September 20, 2010 by Tamara De Lempicka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperate young Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Ok I'll bite. Do you think that the average CEO now performs better because they are paid 250 times their workers (compared with 25 times, as in the 1970s)? And likewise in the recent explosion in management salaries in the public sector? If you do you are a fool. To say that GPs have always been well paid is nonsense - why not pay them all the same as footballers (because they do a good job), I suppose? How do you motivate someone that has more money than they can spend in several lifetimes? Answer - you can't. That people have let them get away with it for so long is a crime. Rising inequality between the richest and the poor does not benefit society at all and should be stopped. 100% agreed. I am not arguing for excessive salaries, just against public sector bashing that is rife on here without any understanding of the reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperate young Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 actually fiat is fundamental to all of this it is ultimately the public sector that has done this (govt) there is one simple cause and that is excessive monetary inflation which is a purely political incarnation as a result of fiat, , every other distortion and disparity that develops over time is a direct and inevitable time proven result of human reaction to inflation, it always without fail has this same end result throughout history Agreed, that was my badly made point, who do you think really has control of the money supply the banks or a democratic government? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 (edited) If we could go back to the beginning maybe. But there are some services that people simply would not pay for yet are needed. Can't be. Makes no sense. Under such a system capitalism would become totally corrupt. You would have no rules and return to feudalism, nepitism would be rife. yeah cos it's not like that now. A true free market as an ideology is as flawed as a true socialist state. They are just opposite ends of the scale. A free market is just where you don't get beaten up for saying no. That's all. Edited September 20, 2010 by Injin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Agreed, that was my badly made point, who do you think really has control of the money supply the banks or a democratic government? Bunch of crims A or bunch of crims B - what's the difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNACR Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Agreed, that was my badly made point, who do you think really has control of the money supply the banks or a democratic government? Do they wear stove-pipe hats and practice primae noctis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desperate young Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 (edited) Bunch of crims A or bunch of crims B - what's the difference? You miss my point. Edited September 20, 2010 by desperate young Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SNACR Posted September 20, 2010 Share Posted September 20, 2010 Bunch of crims A or bunch of crims B - what's the difference? Preferable to anarcho-mentalist option C? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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