Guardian: Greece "can't Cope" With Illegal Immigration Flood

[moneyfornothing]

we need them to rent and buy our houses and keep house prices generally high

[bogbrush]

I'm afraid this is going to get much worse. Really, britain was in a position to be uniquely resistant to this form of invasion but we lost the will many years ago.

No need to panic just yet but really I don't see this country recognisable in any way - financially, culturally, politically - in 10 years time. Time to plan to get out I feel certain.

[Grime- skint wouldbe ftb]

I'm afraid this is going to get much worse. Really, britain was in a position to be uniquely resistant to this form of invasion but we lost the will many years ago.

No need to panic just yet but really I don't see this country recognisable in any way - financially, culturally, politically - in 10 years time. Time to plan to get out I feel certain.

The ultimate white flight then? What an end to the English race and their homeland! We used to fight tooth and claw to protect our country - now we are expected to hand it over without a shot being fired!

[bogbrush]

The ultimate white flight then? What an end to the English race and their homeland! We used to fight tooth and claw to protect our country - now we are expected to hand it over without a shot being fired!

What "fight" there was, was given up long ago. Personally it's not a racial thing for me but a cultural one. For example, the Ugandan Asians were a 100% asset to the country, but what's happening now is catastrophic.

It's a wise man who knows when to cut his losses.

[sammysnake]

and so the drum beats to the tune of Iranian destruction doesn't it.

It's our policies that cause migrations. But Soon our weak little currency will be worthless so I wouldn't worry too much

[kingsgate]

Greece struggles to cope as immigration tensions soar

The Guardian

Greek authorities are desperately trying to cope with a surge of migrants on to the country's islands which has left detention centres overflowing.

Last week, amid chaotic scenes, hundreds of migrants demonstrated against "inhuman conditions" in a detention camp on Mytilene, the capital of Lesbos, in a protest that saw hunger-striking minors setting fire to mattresses and attacking guards. The clashes highlighted the rising anger on island outposts that are being overwhelmed by a double influx of holidaymakers and illegal migrants.

According to senior immigration officials, Greece has now become the frontline of migration to the EU. "Greece is Fortress Europe's weakest link," said one EU official, who added that for traffickers bent on ferrying human cargo to the west, its borders were like a "big open door".

Last week in northern France, police used bulldozers to clear immigrants from the Calais camp known as the "jungle". But the problem there is dwarfed by the unfolding drama in the Greek islands.

Mytilene, off the coast of Turkey, and other tourist magnets can receive up to 500 "illegals" a day, according to authorities, and have become the favoured entry points into Europe for thousands from Afghanistan and Iraq.

"They're coming in by the boatload from Turkey at all hours of the night and day," said Nikoloas Zacharis, vice-prefect of Samos, another Aegean island. "It's uncontrollable."

Last week's "uprising," the latest in a series of revolts by immigrants, has provoked a huge row over Greece's treatment of "guests" it does not want.

"That children as young as 12 were on hunger strike in Greek detention is a gross indictment of the government's failure to care for them," said Simone Troller at Human Rights Watch.

Greece is not the only southern European country to be targeted by people smugglers. Spain, Italy and Malta have also been hit by an influx of immigrants but Greece and its islands are seen as Europe's easiest "backdoor" entrance. Last year an estimated 150,000 migrants, mostly from Asia but also from Africa, illegally entered Greece, police say.

Forced to cope with the country's porous land borders and 18,400 kilometres of unwieldy coastline, immigration officials are overstretched.

Tensions have been exacerbated by the extraordinary risks immigrants appear willing to take to cross the border. Those from war-torn Iraq and Afghanistan have frequently put their lives in danger to make the journey either in rickety rafts or on foot across minefields that still line Greece's northern land frontier with Turkey.

In recent years, an alarming number of pregnant women and parentless children have been among those crossing treacherous mountain passes and rough seas, according to human rights groups. Last year, as many as 3,000 minors – some of them as young as six and mostly from Afghanistan – were dumped by smugglers on remote Aegean isles.

In an attempt to staunch the human tide, Greek coastguard patrols have been equipped with high-speed boats and infrared tracking devices. France and Spain have dispatched helicopters to the area to help.

