Morocco - My Next Target

[Jesus of nazareth]

Dogbox has left the building, I repeat Dogbox has left the building. Here is his starter on this thread.

As some of u know I recently bought in Berlin.

My next target is Morocco, here's why:

* No income Tax on the rent (double Taxation agreement applies so no UK Tax will apply) - note I am only looking at high quality property within a low rise, low density mega resort (classy though) with 3 18 hole golf courses, hospital, equestrian centre, polo pitch, water parks, gucci and other leading retailers on sight, 800 berth marina, and my property has a 60 year mooring berth (very rare) all fully managed including the rent side, forested green area, full security, restaurants, cinemas, Olympic pools, bowling alley, shopping centre - all very tastefuly done in Moroccon style by UK and Spanish builders - so renting will be easy).

*Capital Gains Taxed above £60k @ 20% in first 5 years. Between 5 - 10 years its 10%. After 10 years its 0.

*The King has announced 'plan Azur', which aims to have Morocco become a premier destination by 2010.

*Huge developments - Dubai style are underway backed by none other than Emaar Properties

*An 8km tunnel will link Gibralter to Tangiers by 2008

*The 'stars' are moving in. The Beckhams, Jude Law and Brad Pitt have recently bought - this is important, it sets the trends.

*An 'open skies' agreement has been signed and the Government guarantee world class airport upgrades by 2010.

*Ryan Air have announced flights to beginn by this summer

*White sand, huge beaches so much more attractive than the black sand Canary Islands and over 1 hour clser.

*'Exotic, yet close'

*Huge infrastructure improvements underway. The Americans are investing billions in new ports.

*Its just a hop from Spain BUT PRICES UP TO 10 X LOWER

*Im buying off - plan yet only part with 40%. The balance in 2009, yet I can sell on at any point. So my 40% leveredges me into 100% exposure to the market

Once the public begin holidaying here 'en mass' the stampede will begin. IT WILL HAPPEN, JUST LIKE MEXICO HAS (and Mexico is much farther away).

Spain is yesterdays news and Morocco is almost as close.

I think Im about to sign up for a villa - www.lejardindefleur.com (more MEW Im afraid). Within the most prestigious development - Saidia. £180k right on an 18 hole Golf course (3 to choose), marina and u get 60 year mooring rights for £10k!!!!!!!

Olympic pools, gated community, cinema, polo, equestrian centre, on the beach(6 km white sand), backed by snow capped mountains, forested area, plentiful water from mountains, on site Swiss rental company.

Villa has own pool. Fully serviced. Free membership to the club house. £180K!!!!! Totally safe gated development, all low rise, hospital on site.

Gucci and many others already purchased the shops surrounding the Marina - I wonder why?

The same at La Manga in Spain would be £1m +.

Rent for £4000 per week or more once site becomes well known. £60 per month maintenance charge includes pool maintenance and gardener. I think it will rent all year given the Golf and huge variety of quality facilities and year round climate. But even if it only rents for say 35 weeks and even if I only get say £1500 per week (which wont happen), the yield is still exceptionally high.

The bit I really like is only having to part with 40% for 3 years. Ok no yield on the 40% so I loose say £3600 pa interest, but I genuinely expect the value to more than double over 3 years. I look at property all over the world and have found nothing of this quality for the price this close to home. Places such as Bulgaria are way less important given the short season and lack of feel good sun factor.

Villas come fully furnished right down to tea spoons.

[Griptool]

Whoops sorry about that.

What has happened to Dogbox? I would have expected him to have something to say about Radisson taking over RT7 & La Plage?

Dogbollox has been repo'd -

The bailiffs broke down the door , seeing a box on the lounge floor mark DOG they opened slowly, only to find...................

[image Removed By Moderator]

[fws]

You saddos!

[Jesus of nazareth]

You saddos!

Why is that fws?

Is it because I am repeating dogbox's over enthusiastic ramblings? or do you think I am just a twatttt. I hope it's the latter because I'm right about dogbox.

Listen, the Saidia resort will be nice, but so will a lot of the other Moroccan resorts.

Edited June 22, 2008 by Jesus of nazareth

[fws]

Why is that fws?

