Time To Bring In National Service

[snowflux]

Well what can I say, in my experience having talked so many times to so many who actually did national service, they thought it was a good thing, and then a few people here who never did it say they are wrong!

Who said it should be unpaid? Not me for a start?

Strange. I lived in Germany for 10 years, where they still have national service, and almost all of my friends thought it was a complete waste of their time, especially those that did the military option. Nine months of thumb-twiddling (or, at best, learning to drive an HGV), when they could have been doing something constructive.

Is it really in the nation's interest to force its talented young engineers/lawyers/whatever to waste their time cleaning boots or wiping bottoms?

[Tim Miller]

If its so good make it voluntary.

We have it already, it's called joining the army, air force or navy.

The problem is we have a system that has failed, probably since the 1970's anyone cares to put another date in the equation. In my opinion this coincides with a change in the schooling system, my school certainly went to the dogs. Maybe the ending of national service which had installed so many good qualities into late teenagers. As I said before the labour and conservative governments of the time have much to answer for. A lack of forward planning on all fronts. House prices forcing mothers to go to work. the list goes on and on.

[Tim Miller]

Strange. I lived in Germany for 10 years, where they still have national service, and almost all of my friends thought it was a complete waste of their time, especially those that did the military option. Nine months of thumb-twiddling (or, at best, learning to drive an HGV), when they could have been doing something constructive.

Is it really in the nation's interest to force its talented young engineers/lawyers/whatever to waste their time cleaning boots or wiping bottoms?

Hey, every one is different, I employed two Turkish guys on my yacht for a year from 2004 to 2005, they both did national service. Once again they loved those 18 months, made good friends as well. From memory their wages were only $10 a month. They were very proud of their country and flag, hence don't think about setting fire to it at a football match!

[Tim Miller]

Hey, every one is different, I employed two Turkish guys on my yacht for a year from 2004 to 2005, they both did national service. Once again they loved those 18 months, made good friends as well. From memory their wages were only $10 a month. They were very proud of their country and flag, hence don't think about setting fire to it at a football match!

Did we have a opt out if you went to university, or we could do.

[Guest The Relaxation Suite]

Did we have a opt out if you went to university, or we could do.

I know someone who did NS in Finland and he was ambivalent about its value. If the goal is to stop the degrading of our civil society I would suggest punishing the criminals rather than conscripting all our young people would be of more use.

[Guest The Relaxation Suite]

I knew it would happen one day.

I agree with an OP on here.

I'm all for national service. 100%.

I bet most of the ethnics would leave the country rather than serve it.

A fantastically racist statement. Do you mean like all the "ethnics" that signed up, fought and died for the British Empire? The reality of course is that a percentage of whites would be lazy to do it, and roundabout exactly the same percentage of ethnic minorities would also be too lazy to do it. I for one am pretty glad the Sikhs and Gurkhas were on our side - we've treated them so badly they probably wouldn't bother next time round though.

[Authoritarian]

I'm all for national service.

Especially now that I'm too old to do it.

(Al Murray joke).

[Ruffneck]

wheres the money going to come from

otherwise it's a good idea

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

Hardly. I'm not proposing working kids and stray adults into the ground, but merely teaching them about society and in order to improve our community. A 35 hour week should suffice.

A level of respect is missing from all school leavers, whether working class, middle class or public school. All kids and those that rely on the state need to understand better community values.

This would improve our country by a long way. many would pick up valuable skills that lead to gainfull employment in the productive private sector.

But it would only be achieved through duress

So it would be slavery

[Guest The Relaxation Suite]

But it would only be achieved through duress

So it would be slavery

Look, it's not necessarily "slavery". The reason we're not eating each other is because we have a social contract between us and the state. As part of that contract we all have an obligation to exist within certain mutually agreed boundaries. You seem to be leaning towards the views of those nutcases in Idaho who live in the mountains stockpiling generators and walk round with dixie bandanas and AK47s.

We have a "state", we have a social contract, and scrotes should be made to clear their graffiti up. If the state gets monstrous and starts abusing the citizens, as is happening now, the answer is to reduce the size of the state, not drive up to Idaho and start polishing our berettas and talking about the NWO with our tin foil hats on.