Acutely aware of the rising social tensions the influx has caused, the centre-right government, which faces an election on 4 October, has stepped up arrests with successive police sweeps in Athens' where rising crime has, increasingly, been blamed on migrants.

The arrests followed the announcement of draconian legislation in July, which included dramatically extending the amount of time undocumented migrants can be detained. And, despite widespread protests from Greeks and migrants groups over the prospect of "migrant concentration camps" being created, the conservatives have also floated the idea of detaining "illegals" in disused military facilities.

"The situation has reached crisis proportions, partly because detention centres are now so overcrowded," said Nikos Koplas, a lawyer who has long assisted refugees seeking asylum. "Locking them up is not the way forward. The answer lies with the EU. It's as if Greece is becoming a depot for illegal entries from all of Asia. It needs to share the burden."

In northern Europe capitals, where most illegal migrants head, the surge in arrivals has also caused growing consternation. Of 278 Afghan minors arrested last week in Calais, most entered Europe through Greece. Improved policing of the western Mediterranean, particularly the Canary Islands and southern Italy, has played a role.

"The main effect of more efficient patrols in the western Mediterranean is that we now have more people coming through the eastern Mediterranean," said Martin Baldwin-Edwards who runs the Mediterranean Migration Observatory at Athens' Panteion University.

"But most of the migrants are intent on moving on. When they see that conditions are not what they like or expect, they start heading deeper into Europe. Many prefer the UK because there's a whole mythology about it. They've heard from family and friends who are already there that it is a better democracy, with better conditions, plentiful jobs and fairer treatment of migrants."

Greece's notorious asylum process has the lowest acceptance rate in Europe. Of the 20,000 applicants last year, asylum was accorded to only 379.

Immigrants invariably complain that, with a backlog of more than 30,000 cases, they have no choice but to seek asylum elsewhere in Europe. As in France, authorities in Greece have tried to solve the problem by bulldozing makeshift camps, including one in the port city of Patras that, like the "jungle", was inhabited mostly by unaccompanied minors from Afghanistan.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Pretty soon we'll have to start shooting...

We will have to start shooting them soon. We cannot be expected to absorb thousands and thousands more wasters from the worlds sh1tholes.

Just sink the boats they are on before they even land. Saves all the arguments over "processing" them and whether they are "genuine" asylum seekers or not. Who cares, frankly? We don't need them and we don't want them.

[Executive Sadman]

Daily Mail hysteria, somehow wormed its way into the Grauniad.

[godless]

more things not to hit the news....

Sept 2 - The Athens bourse is struck by a bomb causing

extensive damage, but it opens for trading at the usual time. A

week later the militant guerilla group, the Revolutionary

Struggle, claims responsibility.

-- A home-made bomb explodes outside a government building

in the northern city of Thessaloniki, causing minor damage. The

Fire Conspiracy Cells group later claims responsibility.

Sept 23 - A device explodes on the fourth floor of a

building in the Kolonaki area of Athens outside the home of a

senior member of Greece's opposition socialist party. There are

no injuries.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews...N54842220090923

[TwoWolves]

I really don´t understand the smug comments that these sorts of posts engender. If you think what is happening in the world right now is not going to affect you or your children/family extremely gravely sometime in the near future you are deluded.

The populations of the developing world is spiraling out of control and the planet will soon not be able to support it. Its worth mentioning that the most populous are also the regions with the highest economic growth rates, where we invested in living standard they have invested in fertility.

[deus ex machina]

You can't defeat the economic imperative and prohibition imposing limits on peoples' needs because of political drivers simply does not work - America's fruitless campaign against alcohol in the 1920s and the current war against drug trafficking testifies to that. Certainly, the futility of the USA's attempts to stem Hispanic migration must serve as a lesson to all that even the most powerful country in the world with all of its resources cannot prevent that most basic of human urges, the need to sustain a future.

Borders are essentially artificial boundaries demarcating self interest dressed up as nationalism and as such are only effective in deluding those who choose to believe that their laws are not just for keeping honest men out. For in truth we cannot prevent illegal migration unless we forsake liberal democracy and descend into the abyss of tribal territoriality so championed by the Nazis.

We shall just have to accept the fait accompli and manage the phenomenon as best we can. Ditching the welfare state might be a good start and the silly belief that we are entitled to everything we can't have.

