Economics Gets Personal -

[Errol]

There's been a few on the London to Norwich line, although I've not kept track.

Nice!!

Perhaps suicide tracking is a bit like train spotting?

[SaintJay]

Interesting...has there been research done on this possible link at all?

hmm.... post-suicide questionaire. Probably all the records are held by St Peter at his pearly gate...

[The Ayatollah Buggeri]

I was once waiting for a train at Northallerton station (market town in the foothills of the North York Moors, about 30 miles north of York) when someone suddenly ran out of the waiting room and jumped in front of an express train passing through the station. I truly hope I never have to see anything even close to what was on the track after the train had passed. There was no-one else on the platform and the station was unstaffed, and so I called 999 on my mobile. The police took around 15 minutes to arrive, during which time a couple walked onto the platform and I managed to stop them and turn them back before they saw the body. I really don't envy the police and ambulance staff who had to remove it from the track, and if there's one thing I'm sure of it's that if I ever contemplate topping myself it certainly won't be that way.

The policeman who took a statement from me told me that Northallerton station is notorious for suicides (there are two or three a month), because trains pass right alongside the platform at well over 100mph. They've been trying to persuade Network Rail to staff the station for longer hours in an attempt to deter jumpers, but they're not willing to foot the bill.

[Uberbear-Wan]

Mr Rose,

From your 9.12 post it is obvious you know very little about the pathophysiology of paracetamol overdose.

Correct me if I'm wrong, otherwise please stop spreading ill-informed rubbish about things you don't understand.

Many thanks.

[Errol]

I truly hope I never have to see anything even close to what was on the track after the train had passed.

Out of curiosity, what did it look like? Were there any limbs left?

[Shao Kahn]

hmm.... post-suicide questionaire. Probably all the records are held by St Peter at his pearly gate...

I meant psychological theories...and, if you are going to be believing in St. Peter, then I thought that if you killed yourself it was a sin and so you would not be doing up, but down...the records would be burning in the fires down there I presume!

[CviewUK]

And West Sussex.

Worthing man Raymond Kihumuro, 28, identified as victim

5:18pm Wednesday 11th February 2009

The grieving family of a man killed by a train have spoken of their deep upset at his death.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/search/4118943.F...railway_tracks/

[Methinkshe]

And West Sussex.

http://www.theargus.co.uk/search/4118943.F...railway_tracks/

There's nothing that says this suicide was related to the present financial crisis - although it wouldn't take too much of a stretch of the imagination to draw that conclusion.

Brings it home for me, though; Worthing was where I spent my formative childhood years.

[gf3]

I guess they are trying to express their selfs

[SaintJay]

I meant psychological theories...and, if you are going to be believing in St. Peter, then I thought that if you killed yourself it was a sin and so you would not be doing up, but down...the records would be burning in the fires down there I presume!

I always thought you go up the big escalator to heaven and then its a bit like a nightclub with an arsey doorman - your name's not down, you're not coming in - and then the ground / cloud gives way and the flames appear and the demons carry you off.

Again, not much documentary evidence available.

[lorna1999]

There's nothing that says this suicide was related to the present financial crisis - although it wouldn't take too much of a stretch of the imagination to draw that conclusion.

Brings it home for me, though; Worthing was where I spent my formative childhood years.

I expect someone IS researching data on reason for suicide, using Inquest verdicts.

As for just declaring bankrupcy - it isn't that simple, is it? Having to tell your partner you've 'failed'. Knowing your children with go without. Knowing your neighbours will be talking about you. Feeling a failure in front of your friends.

It may be relatively easy to clean up the economic mess, but much harder to recover from the emotional fall-out. Not every one is resillient, just as not everyone can be empathetic...

[Shao Kahn]

As for just declaring bankrupcy - it isn't that simple, is it? Having to tell your partner you've 'failed'. Knowing your children with go without. Knowing your neighbours will be talking about you. Feeling a failure in front of your friends.

It may be relatively easy to clean up the economic mess, but much harder to recover from the emotional fall-out. Not every one is resillient, just as not everyone can be empathetic...

Going bankrupt isnt illegal, it is perfectly legitimate, and shouldn't be seen as a sign of failure in the context of today's economic fallout, where the banks have been bailed out to the tune of hundreds of billions - the entire system and country is technically insolvent. And your children are far more likely to go without if you are struggling under a mound of debt, with all the associated emotional trauma, at least if you go bankrupt then you can start again and not have the years of debt hell carrying on. Who gives a monkeys what others think - you would be better off without them if they get so wound up about it. Not everyone is as resilient as I am these days, I agree, but as I said earlier, having been to those dark places myself, nothing is worth killing yourself over, let alone the giant ponzi scheme that is money and finance in this country at present...

[lorna1999]

Going bankrupt isnt illegal, it is perfectly legitimate, and shouldn't be seen as a sign of failure in the context of today's economic fallout, where the banks have been bailed out to the tune of hundreds of billions - the entire system and country is technically insolvent. And your children are far more likely to go without if you are struggling under a mound of debt, with all the associated emotional trauma, at least if you go bankrupt then you can start again and not have the years of debt hell carrying on. Who gives a monkeys what others think - you would be better off without them if they get so wound up about it. Not everyone is as resilient as I am these days, I agree, but as I said earlier, having been to those dark places myself, nothing is worth killing yourself over, let alone the giant ponzi scheme that is money and finance in this country at present...

