the_duke_of_hazzard Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 No, they don't cover "dead, unused languages", they cover computation. You know, universal truths and all that. Unemployed "generalist" is one thing, unemployable idiot that only knows Java syntax is quite another. Its only a shame it isn't plausible to teach using only Turing machines. Jesus Christ. The rest of it is just you asking for burger flipping degrees which really would suit the educators. Flavour of the month and you can get people back every three years to do yet another degree! We're trying to hire intelligent Comp Sci/programming-oriented clever graduates and are finding that there are slim pickings (it _is_ the wrong time of year, mind). It seems the smart ones still get snapped up. Have to say the degrees are pretty useless, from what I can tell. There's only so much you can learn about a specific technology at a university that's relevant to the industry. We have to divine whether they are switched on enough to "get it" in other ways. I'm talking about grads with good degrees from places like Imperial and UCL - it's surprising how poorly many of them perform in these situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 We're trying to hire intelligent Comp Sci/programming-oriented clever graduates and are finding that there are slim pickings (it _is_ the wrong time of year, mind). It seems the smart ones still get snapped up. Have to say the degrees are pretty useless, from what I can tell. There's only so much you can learn about a specific technology at a university that's relevant to the industry. We have to divine whether they are switched on enough to "get it" in other ways. I'm talking about grads with good degrees from places like Imperial and UCL - it's surprising how poorly many of them perform in these situations. That's what happnes when you outsource your business costs to a 3rd party you have little control over though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Noodle Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 We're trying to hire intelligent Comp Sci/programming-oriented clever graduates and are finding that there are slim pickings (it _is_ the wrong time of year, mind). It seems the smart ones still get snapped up. Have to say the degrees are pretty useless, from what I can tell. There's only so much you can learn about a specific technology at a university that's relevant to the industry. We have to divine whether they are switched on enough to "get it" in other ways. I'm talking about grads with good degrees from places like Imperial and UCL - it's surprising how poorly many of them perform in these situations. There's two main issues with degrees. 1. Many claim to be vocational but have little relevance to particular industry sectors, 2. The course content and structure seems very difficult to change once established and certified. This was my experience of it in the mid-90's anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGP Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 it was a waste of your time and here you are defending it. You ALL got shafted. Total waste of your time. Why ........ I now earn approx. double the national average. I think Pauls on about the same. Jerry and Tom are well above national average AND in cushy jobs. So..... all of us above national average ...... all before they were 30. (That national average includes a lot of 50+ people who've worked up the ladder). None of us would have grabbed roles with re-numeration that good without the degrees we got. Certainly not in our 20's. Before I went to uni I worked for 3 years. My salary now is over triple the best paying job I had in that period, and quintuples the worst paying job I had then. It's also well ahead of my school mates who went into various trades (sole one of my group that went to uni). Looking at my prospects then...... compared to my prospects now........ there is just no comparison. I fully appreciate it isn't like this for all students, but my personal experience has been that this is the case for the vast majority. My uni-mates continue to do well, even in the recession.....my school mates are not doing nearly so well. From my perspective...... it was worth every penny. and thats WITHOUT factoring in the fun I had in those 3 years that was over and above anything I've experienced in working-life. Yours, TGP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Storm Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 No, they don't cover "dead, unused languages", they cover computation. You know, universal truths and all that. Unemployed "generalist" is one thing, unemployable idiot that only knows Java syntax is quite another. Its only a shame it isn't plausible to teach using only Turing machines. Jesus Christ. The rest of it is just you asking for burger flipping degrees which really would suit the educators. Flavour of the month and you can get people back every three years to do yet another degree! Ok so a degree in Java, C++ or Visual Basic would have been a flavour of the month? Lets look at some modules from Reading uni, and ask ourselves what are we aiming at here. A Programmer, a network engineer, a web designer, a database expert, support desk? All of the above, but not good enough to actually do any of these roles as the training is far to general. Thats the problem. Year 