The onslaught from the East is nothing compared to what will come out of Africa.

I shall be alright because quite soon I willl be basking upon a Thai beach in splendid retirement funded by those nice British taxpayers ably supported by those equally nice but ever so slightly harder working new immigrants.

[SarahBell]

What we need are huge 'FULL' signs at every port and airport.

No we need "we treat illegal immigrants really badly, there are no jobs and our democracy is a joke"

[Realistbear]

You can't defeat the economic imperative and prohibition imposing limits on peoples' needs because of political drivers simply does not work - America's fruitless campaign against alcohol in the 1920s and the current war against drug trafficking testifies to that. Certainly, the futility of the USA's attempts to stem Hispanic migration must serve as a lesson to all that even the most powerful country in the world with all of its resources cannot prevent that most basic of human urges, the need to sustain a future.

Borders are essentially artificial boundaries demarcating self interest dressed up as nationalism and as such are only effective in deluding those who choose to believe that their laws are not just for keeping honest men out. For in truth we cannot prevent illegal migration unless we forsake liberal democracy and descend into the abyss of tribal territoriality so championed by the Nazis.

We shall just have to accept the fait accompli and manage the phenomenon as best we can. Ditching the welfare state might be a good start and the silly belief that we are entitled to everything we can't have.

The onslaught from the East is nothing compared to what will come out of Africa.

I shall be alright because quite soon I willl be basking upon a Thai beach in splendid retirement funded by those nice British taxpayers ably supported by those equally nice but ever so slightly harder working new immigrants.

Grim determination to prevent an invasion of foreign hordes has paid off in the past. The best example is the incident in Greece when some lads from the south of that country turned back a huge number of would-be settlers into "Europa" and ended up chnaging the course of history. What Britain needs is a similar backbone and grim determination to protect our nation from the flood that awaits entry.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Realistbear

[deus ex machina]

Presumably ' realistbear ' is an ironic statement?

Either that or you are as stupid as the neocon Americans who thought you can destroy an idea with an M16.

Grim determination, indeed! Invoking the bulldog spirit is as futile as it is fatuous but I suppose you are the sort of idiot who thinks Churchill was truly a great man.

[cells]

I really don´t understand the smug comments that these sorts of posts engender. If you think what is happening in the world right now is not going to affect you or your children/family extremely gravely sometime in the near future you are deluded.

The populations of the developing world is spiraling out of control and the planet will soon not be able to support it. Its worth mentioning that the most populous are also the regions with the highest economic growth rates, where we invested in living standard they have invested in fertility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count..._fertility_rate

Propaganda.

The EU averaged birth-rate is about 1.5 children per woman which means a quickly decreasing population!

Worldwide fertility rate is falling and falling fast. It is now about 2.55 and we need about 2.1 for a flat world population.

The UK rate is 1.8 which means the population is shrinking. At 1.8 births per woman it would mean the UK population falls by 10% every 30 years or so. So in the year 2100 the uk population would fall 27% to about 44 million assuming no immigration.

Germany the biggest country in Europe regarding population has a birth rate of 1.41 children per woman!!! Yes you read that correctly!! It means the population of Germany will shrink by 30% every generation!!! So come 2100 Germany could have a population of 28 million down from 82 million !!!!

China the biggest country in the world has a birth-rate of 1.7 children per woman (their 1 child policy only applies to about 30% of the population which is why the birth-rate is above 1), so that countries population will shrink. If that birth-rate continues for 300 years china will lose roughly 1 billion people to become a nation of about 400 million people. More likely the birth-rate will fall even more so that china loses its population faster.

India has a birth rate of 2.7 children per woman, down from 3.1 children per woman in the year 2000 and will likely be below the replacement rate to 2 children come 2020.

[Coolfonz]

The only solutions are anarchism and communism.

If Europe and the US hadn't spent 50 years looting the developing world of resources, funded and supported juntas and killers and persecuted any coutry who wasn't subservient to the interests of the European and US states, then we wouldn't have mass people movements.

You right wing maniacs have had your day. All you can offer is war and killing.

Look what you did in the 1930s.

Post-fascist Europe is dying. And you lot are too.