[Lone_Twin]

Look, it's not necessarily "slavery". The reason we're not eating each other is because we have a social contract between us and the state. As part of that contract we all have an obligation to exist within certain mutually agreed boundaries. You seem to be leaning towards the views of those nutcases in Idaho who live in the mountains stockpiling generators and walk round with dixie bandanas and AK47s.

We have a "state", we have a social contract, and scrotes should be made to clear their graffiti up. If the state gets monstrous and starts abusing the citizens, as is happening now, the answer is to reduce the size of the state, not drive up to Idaho and start polishing our berettas and talking about the NWO with our tin foil hats on.

A preposterous statement.

If you want to march my kids away at gun point you are going to have to do better than that.

[Guest AuntJess]

Hardly. I'm not proposing working kids and stray adults into the ground, but merely teaching them about society and in order to improve our community. A 35 hour week should suffice.

A level of respect is missing from all school leavers, whether working class, middle class or public school. All kids and those that rely on the state need to understand better community values.

This would improve our country by a long way. many would pick up valuable skills that lead to gainfull employment in the productive private sector.

Once upon a time that was called schooling which - sadly - many of these specimens truanted from. The 6th form where I worked many moons ago, ran classes for the lower-level academic achievers, where they learned basic skills - caring and clerical - and had placements at local establishments: one such was an old folk's hospital.

Don't know as I'd be happy to have some of today's yoof let loose around vulnerable folks.

The level of respect missing needs to be instilled at a MUCH earlier level than teens. By the time they are teenagers the ' mould has set'.

The lack of discipline coming from hapless parenting - mainly those having children for some sort of gain, not love of family - and the reduction of teacher authority by the PC, namby-pamby, wet-nellies, now in charge of the country, not to mention overcrowding of classes, and weakening of schooling procedure - foisted on teachers who now have to be multi-cultural AND multi-lingual, have all taken their toll.

[SaintJay]

National Service run in the UK would be a hilarious disaster, especially if it were run by New Labour.

True. It shoud however, provide some excellent material for a sitcom.

[Guest P-Diddly]

In Germany they have a social conscription as well as all that jumping over walls stuff.

One friend of mine did the military bit and it really screwed him up, another did the social option, worked in a microbiology lab for 15 months . . . said it was great and should not change.

Getting the 'yoof' motivated and feeling involved and included is what counts.

[Guest The Relaxation Suite]

A preposterous statement.

If you want to march my kids away at gun point you are going to have to do better than that.

It's not preposterous in the least.

1. You require the state to keep you safe, because even if you're a blackbelt Karate champion, there are far nastier people than you around, and all that is between them and your family and house is the state.

2. No one has a stronger civil liberties ethic than I do, so I won't be marching anyone away with "guns".

In edit - did you even read my post - I said we need to reduce the size of the state!

Edited September 28, 2009 by D-503

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

Look, it's not necessarily "slavery". The reason we're not eating each other is because we have a social contract between us and the state. As part of that contract we all have an obligation to exist within certain mutually agreed boundaries. You seem to be leaning towards the views of those nutcases in Idaho who live in the mountains stockpiling generators and walk round with dixie bandanas and AK47s.

We have a "state", we have a social contract, and scrotes should be made to clear their graffiti up. If the state gets monstrous and starts abusing the citizens, as is happening now, the answer is to reduce the size of the state, not drive up to Idaho and start polishing our berettas and talking about the NWO with our tin foil hats on.

You are forced into contract with the state via the fiction legal entity known as the Birth Registration Certificate. You don't have any choice in the matter. Your parents registered your birth and you are entered into contract with the state without ever having given your consent.

So?

What happens if your governmnet or the state starts getting increasingly authortarian, starts making demands on you that are unreasonable, starts spying on you, starts poisoning your food and water, brainwashes you and lies to you, taxes you into oblivion? And it could get much worse. They can kidnap your child if you don't raise it in accordance with their wishes for example. You are 'legal guardian' of your children. You don't own them. You have equitable title only, the right of use. Your children are chattel property of the state and their secured interest against our paper money currency system. It is their future slave labout that makes our monetary system possible. The state can kidnap your children at their whim and you will have no defense against them.

what do you do now?