1 Compulsory Modules Programming Commercial Off-the-shelf Software Software Engineering 1 IT Support 1 E-Business 1 Optional Modules Computer and Internet Technologies Computer Science Roadmap Student Enterprise Year 2 Compulsory Modules Databases for Business Business Programming Software Engineering 2 & Career Management Information Systems E-business 2 Optional Modules Practice of Entreprenership IT Support 2 Final Year Compulsory Modules Individual Project Social, Legal and Ethical Aspects of Science & Engineering Optional Modules Data Management Computer Networking Network Security Informatics for E-enterprise Enterprise IT Architecture Project Management Software Quality and Testing GUI, Web and Multimedia Design Requirements Analysis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGP Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Ok so a degree in Java, C++ or Visual Basic would have been a flavour of the month? Lets look at some modules from Reading uni, and ask ourselves what are we aiming at here. A Programmer, a network engineer, a web designer, a database expert, support desk? All of the above, but not good enough to actually do any of these roles as the training is far to general. Thats the problem. Year 1 Compulsory Modules Programming Commercial Off-the-shelf Software Software Engineering 1 IT Support 1 E-Business 1 Optional Modules Computer and Internet Technologies Computer Science Roadmap Student Enterprise Year 2 Compulsory Modules Databases for Business Business Programming Software Engineering 2 & Career Management Information Systems E-business 2 Optional Modules Practice of Entreprenership IT Support 2 Final Year Compulsory Modules Individual Project Social, Legal and Ethical Aspects of Science & Engineering Optional Modules Data Management Computer Networking Network Security Informatics for E-enterprise Enterprise IT Architecture Project Management Software Quality and Testing GUI, Web and Multimedia Design Requirements Analysis No thats the SOLUTION. The job of university is NOT to knock out 300 guys who are all already streamlined into only going for jobs that are specific "java programmer" jobs. Is to give them the basis of knowledge accross the whole industry to get their foot in........ get that specific training at company expense........ and then combine that with their general computing knowlege to produce better workers/future leaders. Youi are expecting universisites to turn out (essentially) "just-finished-apprenticeship" people. Thats not their job. If you wanted that you could do a "Learn Java in 13 weeks" course then get into a company with your A-Levels/GCSE's........ or an ISEB in a specialty etc etc. The problem with that is.... then your not fit for anything else. You don't have the general knowledge to move into (say) technical QA....... or analysis....... or management....... or architecture. You're just a java drone. Whatsmore, not even a good Java drone because you barely understand how anything works outside your little ghetto of expertise. The university courses are meant to turn out people a step ahead of being a "java drone". Thats the point. Thats what justified their £15k cost over the £2k cost of the java drone course. The purpose IS to turn out a computing specialist........ who will then go in in his working life to pick up technical skills and experience neccessary to specialise in several areas (over the course of his career) within that. If they were knocking out Java Drones....... they'd be no point. Yours, TGP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Noodle Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Why ........ I now earn approx. double the national average. I think Pauls on about the same. Jerry and Tom are well above national average AND in cushy jobs. So..... all of us above national average ...... all before they were 30. (That national average includes a lot of 50+ people who've worked up the ladder). None of us would have grabbed roles with re-numeration that good without the degrees we got. Certainly not in our 20's. Before I went to uni I worked for 3 years. My salary now is over triple the best paying job I had in that period, and quintuples the worst paying job I had then. It's also well ahead of my school mates who went into various trades (sole one of my group that went to uni). Looking at my prospects then...... compared to my prospects now........ there is just no comparison. I fully appreciate it isn't like this for all students, but my personal experience has been that this is the case for the vast majority. My uni-mates continue to do well, even in the recession.....my school mates are not doing nearly so well. From my perspective...... it was worth every penny. and thats WITHOUT factoring in the fun I had in those 3 years that was over and above anything I've experienced in working-life. Yours, TGP You originally wrote Tom and Jerry didn't you? Then changed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cogs Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Ok so a degree in Java, C++ or Visual Basic would have been a flavour of the month? Lets look at some modules from Reading uni, and ask ourselves what are we aiming at here. A Programmer, a network engineer, a web designer, a database expert, support desk? All of the above, but not good enough to actually do any of these roles as the training is