[cells]

Grim determination to prevent an invasion of foreign hordes has paid off in the past. The best example is the incident in Greece when some lads from the south of that country turned back a huge number of would-be settlers into "Europa" and ended up chnaging the course of history. What Britain needs is a similar backbone and grim determination to protect our nation from the flood that awaits entry.

Do you think for a moment if we didn’t need immigrants we would let them in?

The power behind the faces you see on TV allows immigrants because they know it is vital for Europe to stay a major power in the world.

The European union has an ageing population and a birth-rate of 1.5 children per woman. That is a problem, who is going to take care of the retired if 50% of the population are retired? Maybe more importantly what happens when china is 3x richer than the whole of Europe, when India is 2x richer than the whole of Europe, when the middle east is richer than Europe? Europe will lose its influence if its population relative to other nations drops.

In the past Europe had free trade and wealth for economic prosperity and power around the world. Today most nations are embracing free capitalism and becoming rich. Thus population will be more directly linked to power and influence.

And why the venom to foreigners legal or illegal? All they are trying to do is leave poverty and have a decent life. Every human wants that and would try to achieve that.

[Realistbear]

Presumably ' realistbear ' is an ironic statement?

Either that or you are as stupid as the neocon Americans who thought you can destroy an idea with an M16.

Grim determination, indeed! Invoking the bulldog spirit is as futile as it is fatuous but I suppose you are the sort of idiot who thinks Churchill was truly a great man.

I am a Neolib--in the 18th Century sense of that word.

Many ideas have been destoyed with weapons. Absolute monarchy was one of them. National socialism another. Taxation wihtout reprresentation for example. As a great man once said:

"The pen may be mightier than the sword but history shows that good ideas are often quenched by weapons in the hands of the determined."

There was a choice of "great men" back in WW2 depending on your idea of "greatness." According to a recent poll Churchill is 3rd among the greatest PMs.

Grim determination is more action that a "spirit" of one kind or another. The gentlemen that put the spirit into action in Greece to prevent mass migration were probably more neo-con than their norhterly neighbours as broad based nationalism was high on their agenda. However, their sense of urgency was based on their own self-preservation as much as it was to protect Democracy and a western life style.

[Perfectionist]

Hurrah !! Another lovely thread detailing the terrifying worries of Ugly, Unsuccessful, Sex-Starved Losers !!

As a person who suffers from none of the above, please permit me to not give a shit about Immigration !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSZdb2buU_c

[Realistbear]

Do you think for a moment if we didn’t need immigrants we would let them in?

The power behind the faces you see on TV allows immigrants because they know it is vital for Europe to stay a major power in the world.

The European union has an ageing population and a birth-rate of 1.5 children per woman. That is a problem, who is going to take care of the retired if 50% of the population are retired? Maybe more importantly what happens when china is 3x richer than the whole of Europe, when India is 2x richer than the whole of Europe, when the middle east is richer than Europe? Europe will lose its influence if its population relative to other nations drops.

In the past Europe had free trade and wealth for economic prosperity and power around the world. Today most nations are embracing free capitalism and becoming rich. Thus population will be more directly linked to power and influence.

And why the venom to foreigners legal or illegal? All they are trying to do is leave poverty and have a decent life. Every human wants that and would try to achieve that.

It is not so much about "immigration" as that is too broad--the question is thus who it is that we fear allowing in. I am going out to a nice Italian restaurant this evening and the last time I was there I took a measure of delight in seeing the large number of immigrants working there. Polite, service-oreinted and a fine addition to the gene pool of this country. On the other hand there are more sinister types of migrants with a religious zeal I cannot identify with that I would prefer to remain in their own countries--if given a choice that is.

Anyone ever worry or complain about the number of "white" Rhodesians and South Africans that we have let in over the past few decades? Aussies? Kiwis? No, thought not.

[cells]

It is not so much about "immigration" as that is too broad--the question is thus who it is that we fear allowing in. I am going out to a nice Italian restaurant this evening and the last time I was there I took a measure of delight in seeing the large number of immigrants working there. Polite, service-oreinted and a fine addition to the gene pool of this country. On the other hand there are more sinister types of migrants with a religious zeal I cannot identify with that I would prefer to remain in their own countries--if given a choice that is.

Anyone ever worry or complain about the number of "white" Rhodesians and South Africans that we have let in over the past few decades? Aussies? Kiwis? No, thought not.