I agree with you. But then I have never been clinically depressed.

I will reiterate - for many people who commit suicide, it is the most logical thing they can do. They do not see there is another choice to make.

[Live Peasant]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2009/02/13/8385591-ap.html

LONDON - A retired British army major killed himself after losing his life savings in the alleged fraud perpetrated by U.S. financier Bernard Madoff, his son said Friday.

Willard Foxton told The Associated Press that, at first, he felt so angry after his father William Foxton's death he wanted to attend Madoff's possible trial in the United States to fling the veteran's medals in his face. Now he just wants Madoff to know what happened to his father.

"I'm sure Mr. Madoff thinks it was just a con got out of hand. He thinks it's all about money - I'm sure that's what he feels," Foxton said in a telephone interview. "I want him to see that people have died as a result of what he's done."

Police in the English town of Southampton say William Foxton, 65, died from a single gunshot to head Tuesday and that a pistol was recovered at the scene.

[Shao Kahn]

I agree with you. But then I have never been clinically depressed.

I will reiterate - for many people who commit suicide, it is the most logical thing they can do. They do not see there is another choice to make.

Fair enough, but it is most illogical thing to do in the braoder scheme of things. It is a pity that these kinds of problems that lead to this happening are not picked up earlier, or that people are not aware of the fuller picture or options available. But, there is nothing I can do about that except to make my voice heard on the issue when I can...

[Uberbear-Wan]

Mr Rose,

You are an idiot.

Get a pack out of the cupboard and read the quantity in each tablet.

To others, do the same and decide for yourself if someone unable to accurately confirm the standard dose of the most commonly used over-the-counter preparation is a sensible person to listen to with respect to it's therapeutic window and toxicity.

[Uberbear-Wan]

Rose,

No, absolutely incorrect.

The standard paracetamol formulation in this country is 500mg. There is legislation about its sale but it was that only 16 tablets could be sold at any one time. This is 8g or 8 x 1000mg tablets in your old money.

The authorities consider this to be a safe allotment to sell over-the-counter to people (i.e. to people who may not have their thinking cap quite on) and will have factored in some margin of error. So your whimsical account of a half-remembered story from 20 years ago about what your doctor may or may not have said to you about 8g being an inevitably fatal dose is a bit silly.

Given that you admit that you are not even sure about the dose sold in the UK I am not particularly impressed that you can google the fatal adult dose, and I am fairly confident that you have not first clue about the pharmacodynamics and pharmacokinetics of this drug that you would need to understand to be able to relate oral dosage with fatal blood levels.

My point is quite simply that you are talking out of your ar*e about something you have very little knowledge about, and because botched paracetamol overdosage is a misfortune I wouldn't wish on my most mortal enemy I have taken exception to your potentially dangerous witterings about it.

The point is, any overdose can have tragically unintended consequences for the unfortunate concerned but this is particularly true of paracetamol. There is enough folklore about the subject without you compounding the problem.

[Uberbear-Wan]

You are such a f*ckwit.

8000mg is 8g.

I haven't made any reference to any imperial measure.

The website that you link to explains that severe effects (not fatal) "have been seen" with as little as 20 tablets (a 10g dose). This means that an 8g dose is not likely to be fatal even for the most susceptible individuals.

You tell people how to tie a noose if you think that's a worthy use of your time. If its anything like your advice about drug overdoses it'll be a slipknot.

[Uberbear-Wan]

There isn't a "correct dose" to overdose on. A sub-fatal dose might still result in a lengthy hospital stay being treated for acute liver failure which, I assure you, isn't pleasant. A fatal dose might mean the same... followed by death. And something of a lottery as to which group you end up in depending on a wide range of factors beyond the grasp of someone whose rudimentary understanding has been gleaned from a conversation that took place 20 years ago and google.

[billfunk]

There isn't a "correct dose" to overdose on. A sub-fatal dose might still result in a lengthy hospital stay being treated for acute liver failure which, I assure you, isn't pleasant. A fatal dose might mean the same... followed by death. And something of a lottery as to which group you end up in depending on a wide range of factors beyond the grasp of someone whose rudimentary understanding has been gleaned from a conversation that took place 20 years ago and google.

That said, I hope Goodwin chooses to try and top himself using paracetamol. It sounds terrible.

[Pessimist]

The crisis has been building for months, quite often it is one small thing that makes a person feel it is impossible to carry on. People who kill themselves are mentally ill, by definition, and while it is shite for those that have to live with what they have done, and those that are witness/involved in their suicide, the fact that that individual feels they have no other recourse except death makes me feel pity for them and anger at how f*cked our society is. 'Character defects' eh? There but for the grace of god I reckon, mentall illness is meant to hit something like one in ten and isn't something that you can intellectually argue away. Must be nice to see the world in such clear black and white.