far to general. > Java or Visual Basic would certainly be flavour of the month and you can learn them out of a book in about week if that. What you can't learn in a week is to how think properly about computers and what they do and how to structure things in a way that will be safe and make it possible for you to work constructively with others. The whole point of coming to a deep and varied knowledge of the nature of computers is that sort of stuff is rendered trivial. Learning a programming language is easy, virtually anyone can do it and has, I see that as largely incidental. Anyone doing a substantive degree comes out having learned at least a couple of programming languages, the difference between them and someone who specialises in computers is all the other stuff that requires wider knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Noodle Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Ok so a degree in Java, C++ or Visual Basic would have been a flavour of the month? Lets look at some modules from Reading uni, and ask ourselves what are we aiming at here. A Programmer, a network engineer, a web designer, a database expert, support desk? All of the above, but not good enough to actually do any of these roles as the training is far to general. Thats the problem. Year 1 Compulsory Modules Programming Commercial Off-the-shelf Software Software Engineering 1 IT Support 1 E-Business 1 Optional Modules Computer and Internet Technologies Computer Science Roadmap Student Enterprise Year 2 Compulsory Modules Databases for Business Business Programming Software Engineering 2 & Career Management Information Systems E-business 2 Optional Modules Practice of Entreprenership IT Support 2 Final Year Compulsory Modules Individual Project Social, Legal and Ethical Aspects of Science & Engineering Optional Modules Data Management Computer Networking Network Security Informatics for E-enterprise Enterprise IT Architecture Project Management Software Quality and Testing GUI, Web and Multimedia Design Requirements Analysis Degrees from all the old Poly's really do need to be strictly vocational and relevant now. It's not fair to waste three years of someone's life and stunning amounts of their money (debt) and lost income for them to leave 'University' unskilled for the intended industry. I guess this is why Master's degrees are so popular, but with that added expense you do need to question if it's all worth it if you're borderline academic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injin Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Why ........ I now earn approx. double the national average. I think Pauls on about the same. Jerry and Tom are well above national average AND in cushy jobs. So..... all of us above national average ...... all before they were 30. (That national average includes a lot of 50+ people who've worked up the ladder). And what did it cost you? What does it continue to cost you? None of us would have grabbed roles with re-numeration that good without the degrees we got. Certainly not in our 20's. None of you would have been automatically excluded to begin with if the degree system wasn't in place. Before I went to uni I worked for 3 years. My salary now is over triple the best paying job I had in that period, and quintuples the worst paying job I had then. It's also well ahead of my school mates who went into various trades (sole one of my group that went to uni). Looking at my prospects then...... compared to my prospects now........ there is just no comparison. I fully appreciate it isn't like this for all students, but my personal experience has been that this is the case for the vast majority. My uni-mates continue to do well, even in the recession.....my school mates are not doing nearly so well. From my perspective...... it was worth every penny. and thats WITHOUT factoring in the fun I had in those 3 years that was over and above anything I've experienced in working-life. Yours, TGP It was a total waste of your time AND you are defending it, exactly as I predicted. Good job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cogs Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 There's two main issues with degrees. 1. Many claim to be vocational but have little relevance to particular industry sectors, 2. The course content and structure seems very difficult to change once established and certified. This was my experience of it in the mid-90's anyway. All I can say to that universities have to look to the professional bodies. What you can't do is expect them to try and run a "non-accredited" course (at which point you just have someone's word that it is "relevant"...). So it winds up being an issue for the profession itself and perhaps the big employers in the sector really. I know that isn't very satisfactory but thats the long and short of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Noodle Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 All I can say to that universities have to look to the professional bodies. What you can't do is expect them to try and run a "non-accredited" course (at which point you just have someone's word that it is "relevant"...). So it winds up being an issue for the profession itself and perhaps the big employers in the sector really. I know that isn't very satisfactory but thats the long and short of it. See it just means they