As for those 'nutcases' in America with dixie bandanas and AK47s. God bless them I say. At least they can pitch a defense against overbearing governmnet. That's why the right to bear arms is enshrined in the US Constitution, dummy. Not so people can shoot up wildlife in the forests for the hell of it.

If the British people were armed, NuLabour ouldn't have dared pass most of their authortarian legislation

[Horridbloke]

i watched the first 25 minutes of 'Escape From Los Angeles'. Its about how Los Angeles is a huge prison and some dude has to rescue someone. its crap, but the idea is good. Thats where all criminal, bankers, estate agents and politicians should go. National service should be for the righteous, worthy of having something to be proud about. Its a sequal to 'Escape From New York'

I'm looking forward to "Escape From Weymouth".

[Lone_Twin]

In Germany they have a social conscription as well as all that jumping over walls stuff.

One friend of mine did the military bit and it really screwed him up, another did the social option, worked in a microbiology lab for 15 months . . . said it was great and should not change.

Getting the 'yoof' motivated and feeling involved and included is what counts.

I spent a large portion of my youth in the air cadets, although my views about the role of the armed forces have changed since then I still feel very grateful for the experiences and opportunities I had age 13-18. And I wish similar opportunities were afforded to young people without a military element.

BUT... it was entirely voluntary and it taught you more becuase of that. Just because something (similar) was good or even beneficial dosnt mean you have the right to force it on people.

[Lone_Twin]

It's not preposterous in the least.

1. You require the state to keep you safe, because even if you're a blackbelt Karate champion, there are far nastier people than you around, and all that is between them and your family and house is the state.

2. No one has a stronger civil liberties ethic than I do, so I won't be marching anyone away with "guns".

In edit - did you even read my post - I said we need to reduce the size of the state!

1) I don't doubt violent unpleasent people exist. You said: "The reason we're not eating each other is because we have a social contract between us and the state." Now even if we accept that was foolish hyperbole your proposition is that without the state the majority of people would behave terribly. I just don't beleive that is the case. A real social contract if such a thing could exist would be between the people in society, you owe no allegiance to "the state".

2) Ok so what will you do when I resist you?

Dosn't matter if you just want 5 guys called "the state" if you are going to give them the means to force people to do your bidding its still stupid.

BTW.... Your street has had a high incidence of litering, 'nuicence behaviour' and leaving the bins out a day too long. You must now come round my house and do my washing up for a year.

I its nt ok for me to command your wife to come round my house and give me handjobs its not ok for you command my kids to go and wipe old ladies bums.

[Guest P-Diddly]

1) I don't doubt violent unpleasent people exist. You said: "The reason we're not eating each other is because we have a social contract between us and the state." Now even if we accept that was foolish hyperbole your proposition is that without the state the majority of people would behave terribly. I just don't beleive that is the case. A real social contract if such a thing could exist would be between the people in society, you owe no allegiance to "the state".

2) Ok so what will you do when I resist you?

Dosn't matter if you just want 5 guys called "the state" if you are going to give them the means to force people to do your bidding its still stupid.

BTW.... Your street has had a high incidence of litering, 'nuicence behaviour' and leaving the bins out a day too long. You must now come round my house and do my washing up for a year.

I its nt ok for me to command your wife to come round my house and give me handjobs its not ok for you command my kids to go and wipe old ladies bums.

It's perfectly okay by me, I'll put her in the post!

[Guest The Relaxation Suite]

1) I don't doubt violent unpleasent people exist. You said: "The reason we're not eating each other is because we have a social contract between us and the state." Now even if we accept that was foolish hyperbole your proposition is that without the state the majority of people would behave terribly. I just don't beleive that is the case. A real social contract if such a thing could exist would be between the people in society, you owe no allegiance to "the state".

No one is saying anything about allegiance. I'm talking about survival through cooperation. Yes, I do believe the majority of people would behave terribly, and it would get worse the longer it went on. We know this by looking at the behaviour of states in the international system where there is no central authority. This is how humans behave when there is no agreed framework for behaviour. It's basic psychology, er - one had apple spoils the whole damn bunch, etc.

2) Ok so what will you do when I resist you?

Dosn't matter if you just want 5 guys called "the state" if you are going to give them the means to force people to do your bidding its still stupid.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, Super Ted.