Very sympathetic post. I think suicide can be a rational response to a situation you find yourself in, such as incurable degenerative illness and I would urge everyone to consider supporting Dignity in Dying - a charity set up to change the law on suicide and assisted suicide in certain specific cases.

I think that nearly everyone suffers from mental illness at some time in their lives - certainly not a black and white issue, more shades of grey. We all suffer from physical illnesses, even if it's just the odd cold, but there's still a huge stigma about mental illness, that means when it hits us, we are not well prepared to cope. It is wrong to blame the victims of severe mental illness for their actions.

[Pessimist]

Dont you find it hypercritical that we euthanaise our pets and other animals yet dont do it for our fellow human beings even when its clear they have no real quality of life by average peoples standard, plus we also abort disabled featuses.

It's hypocritical yes, that we claim to hold life so sacred that we prevent suicide and assisted suicide, yet allow preventable diseases to rip through poor countries, death through malnutrition and starvation throughout the third world and developing world. We take the resources from these countries without a thought, forcing them into perpetual debt, forcing them to grow cash crops instead of feeding themselves. Or we invade countries like Iraq, cause civil wars, back friendly dictators while it suits us, all without the slightest smidgeon of guilt or realisation of hypocrisy.

When I visited Ghana I was struck by how cheap life is there, and how their minds have been poisoned by Christianity and Islam. We live in a very sick world. Now the irrational economic system we have created threatens to create the same sort of widespread poverty and suffering in the developed countries.

I visited New Jersey a few years ago and was amazed at how the parks were full of homeless people in the World's richest country, yet any kind of attempt to make a fairer society there is regarded as evil and communism.

I fear old age, being told by my Gran that it is hell to grow old, having read about the abuse of elderly people in homes, and knowing that medicine in the west puts the preservation of life above the wellbeing of the patient. Why can't we be allowed to chose the time and place of our own departure from this world?

Edited February 27, 2009 by Pessimist

[GregG]

Ah yes the only real sin left for the post-modernist; hypocrisy.

You can choose the time and place. Suicide is not illegal anymore. While you are still lucid take some pills or jump in front of a train.

What you cannot do is have another person assist you to die, as this is difficult to distinguish from them killing you without your full consent. It is not like the police can ask you afterwards to check you were of sound mind and body because by then you are usually dead. Involving other people in your suicide makes it difficult. Wills can be forged.

How would the law know that someone wanted to die and their relatives were helping them, rather than pushing them to kill themselves because they thought House Prices were going to crash and wanted to sell up before the credit crunch? A lot of old foggies might be bullied into topping themselves so their relatives could inherit their wealth in the right tax year.

But don't worry, just like abortion was legalised in 1968 do to the sexual revolution, I suspect euthanansia will be too because there are going to be too many old people sponging off the state in the medium term. Then you can all kill each other at your local beauty spot and leave those that choose to leave their departure time to God to live in a nice big cheap house due to the laws of supply and demand. I'll be glad to see you go if that is what you want.

That said if the TFH'ers are right you might be struggling to cling onto life over the next few years.

Edited February 27, 2009 by GregG

[deeplyblue]

Why do you think they choose to throw themselves in front of trains a peak time - something that requires time and forethought, rather than just overdosing on paracetamol or some other? Selfish to the end.

Sometimes it is impulse - if you catch a train regularly maybe you think about it quite a lot, and then one day you just do it.

But there are two other reasons why people choose that sort of method:

1) It's irrevocable. Once you have actually jumped you can't change your mind and ring for an ambulance. Similarly there is a very small margin for other people to intervene. Even if you choose to jump off a bridge, someone can try to hold on to you as you climb over the railings, but if you go close to the edge when a train is coming in to a station, who's to know you aren't just trying to position yourself to be first through the doors? For some suicides it is important that the act is clearly final. In the US, of course, you just get a gun, but for many in the UK "just shoot yourself" is not easy - jump in front of a train and that's very likely to be IT.

2) It's simple. You want to try to kill yourself with an overdose of paracetamol? Do you know what the fatal dose is? (Don't post if you do - it would probably violate forum guidelines!) Do you know the best way to take it? Do you know how long it takes to work? Do you know what happens if someone finds you before you're dead? The notion that you "just take an overdose" is a real over-simplification, and someone who is really serious about suicide might know that it takes a lot more care and research and luck (good or bad, according to theological preference) to die from an overdose than from giving into an impulse on platform 13.

Whatever you're going through, whether it's big or small, don't bottle it up. Contact the Samaritans

08457 90 90 90 or click on the link for their website

db

[GregG]

Do you know what the fatal dose is?

I am absolutely sure that a Google search would tell you.

The best and most painless way is to breath thin air and drift to sleep and die of hypoxia.

I think people jump in front of trains because they want to make a statement.

Personally if I was going to top myself I'd buy a gun from a south London gangbanger and shoot Gordon Brown and Mandy in the face pointblank when they were on some walkabout. At least that would make for an interesting evening on this forum

Edited February 27, 2009 by GregG