struggle to keep up. With subjects like IT, which I guess move along rather swiftly these days, courses claiming to be vocational need to be exactly that and have the flexibility to move with the times. I was asked to review some of the courses at my University and all the suggestions made to improve the content where automatically rejected with "Do you know how difficult it is to change course content?". So why the hell did they ask me to do it in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cogs Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 See it just means they struggle to keep up. With subjects like IT, which I guess move along rather swiftly these days, courses claiming to be vocational need to be exactly that and have the flexibility to move with the times. I was asked to review some of the courses at my University and all the suggestions made to improve the content where automatically rejected with "Do you know how difficult it is to change course content?". So why the hell did they ask me to do it in the first place? If the requirements for professional registration don't change, the courses won't. If they do, they have to. Its that mind-numbingly simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Noodle Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 If the requirements for professional registration don't change, the courses won't. If they do, they have to. Its that mind-numbingly simple. Oh well. Never mind. The graduates I've employed over the past five years, in my opinion were uneducated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingsgate Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 +1. As with all other facets of their life, the English have perfected class snobbery in the university system as well. It is a system where old Quentin "Chubbs" Worsely-Tonks can spend three years getting drunk on port and throwing up overthe Oxford cobblestone, but he is still more employable than a working class kid with a first from a polytechnic. Quents is the one with the right colours on his tie and the right handshake. It was ever thus. Such a chap might get in on the basis of his old school tie etc in a few places. But while coming from a moneyed background does still help, I think the days of big companies taking on Sloaney idiot p1ss-artists have pretty much gone. I mean, think about it: you are in HR for some big firm - you can pick and choose who you employ, you've got hundreds of graduates with really good CVs. Even if you ARE a snob, you'd pick a posh kid who got a first and maybe some other stuff too, not Quentin. Wouldn't you? What's a polytechnic, anyway? They got rid of those back around the time they stopped using leeches in medicine, didn't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Storm Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 No thats the SOLUTION. The job of university is NOT to knock out 300 guys who are all already streamlined into only going for jobs that are specific "java programmer" jobs.The purpose IS to turn out a computing specialist........ who will then go in in his working life to pick up technical skills and experience neccessary to specialise in several areas (over the course of his career) within that. If they were knocking out Java Drones....... they'd be no point. Yours, TGP Ok so if we have the solution, why are we turning out graduates whos only job is a McJob, Starbucks or Tesco shelf stackers? You think its not university's job to do this. And I see graduates who are useless to business and I would not employ one. No business has a requirement for a computer generalist who has an overview of computing and yet is master of no specific skill. Some have requirements for a Java programmer, they dont want to train one. They dont want someone who has spent the last 3 years learning about the ethics of computer programming. This is why you get the "cant get experience, cus i have no experience" plight of graduates. Java or Visual Basic would certainly be flavour of the month Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europbaron Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 It's not that hard to delay a degree. I did it and so have countless others. Somewhere along the line people were sold the line that a degree - any degree - would allow them their pick of the jobs. It might have been true in 1965, but it sure ain't now! This in itself wasn't too much of a problem, when you got a grant, or at the very least, had your tuition paid for by the government. Now things are different a change of thinking is required. Young adults should be balancing the cost of a degree (in both time and debt terms) against the likely benefits, not forgetting that they could do a job for 3-4 years and then take a degree if they so choose. My point (poorly made in a rush) was that it's not easy for a 16-18 year old to make the decision to do so when all of society, including your own parents, are selling you the line that you mention. ...They should have forced their kids to study something useful for example... (my emphasis)I really believe that uni entry at age 21 or so should be favoured over age 18'ish, as by that time potential students will have some experience of the real world, of just how big a 20k debt is (even when paid back under the favourable student loans terms) and give them more idea of why they want a degree in