Yes but the European union needs about 3-4 million immigrants from outside the EU ever year to have a stable non shrinking population.

Germany has a birth-rate of about 1.4 kids per woman. That means per generation Germany would shrink by 30%. So 82million Germany would be less than 60m Germany within 30 years and abour 40m Germany within 60 years. Do you know what sorts of problems that would cause?

Who exactly are you going to invite to meet that number?

Australians? The country would be empty in 7 years.

The only realistic place you can look for immigrants of your description today is Russia. But she too would stop giving you immigrants within 5 years as you steal 20m of her citizens.

Who then realist bear? Where you gona find the 3-4 million immigrants per year?

The only alternative is to increase the internal birth-rate.

It can be done, but it isn’t easy to do.

[Realistbear]

Yes but the European union needs about 3-4 million immigrants from outside the EU ever year to have a stable non shrinking population.

Germany has a birth-rate of about 1.4 kids per woman. That means per generation Germany would shrink by 30%. So 82million Germany would be less than 60m Germany within 30 years and abour 40m Germany within 60 years. Do you know what sorts of problems that would cause?

Who exactly are you going to invite to meet that number?

Australians? The country would be empty in 7 years.

The only realistic place you can look for immigrants of your description today is Russia. But she too would stop giving you immigrants within 5 years as you steal 20m of her citizens.

Who then realist bear? Where you gona find the 3-4 million immigrants per year?

The only alternative is to increase the internal birth-rate.

It can be done, but it isn’t easy to do.

A population downsize would probably not be a bad thing.

Why has the birthrate decreased? Stress and our slavery to materialism. Kids are seen as a tie or restriction on our freedom.

This article sums much of it up:

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_an...icle6844325.ece

[Authoritarian]

Do you think for a moment if we didn’t need immigrants we would let them in?

The power behind the faces you see on TV allows immigrants because they know it is vital for Europe to stay a major power in the world.

The European union has an ageing population and a birth-rate of 1.5 children per woman. That is a problem, who is going to take care of the retired if 50% of the population are retired? Maybe more importantly what happens when china is 3x richer than the whole of Europe, when India is 2x richer than the whole of Europe, when the middle east is richer than Europe? Europe will lose its influence if its population relative to other nations drops.

In the past Europe had free trade and wealth for economic prosperity and power around the world. Today most nations are embracing free capitalism and becoming rich. Thus population will be more directly linked to power and influence.

And why the venom to foreigners legal or illegal? All they are trying to do is leave poverty and have a decent life. Every human wants that and would try to achieve that.

We don't need immigrants to bolster productivity and save us from ourselves, as a nation we're more than capable of paying our way and looking after the elderly if we used the resources that we do have more efficiently.

How many people in this country are unemployed? Work in gov't non jobs? Are in higher education unnecesarily? Are professional landlords and speculators? This list of the unproductive is endless, and they all do their little bit to take away from the productive to make it that little bit harder to start a 'normal' life with a house, and financial stability (the opportunities that our parents enjoyed) and ultimately start a family. Student loans alone must be putting back reproduction by a good few years as it either eats into income or forces graduates to put off having a family whilst they work all the hours and cram themselves into shoeboxes to scrap enough money together to pay back the loan.

Under these circumstance no wonder the indiginous population doesn't want to reproduce, don't get me started on the housing market's toll either.

Intoducing different cultures into the mix is a recipe for disaster IMO as they end up becoming the scapegoats for all the nations woes.

[Coolfonz]

"On the other hand there are more sinister types of migrants with a religious zeal I cannot identify with..."

Yeah these christians are all over the place. cant they piss off back to holland/rome?

[Realistbear]

Need more kids? Worried about the 1.5 birth rate? Or who is going to work when the current workers retire?

How about reducing the numbers culled before birth?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2...15875-21379069/

Fall in the number of abortionsBy Emily Cook 22/05/2009

The number of abortions performed in England and Wales has fallen for the first time in three years, figures revealed yesterday.

Terminations fell 1.6 per cent in 2008 to 195,296 - 4.5 per cent among teenagers.

Every little helps.............................

I suspect the birth rate will be picking up very soon but I am not sure it will be the result we want.

[SMAC67]

At least Lady Scotland has some new potential house-keepers to interview now!