BTW.... Your street has had a high incidence of litering, 'nuicence behaviour' and leaving the bins out a day too long. You must now come round my house and do my washing up for a year.

I its nt ok for me to command your wife to come round my house and give me handjobs its not ok for you command my kids to go and wipe old ladies bums.

You were saying something about foolish hyperbole?

Edited September 28, 2009 by D-503

[Guest The Relaxation Suite]

UK Debt Slave

You are forced into contract with the state via the fiction legal entity known as the Birth Registration Certificate. You don't have any choice in the matter. Your parents registered your birth and you are entered into contract with the state without ever having given your consent.

You are not forced into anything. You can move to America if you want to, or buy an island in the South Pacific and paint nude abstracts all day if you wish.

What happens if your governmnet or the state starts getting increasingly authortarian, what do you do now?

You reform the government or leave the country until it is reformed.

As for those 'nutcases' in America with dixie bandanas and AK47s. God bless them I say. At least they can pitch a defense against overbearing governmnet. That's why the right to bear arms is enshrined in the US Constitution, dummy. Not so people can shoot up wildlife in the forests for the hell of it. If the British people were armed, NuLabour ouldn't have dared pass most of their authortarian legislation

The part of the Constitution you refer to was written when the government had no more weaponry than the people, and so then it was a realistic measure to ensure safety against tyrannical government. Today they most certainly cannot "pitch a defence" against the US government and the amendment remains to keep aforementioned nutcases quiet up in the hills and not pitching tents outside 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

Your final statement is ridiculous for no other reason than the US has just as many civil liberties violations as the UK and as you have pointed out - their citizenry is armed (for now). Also, my doctorate concerns the US Constitution, so perhaps calling me a "dummy" on the subject is not the best foot for you to get off on.

Edited September 28, 2009 by D-503

[porca misèria]

Getting the 'yoof' motivated and feeling involved and included is what counts.

Oh dear. I've been saying that on the education thread[1], only to get told by a teacher it would be illegal. Can't interest them, hafta stick to national curriculum. I guess by implication the two must be mutually exclusive.

[1] started as something else, I forget what.

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

You are not forced into anything. You can move to America if you want to, or buy an island in the South Pacific and paint nude abstracts all day if you wish.

If you refuse to register a birth, the state will send social services around to kidnap your child

You reform the government or leave the country until it is reformed.

That's what I'm doing. I'm not very optimistic that there will be any reform for the better however, particularly now that the UK is part of the Franco-German EU Soviet

The part of the Constitution you refer to was written when the government had no more weaponry than the people, and so then it was a realistic measure to ensure safety against tyrannical government. Today they most certainly cannot "pitch a defence" against the US government and the amendment remains to keep aforementioned nutcases quiet up in the hills and not pitching tents outside 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

We'll see about that, especially since alot of people in the US military are patriots who still believe in the Constitution

Your final statement is ridiculous for no other reason than the US has just as many civil liberties violations as the UK and as you have pointed out - their citizenry is armed (for now). Also, my doctorate concerns the US Constitution, so perhaps calling me a "dummy" on the subject is not the best foot for you to get off on.

Am I supposed to be impressed that you are reading for a Doctorate?

I'm not I'm afraid. Most 'professors' I've met live in cloud cuckoo land. They are academically institutionalised and in many cases they are 'told' what to believe rather than forming their own opinions. This is endemic in the UK.

The most obvious example of this are 'professors' of economics who have been educated in western universities to believe Keynesian economics is the only way to run economies. Total fantasy land I'm afraid.

No doubt your doctorate on the US Constitution will be a great work of fiction too.

[tracey]

National Service for ALL 17-19 year olds.

Also for anyone who hasn't worked or tried to work - i.e. the benefit contingent who aren't genuinely off.

Also 18months compulsary for all criminals once they leave jail.

Whilst I would hate to see government get any larger than it all ready is, this could be a good plan for the rebuilding that our country needs. It could also pay for itself by reducing the state as I propose the payment for the service be at the same level as current dole.

Proposed work areas -

Care of the elderly

Maintenance of all government buildings

Repairing Infrastructure

Building new Infrastructure

etc etc

I wouldn't want a criminal looking after my granny!