a particular subject. Entry straight from school should only be for exceptional students who show a clear motivation for wanting to study a particular subject, rather than the standard thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUsualSuspect Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 No matter what they teach at university if in our society there are only 4 jobs for every 10 people entering the workforce.. then 6 of 10 will be unemployed. And of course it will be a race upwards in the qualification needed, along with a race down in terms of pay. The race to the bottom in pay is almost over though, they all pay near minimum wage. (although we are starting to see the 'unpaid internships', and 'voluntary work'). Most of the 'solutions' I hear work on an individual level, but not on a societal level. They are a way to increase an individual's chance of being in that 4 of 10 to get a job.. but for every one who is helped in that manner, someone else loses out somewhere else. And that my friend sums it up perfectly. A race towards the bottom, and because the 'over-qualified' UK problem refuse to do menial jobs then it excuses unfettered immigration. The Capitalists know what they're doing. Shame that no-one else can see it and just worry about buying their 'dream house' at 'rock bottom prices'. But lets not worry. We can all assume that the 'swingeing cuts' that must be made by the next government will be met with open arms when they come into play. Little 'Jo and Joanna' at the University of Crudchester deserve their place. They're worth it, they damned well earnt it.... Let the plebs get riled over peanuts, whilst the Oligarchs pick your pockets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUsualSuspect Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Ok so if we have the solution, why are we turning out graduates whos only job is a McJob, Starbucks or Tesco shelf stackers? You think its not university's job to do this. And I see graduates who are useless to business and I would not employ one. No business has a requirement for a computer generalist who has an overview of computing and yet is master of no specific skill. Some have requirements for a Java programmer, they dont want to train one. They dont want someone who has spent the last 3 years learning about the ethics of computer programming. This is why you get the "cant get experience, cus i have no experience" plight of graduates. Aside from the naivete of someone believing Visual Basic is a good skill, the idea that employees "don't want to train one" is emblematic. They have needs, but don't want to pay. It's cheaper to get an Indian chap/chapess to do it. And yet the talk is of creating a Britain that can export and thrive. It''s this short-term thinking that has got us into such a mess. Everyone taking short-term profits and dealing in speculation. Until a state controlled plan for how the country should function exists and this removal of short-term gambling is eliminated then we will, as a country, continue to decline. And for anyone thinking that state-controlled planning doesn't work, let's look at how well China is doing right now ? If we don't pull our thumb out of our collective arses, then we can have all the freedoms we like, but we'll all be sharing a turnip over a soup made of yesterday's rain-water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noodle doodle Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 not everyone can pick up programming, and good job too, or it would pay starbucks wages and what's the snobbery towards java? Perfectly good language, bit verbose, but preferable to the mishmash of two letter variables in amongst the punctuation symbols some of the others can turn into. In the end though, if you know what a loop is, know what a method is, an object is, how recursion works etc you can apply these to any language, that's the imprtant stuff they need to teach graduates even if it isn't websexy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUsualSuspect Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 (edited) not everyone can pick up programming, and good job too, or it would pay starbucks wages and what's the snobbery towards java? Perfectly good language, bit verbose, but preferable to the mishmash of two letter variables in amongst the punctuation symbols some of the others can turn into. In the end though, if you know what a loop is, know what a method is, an object is, how recursion works etc you can apply these to any language, that's the imprtant stuff they need to teach graduates even if it isn't websexy. That is an equality of outcomes. It's the very same problem that exists in many spheres and the "snobbery" that you suggest towards it shows how de-specialised so many spheres of expertise have become. I would prefer my Programmers to know what they are doing, not just claim "the mishmash of two letter variables" is something they don't understand and assume it doesn't matter. In the same way that I would like my Doctor to know what that "red thing.... kind of pumping out blood" is a heart. Edited March 12, 2010 by TheUsualSuspect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Storm Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 Aside from the naivete of someone believing Visual Basic is a good skill, lol. Well it seems that I doubled my salary when I started