talksalot81 Posted January 29, 2009 Share Posted January 29, 2009 Interesting - I am uncertain about comments about the contracts being shown not to be enforceable last time. That may well have been the case but what on earth sort of idiot legal representative would make the same mistake again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busgrw Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Hi, I've just found an interesting article published by the University of Ulster which is worth a read - click here It's a Quarterly House Price Index and although it is only showing Q3 2008 as the latest version (the next should be out soon) it seems to indicate that although housing overall in NI has been badly hit, apartments, especially apartments in Belfast, were somewhat bucking the trend and actually reporting an increase in prices compared to Q3 2007 prices. Fair enough prices are down about 5.2& in the last qtr but is this not good news for all those who have bought an apartment in the Titanic Quarter? What are your thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busgrw Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 You should maybe read this:-http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Apartment...g39-.4583596.jp Hmmm. Q4 will be an interesting read then. Thanks for the info Lagansider. T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subby Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 http://www.phpbb88.com/tq if anyone with an interest in the project wants to discuss it in private Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titanicdev Posted February 7, 2009 Author Share Posted February 7, 2009 There is a new thread on the other forum with the info you are looking for. Can you please post a link to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDavola Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Does anyone have a list of the planned/in construction apartment blocks in Belfast city centre, along with number of units for each and estimated completion date? Would be interesting to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSNomadic Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Does anyone have a list of the planned/in construction apartment blocks in Belfast city centre, along with number of units for each and estimated completion date?Would be interesting to see. Has anybody noticed that the final blocks in the Arc seem to be moving an awful lot slower than the first few cores. Does anybody have any idea or whether the development is running on time? It seems to me that they are trying to get the first few cores finished and they have stalled on the other cores? From looking at the progress on the final few cores, they will be doing very well to have them complete by Oct/Nov Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talksalot81 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Has anybody noticed that the final blocks in the Arc seem to be moving an awful lot slower than the first few cores. Does anybody have any idea or whether the development is running on time? It seems to me that they are trying to get the first few cores finished and they have stalled on the other cores? From looking at the progress on the final few cores, they will be doing very well to have them complete by Oct/Nov One of the posters on the main forum thread supposed that the developers should stop entirely whilst I argued the oppposite. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle and it would make some sense. They make sure to get the initial lot done and then find out where the market really is and where they are going to get as far as people completing. If they get completions to the necessary level, they now have the whole workforce finish the others - of not then they go bust and have wasted as little money in getting there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSNomadic Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 One of the posters on the main forum thread supposed that the developers should stop entirely whilst I argued the oppposite. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle and it would make some sense. They make sure to get the initial lot done and then find out where the market really is and where they are going to get as far as people completing. If they get completions to the necessary level, they now have the whole workforce finish the others - of not then they go bust and have wasted as little money in getting there... Hmm, given their commitment to the TQ i doubt the developer wants to go bust or indeed pull out from the area. I do agree though that it would seem they are trying to get the first lot completed to see what they are actually going to get for them, ie how many people can actually complete on them . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talksalot81 Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Hmm, given their commitment to the TQ i doubt the developer wants to go bust or indeed pull out from the area. Well of course not but the numbers may make the reality otherwise. A quick calculation showed that even the new valuations were only 20% down on the contracted, that would mean a loss of hundreds of millions of pounds for the developers. Do you envisage the developer first being able to deal with that and second continuing having done so (envisaging that more was possible...)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSNomadic Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 Well of course not but the numbers may make the reality otherwise. A quick calculation showed that even the new valuations were only 20% down on the contracted, that would mean a loss of hundreds of millions of pounds for the developers. Do you envisage the developer first being able to deal with that and second continuing having done so (envisaging that more was possible...)? I'm not sure of those calculations. I imagine finance has been secured initially for the first phase development I.e the first 350 apartments. If we take an average of 250k then a drop of 20% is around 20m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getdoon_weebobby Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 and a drop of 50% is around 50m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSNomadic Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 and a drop of 50% is around 50m Well calculated..... A hit of £50m might not be that bad if it secured completions and allowed the area to continue as planned. Given their significant interest in the first phases succeeding it be a viable option. finance for this was secured a long time ago and from memory when the development was first mooted the prices were expected to be considerably lower than what they ended up at. I would imagine they have factored this in. Id love to know what sort of price it costs per sq ft for developers to build apartments etc. obviously spec dependent etc, but as a general guide? would we be talking £50 a sq feet/£100? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talksalot81 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 (edited) I'm not sure of those calculations. I imagine finance has been secured initially for the first phase development I.e the first 350 apartments. If we take an average of 250k then a drop of 20% is around 20m But over all the titanic site suggests over 7500 properties. 7500 at 50k drop is £375 million.... and that is considering only the cheapest properties and nothing in the way of commercial. This would be a drop of approaching 10% of the initial budget (not profit!!). Edited February 8, 2009 by talksalot81 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeDavola Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 You would like to think they they could continue to build even though the flats will not sell for as much - lets face it a two bed flat should not cost £250K per unit to build. I suppose it depends how long ago they bought the land (and hence how much they paid for it). I think the demand is actually there for apartments like this, but the price will have to be right, and by that I mean a level that people working in Belfast can actually afford to pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemesis Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I do agree though that it would seem they are trying to get the first lot completed to see what they are actually going to get for them, ie how many people can actually complete on them . I can't see any reason why the developer would want to stop building the TQ apartments - after all they have binding contracts with those who agreed to buy them. My suspicion is that they, like apartment developers elsewhere, intend to complete their end of the bargain and enforce the contracts at the price agreed on signing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSNomadic Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I can't see any reason why the developer would want to stop building the TQ apartments - after all they have binding contracts with those who agreed to buy them. My suspicion is that they, like apartment developers elsewhere, intend to complete their end of the bargain and enforce the contracts at the price agreed on signing. Can you name one such development where this has happened I.e forced completion? An awful lot of people have been trying to work out if this will happen, perhaps you have the answer for everyone! Its not quite as simple as build apartments, sue people to complete. As opposed to people not wanting to complete the reality is now that people cannot complete at the agreed prices. With increased deposits on the lending side meaning another 10-20% will be needed and potential shortfalls of around another 20% plus the reality is probably 90% of purchasers will bot be able to raise or have these funds? So you propose the developer sues for the craic? This thread has been a useful forum for people to discuss issues etc, I thought we had gotten away from the simplistic view of your screwed and going to be sued on about page 2 of the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulidia Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 While I am very aware the ROI is another legal system this thread on the Pin appears to say that the Commercial court in Dublin is enforcing contracts.http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.ph...29&start=60 I don't know if the developer of TQ has a legal entity in ROI to be able to sue from there if it was more favourable. The developer, Harcourt Developments, does have a RoI legal entity. However, I would be very surprised if the contracts for the TQ apartments do not contain a clause stating that they are subject to the law of Northern Ireland i.e. in such circumstances, Harcourt Developments would be unable to sue defaulting TQ buyers in RoI. That said, contract law in both NI & RoI is primarily based on the same common law principles so it is unlikely that the approach of a court in NI to the issue would be significantly different to that of a court in RoI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemesis Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Can you name one such development where this has happened I.e forced completion? An awful lot of people have been trying to work out if this will happen, perhaps you have the answer for everyone! Its not quite as simple as build apartments, sue people to complete. As opposed to people not wanting to complete the reality is now that people cannot complete at the agreed prices. With increased deposits on the lending side meaning another 10-20% will be needed and potential shortfalls of around another 20% plus the reality is probably 90% of purchasers will bot be able to raise or have these funds? So you propose the developer sues for the craic? This thread has been a useful forum for people to discuss issues etc, I thought we had gotten away from the simplistic view of your screwed and going to be sued on about page 2 of the thread. You seem a bit touchy - a condition which has no doubt clouded you interpretation of my post. If you re-read it carefully you'll see that I was simply speculating on a possible reason as to why the developer of any block of apartments might want to finish them. Having substantial loans with mounting interest he probably isn't in a position to mothball the project - his best bet is to complete and sell them on to those who legally agreed to buy them. No doubt he would argue that he wouldn't have started to build in the first place if he didn't have buyers on board - and, of course, by building he is fulfilling his end of contract. Your suggestion, that buyers "cannot complete at the agreed price" because they cannot get a loan, assumes that they are first time buyers with no other assets. I would suspect that many (perhaps most?) of the prospective buyers were speculative investors, no doubt owning other property including their home. If necessary this could be the source of funding for their new purchase. "Off-plan" buying is a relatively new phenomena, spawned by over a decade of rising house prices, it isn't unexpected that examples of "forced completion" are difficult to find - although doccyboy notes above an example from ROI. What isn't new, however, is contract law and the opportunity for legal redress to compensate one party if the other fails to fulfil their end of the bargain. I do have the answer for everyone - it'll be up to the wronged party (the developers) what legal course they want to pursue. I don't think they'll sue for the "craic" - probably they will have no other choice if they want to get their own creditors off their back. This thread has been a useful forum for people to discuss issues etc, I thought we had gotten away from the simplistic view of your screwed