Boom Boom Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 We could scrap the following JSA Tax credits of all forms Child benefit State pension DLA/Incapacity benefit Replace with £200/wk citizen's wage, available to all citizen's once they reach 18 years of age Taxation system would be a flat 30% on anything earned over the citizen's wage Now, on the face of it, you'd expect Capitalists to support a system like this, but of course they wouldn't as it would empower people such that they would have the option not to take work that did not pay a rate they were happy with. For all their bleating, the truth is the status quo, suits the neoliberal agenda just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AteMoose Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 (edited) I agree with a citizens wage 100%, but it wouldn't be popular with people who are currenrly on a range of benefits who get more than 200 quid a week... Edited March 16, 2010 by AteMoose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pootle Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Replace with £200/wk citizen's wage, available to all citizen's once they reach 18 years of age How do you fund this? Please show your sums! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Been tried, doesn't work. Heres how it goes - Step 1 - you allocate 1 group in society the monopoly power to tax everyone else just for breathing Step 2 - whatever they want to happen, happens and you now have zero say. If you argue, it's off to the gulag/concentration camp/killing fields Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashinmattress Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 (edited) Enough with the philosophical debates on bloody land taxes already! Ain't gonna happen, especially when the same bloodlines have owned 95% of the land in the UK for centuries, and will remain to do so. Unless you can remove the aristocracy and their cronies through revolution or other means, you're be better off talking up cold fusion as it is more likely to materialize within your lifetime. EDIT: Citizens wage too.... implies that a 'citizen' has to earn the right to be one, therefore would have to sacrifice something to keep it that way. This is a tiny nation full of big lazy stupid Britons. Never here. Nah. Edited March 16, 2010 by cashinmattress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boom Boom Posted March 16, 2010 Author Share Posted March 16, 2010 How do you fund this? Please show your sums! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkil Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Assuming 50million over 18 that's about 10billion per week... 520 billion per year? No chance. To be honest £200pw is set way to high. The basic state pension is £95pw, that should be the upper limit of what should be paid. That's still way to high to be affordable though. £50pw and now you are getting realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pootle Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax That's not what I asked. Show your sums please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boom Boom Posted March 16, 2010 Author Share Posted March 16, 2010 (edited) That's not what I asked. Show your sums please. What sums. You need the nominal land value calculated for all non exempt sites, I don't happen to have these to hand Edited March 16, 2010 by Boom Boom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boom Boom Posted March 16, 2010 Author Share Posted March 16, 2010 Been tried, doesn't work. Heres how it goes - Step 1 - you allocate 1 group in society the monopoly power to tax everyone else just for breathing Step 2 - whatever they want to happen, happens and you now have zero say. If you argue, it's off to the gulag/concentration camp/killing fields Got to be better than living in Injinland under the tyranny of my enormous art installation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pootle Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 What's sums. You need the nominal land value calculated for all non exempt sites, I don't happen to have these to hand So this thread is a bit of a non starter then. You are proposing something that currently cannot be quantified or otherwise enumerated. There is no way of telling if a land value tax could even pay for one weeks worth of a citizens wage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boom Boom Posted March 16, 2010 Author Share Posted March 16, 2010 (edited) Assuming 50million over 18 that's about 10billion per week... 520 billion per year? No chance. To be honest £200pw is set way to high. The basic state pension is £95pw, that should be the upper limit of what should be paid. That's still way to high to be affordable though. £50pw and now you are getting realistic. http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+over+18+uk What do you the weekly cost of all those benefits I mentioned is, plus the staff employed to administrate them? Edited March 16, 2010 by Boom Boom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boom Boom Posted March 16, 2010 Author Share Posted March 16, 2010 So this thread is a bit of a non starter then. You are proposing something that currently cannot be quantified or otherwise enumerated. There is no way of telling if a land value tax could even pay for one weeks worth of a citizens wage. You set it at a rate so that it would. How much do you think e'd save by scrapping all those benefits I mentioned and all the staff associated with them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyOne Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 We could scrap the following JSA Tax credits of all forms Child benefit State pension DLA/Incapacity benefit Replace with £200/wk citizen's wage, available to all citizen's once they reach 18 years of age Taxation system would be a flat 30% on anything earned over the citizen's wage Now, on the face of it, you'd expect Capitalists to support a system like this, but of course they wouldn't as it would empower people such that they would have the option not to take work that did not pay a rate they were happy with. For all their bleating, the truth is the status quo, suits the neoliberal agenda just fine. Unlike some who also appear to be on the "right", I am all in favour of this approach. The conditions of acceptance include the following : - Completely dismantle quangos - Completely dismantle the income redistribution infrastructure - Completely dismantle local councils and deliver services nationally - Set the citizen's income at a high enough level that incapacity benefits can be eliminated except in expectional and robustly documented circumstances - Set the citizen's income at a high enough level that everone who has a right to live here feels "included" and do away with things like "diversity co-ordinators", "gay and lesbian inclusion officers" etc - Set the flat tax rate and citizen's incomes at a level that allows us to park where we live, eat and shop without restrictions to save our local shops and communities. I believe that a citizen's income is the most cost efficient means of delivering a minimum standard of living to the nation. I also believe that the left would never accept this approach with a co-incident dismantling of the social services infrastructure as it would destroy their ability to build a client state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guillotine Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Pocket money from the state eh. I'd sooner be left to spend the fruits of my labour on the provisions of services my family and I require. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boom Boom Posted March 16, 2010 Author Share Posted March 16, 2010 Pocket money from the state eh. I'd sooner be left to spend the fruits of my labour on the provisions of services my family and I require. No, a sharing out of monies collected from occupied land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pootle Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 You set it at a rate so that it would. How much do you think e'd save by scrapping all those benefits I mentioned and all the staff associated with them? You wouldn't save any money from sacking all the staff because they would employed as an army of land-valuers Look, if you want to discuss the merits of a land-tax that's fine - start a thread on it. If you want to discuss the merits of a citizens wage that's fine - start a thread on it. Combining two separate discussions is just a recipe for chaos. You cannot show that one will pay for the other so why bother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkil Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=population+over+18+uk What do you the weekly cost of all those benefits I mentioned is, plus the staff employed to administrate them? Using 40million it's "only" 8billion per week. £416billion per year. Total government expenditure in 2009 was about £631billion (according to http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/ ) That site shows that in fiscal year 2010 ( http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/breakdown ) : pensions £119 billion welfare £105 billion By really complex mathematics I make that £224 billion. I expect the actual amount spent on those benefits will be less than that (as it includes more than just the ones you stated). Also remember, that £8b per week doesn't include ANY administrative costs whatsoever. Don't assume a 'simple' system is simple and cheap to administer. At the very least you're going to need an anti-fraud department on top of the general admin side of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 No, a sharing out of monies collected from occupied land. No, a few using legitimised violence to prey on everyone else. The problem is the use of coercion to achieve goals. The solution isn't to create a coercive monopoly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuckyOne Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 We could scrap the following JSA Tax credits of all forms Child benefit State pension DLA/Incapacity benefit Replace with £200/wk citizen's wage, available to all citizen's once they reach 18 years of age Taxation system would be a flat 30% on anything earned over the citizen's wage Now, on the face of it, you'd expect Capitalists to support a system like this, but of course they wouldn't as it would empower people such that they would have the option not to take work that did not pay a rate they were happy with. For all their bleating, the truth is the status quo, suits the neoliberal agenda just fine. In fairness, your thread title is a bit misleading. You are not proposing a land tax at all. You are proposing a flat tax on income from all sources accompanied by a negative income tax rate for low income earners. A flat tax at a much lower rate than the current top marginal rate with no deductions and a ruthless pusuit of "tax cheats" will raise much more tax than our current messy system (search the Laffer Curve for more information if you are sceptical). Efficiency gains from replacing a complex infrastructure with a negative tax rate are also obvious. My only confusion comes from the fact that someone on the "left" would espouse the views of Friedman who is supposedly an anathema to those on the "left". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkil Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 Personally I think a citizens wage is a silly idea. Personally I think it would be simpler remove the tax-free allowance for income and capital gains, abolish NI and just have 'personal tax' on the pooled income and capital gains (with no reduction for capital losses). You could still have a lower and higher rate, say 25% to 40k and 40% over that. Alternatively keep NI and introduce a system where it's put into a UK sovereign wealth fund. You could draw on it (up to the limit of your fund subject to a maximum withdrawl rate) when unemployed and you get the remaining value of it as a tax-free lump sump at retirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boom Boom Posted March 16, 2010 Author Share Posted March 16, 2010 In fairness, your thread title is a bit misleading. You are not proposing a land tax at all. You are proposing a flat tax on income from all sources accompanied by a negative income tax rate for low income earners. A flat tax at a much lower rate than the current top marginal rate with no deductions and a ruthless pusuit of "tax cheats" will raise much more tax than our current messy system (search the Laffer Curve for more information if you are sceptical). Efficiency gains from replacing a complex infrastructure with a negative tax rate are also obvious. My only confusion comes from the fact that someone on the "left" would espouse the views of Friedman who is supposedly an anathema to those on the "left". No, a land tax would be part of this plan. Scrapping the benefits is a result of having a citizen's wage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 No, a land tax would be part of this plan. Scrapping the benefits is a result of having a citizen's wage What's the punishment for not paying your tribute? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkil Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 You're forced to live next to him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitarman001 Posted March 16, 2010 Share Posted March 16, 2010 You know I've never even considered this before! I'd rather keep the money to myself rather than having to pay tax that funds this - but still better than nothing. Currently I'm a single white British male, and get bugger all! In my darkest moments I feel I'm being discriminated against - so many junkies and single mums I know and see walking around must be getting a whack - if ever a vote came on this I would gladly deprive them of their extra benefits to spread it around more fairly to all regardless of circumstance. (Talking about single mums.... a 13 year old girl in my little sisters' school is pregnant...!!!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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