earning my living as a programmer. I tripled my rate and quarted my hours last year. This year I am working all out. £82k a year with my poor vb skills. I didnt read the rest of your post as you are clueless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Home_To_Roost Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 (edited) This is why you get the "cant get experience, cus i have no experience" plight of graduates. IMHO there is the World of Work and the World of Education ... completely separate from one another. The degree scam is going to disappoint MILLIONS of people. It started with the "previous administration". Universities (ex polys) accept students with NO A-LEVELS . "Society" expected young people to go off to uni and gain career prospects. In recent years Uni students have EXPECTED to get a degree. There is no negotiation ... they have to get a degree at the end of it - they "paid" for the course! That is why lots of university lectures are full of apathetic, disinterested students: they didn't go there to learn, stoopid! Genuinely interested students are a minority As many people on this thread have already pointed out ... there are TOO many graduates! Call centres have been full of graduates for half a decade ... long before the recession. We only need a fraction of the graduates we are producing ... it is madness! It makes my blood boil when some govt mouthpiece goes on TV and says: no no no!! We don't have too many graduates! We will have a highly skilled workforce! That's right, you govt dipshit! We will have Graduate Admins on £13K, Graduate Data Entry Clerks on £14K, Graduate Bricklayers on £17K, and ... best of all .. Graduate Roadsweepers!!!! :angry:. These people do NOT need degrees ... they need vocational training and experience! Universities are pumping out graduates that nobody needs .. employers are incredibly rectal about experience! Isn't it time these two groups interacted and created useful career pathways? No, that would be obvious! Do you know why it won't happen? Let my tell you why, in ERIC PEBBLE STYLE: THE EDUCONOMY! Hundreds of thousands of graduates are needed to support tens of thousands of jobs at the universities, and ALSO the suppliers of books, stationery, consumables, IT equipment, furniture, STUDENT ACCOMODATION, and real estate!!! (universities are MASSIVELY into real estate). When you add it all up, the EDUCONOMY directly supports HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of jobs, and keeps hundreds of thousands of people OFF THE UNEMPLOYMENT LIST! The situation has been building since the early 90s. It cannot go on! We need to get back to basics. Clear out half of the degrees, and replace them with VOCATIONAL courses, that give you the skills to work in a particular field. Employers don't give a shit for inexperienced grads ... so why bother? Edited March 12, 2010 by Home_To_Roost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheUsualSuspect Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 lol. Well it seems that I doubled my salary when I started earning my living as a programmer. I tripled my rate and quarted my hours last year. This year I am working all out. £82k a year with my poor vb skills. I didnt read the rest of your post as you are clueless. If someone is paying you 82K per annum when you have self-confessed poor Visual Basic skills as you suggest, then you are very lucky. Well done. You've beaten the Capitalists at their own game. I personally earn over 450 thousand a year and I have 3 degrees. Does that make me better or worse than you ? Does my economic potency make me a bigger person ? I don't understand it when people say "I didn't read the rest of your post because....*insert insult here*". Do they not realise that the assumption is that they have no answer to the meat of the post i.e. the whole point of posting ? I'm not interested in what you earn, the whole point of my post was the rest of it that you've dismissed as "clueless". Why so ? Why not actually debate that rather than thrusting assertions of your economic importance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noodle doodle Posted March 12, 2010 Share Posted March 12, 2010 That is an equality of outcomes. It's the very same problem that exists in many spheres and the "snobbery" that you suggest towards it shows how de-specialised so many spheres of expertise have become. I would prefer my Programmers to know what they are doing, not just claim "the mishmash of two letter variables" is something they don't understand and assume it doesn't matter. In the same way that I would like my Doctor to know what that "red thing.... kind of pumping out blood" is a heart. I'm saying any programming language is equal to any other if you know what programming is about. The same with human language, just way simpler. Why program in the 21st century version of setting bits with a paperclip between pins when there's a more readbale alternative? "I would prefer my Programmers to know what they are doing, not just claim "the mishmash of two letter variables" is something they don't understand" That's what documentation and commenting are for, but if you don't use two letter variables and use meaningful names you're halfway there already I earn a billion pounds a year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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