and going to be sued on about page 2 of the thread. You must enlighten me as to the other "issues" usefully discussed on this thread. It seems to me that predominate theme was one of buyers (who, no doubt, dreamed of making a killing in the Belfast property market) trying to pay less for property than they had contractually promised. You only fool yourself if you think that getting away from the "simplistic view .... on about page 2" marks some sort of progress. The truth of the matter was described there and will have to be faced eventually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talksalot81 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 You would like to think they they could continue to build even though the flats will not sell for as much - lets face it a two bed flat should not cost £250K per unit to build. I suppose it depends how long ago they bought the land (and hence how much they paid for it).I think the demand is actually there for apartments like this, but the price will have to be right, and by that I mean a level that people working in Belfast can actually afford to pay. Yes but this is not so simple. They will not just build it, get the money in their pocket, see how much profit is there and move on. They will undoubtedly have been balancing the books in relation to the income that they are expecting. If the income drops far enough you may find that they have insufficient to make good on plans they have. This is even more the case if they have made investment beyond the TQ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachman Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 The developer, Harcourt Developments, does have a RoI legal entity. However, I would be very surprised if the contracts for the TQ apartments do not contain a clause stating that they are subject to the law of Northern Ireland i.e. in such circumstances, Harcourt Developments would be unable to sue defaulting TQ buyers in RoI. That said, contract law in both NI & RoI is primarily based on the same common law principles so it is unlikely that the approach of a court in NI to the issue would be significantly different to that of a court in RoI. IF it's under NI law, and it's a ROI entity, it's a question of jurisdiction - if they decide there is no forum in the ROI, the usual path would be to sue in NI and get judgement. Thereafter, there would be a request for the enforcement of the judgement under various treaties. Would they do it - it's expensive and it's slow. But at some point they will get round to estimating the cost/likely reward of doing so.And even if they do get judgement, where's the real money - most of the properly structured schemes run offshore through Panama, Cayman or Bermuda - and that's where the money is - no point in suing a man of straw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getdoon_weebobby Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 i cant see anything other than the developer playing hardball and wanting the full amount on phase 1. then he will reassess things before releasing more / deciding to build more etc. at the end of the day you guys have a legally binding contract (unless you can find any holes in the contract) that if watertight will be enforceable in law........... whats the saying.....win some lose some Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSNomadic Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 i cant see anything other than the developer playing hardball and wanting the full amount on phase 1. then he will reassess things before releasing more / deciding to build more etc.at the end of the day you guys have a legally binding contract (unless you can find any holes in the contract) that if watertight will be enforceable in law........... whats the saying.....win some lose some I think its complicated. if the developer adpts a hard ass approach and sues people, possibly forcing bankruptcy etc upon people, will this be good for the TQ development going forward? i.e will people want to buy apartments from them? NI has a funny way of supporting its people. I personally think it makes more sense to work with people rather than against them and recognise that severse economic conditions are upon us and rahter than people not wanting to complete, they now no longer can without some support/help from the developer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSNomadic Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 To be honest there are 531 posts in this thread and you are no further forward than when it started. You have collected some anonymous posters who are in the same position as yourself. Has anyone tried speaking to the developer yet? Its all conjecture until they get flats finished and try to get you to complete on the contract. This thread is heading into a dead end. If you dont consider it useful then dont read the posts and dont post yourself. Its very simple. And how do you know people are no further on? I think the forum has served as an excellent platform for people to discuss ideas/feelings both on this and through other means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nemesis Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 I think its complicated. if the developer adpts a hard ass approach and sues people, possibly forcing bankruptcy etc upon people, will this be good for the TQ development going forward? i.e will people want to buy apartments from them? NI has a funny way of supporting its people. I personally think it makes more sense to work with people rather than against them and recognise that severse economic conditions are upon us and rahter than people not wanting to complete, they now no longer can without some support/help from the developer. I think you are a bit optimistic. With the prospect of house price falls for several more years, the drying up of credit and the disappearance of the investor - TQ "going forward" doesn't seem to have much of a future. What earthly reason would the developer have for starting to build the unsold phases of the project now! You continue to suggest that the buyers want to complete but can't. I doubt that this is true in most cases. Who, given the choice, would want to complete now! It's probably not even correct to say that they can't complete. I have my suspicions that most of the potential purchasers were investors - they might not be able to get a mortgage but they could always sell their current home and move in! Of course that was never their intention was it? Like many off-plan speculators they hoped to "flip" it for a profit as quick as possible. "NI has a funny way of supporting its people." Don't be daft! There are people would buy a house from the devil if they thought they could turn a quick buck! When you move into TQ you'll be living beside some of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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