Is it because I am repeating dogbox's over enthusiastic ramblings? or do you think I am just a twatttt. I hope it's the latter because I'm right about dogbox.

Listen, the Saidia resort will be nice, but so will a lot of the other Moroccan resorts.

Definitely the latter - except I would never use foul language like that!

[kitkat]

Esmerelda, sounds like you did all the right things (such as research, hard work and taking control) and have every chance of making a success of it over the intended timeline. Well done. That's the sort of thing I used to do in the UK when I had the time and when the rental numbers actually made sense. Just as an example, I would always put dummy adverts in Loot and see if the phone rang at the right rental price before I'd even exchanged contracts. In doing so, I made my last UK residential purchase about 7 years ago because it no longer made sense to buy. Going back to Morocco, most of us can't put the time in to renovate our own overseas properties and most of us dont do our research as well as you.

I also agree completely that Morocco does not equal Saidia (or any other resort) and would add another comment to that - I work in the pricing of "risk" and if you are talking about property development to insurers the last word they will want to hear is "resort". Your experience when compared with the difficulties being experienced at Saidia is a good example of why that is.

As in other countries it can be a bit of a nightmare rennovating and doing up your property and having it ready to rent out. However Morocco is politically stable and the King is very powerful there. He is committed to social and economic reforms which in time will open up the country to the wider world. The only downside is how long will this take and will they be effective to attract more investment.

http://www.hiday.net/news.html?newsid=251

[esmerelda]

As in other countries it can be a bit of a nightmare rennovating and doing up your property and having it ready to rent out. However Morocco is politically stable and the King is very powerful there. He is committed to social and economic reforms which in time will open up the country to the wider world. The only downside is how long will this take and will they be effective to attract more investment.

http://www.hiday.net/news.html?newsid=251

I think I failed to make my point.

RENOVATION

We had a GREAT experience on the renovation project. This was down to a wonderful crew, detailed project plan & regular scheduled visits to check progress. In fact, we liked it so much.....we are going to do it again (but I need a bit of time off this year to consolidate). No nightmares at all!

RENTAL MARKET

Morocco already has an established market...French have been there years! Spanish tend to come over for long weekends & the main holidays. PLus expat Moroccans gohome to in huge numbers each year.

Whther they would appreciate someof the newer off plan offerings is sunject to debate.

[Jesus of nazareth]

Definitely the latter - except I would never use foul language like that!

Thank you fws for your prompt reply.

Saidia is not a bad long term investment, but there are better off plan investments in Morocco.

[Griptool]

Apologies for those who have read this before but I feel I yet again have to state that the moroccan dream is not all about Saida!!

I fell for the moroccan dream in 2006 ...only backed off offplan as I wasn't convinced by the developer (this was Tanjah Beach not Saida). However loved the area (Asilah). We bought a medina house on the grounds that there were going to be so many planned developments on the atlantic coast - all apparently 5 star, golf, de luxe blah blah...with the medina we felt there was a limited supply of units (only 500 houses within the walls) and we had the opportunity to have a really original house.

We renovated it last year & are now renting this year. We were advised earlier this year that due to the renovation (which cost 15% of the purchase price) & the increase in the euro/pound exchange rate, that the value had doubled. (granted we won;t know that for sure until we decide to sell, which we don;t plan on doing anytime soon, but it's nice to know there is a cushion in these uncertain times). We are not expecting 15-20% increases in the future as prices appear to have stabilised in the area for the moment..though I understand Marrakesh is still on the rise. Again we always viewed this as a 10yr investment minimum.

We are renting this year & the return is currently coming in at 7.4% (against the purchase cost + renovation costs)although the season seems limited to July & Aug with long weekends in April/May & Xmas....which we had always thought would be the case. Our customer base is Spanish for the long weekends & a mix of Spanish & French in JUly/Aug.

Many off plan developments that were promoted in 2006 have experienced difficulties getting planning permissions through - understandable given the infancy of the market. However other posters have stated that the moroccan tourist market is far from dependent on the english/irish market & that is correct - however whether the french will be attracted to the types of development being promoted is up for debate.

We prefer the degree of control & faster returns that a renovation project can bring when targetted at an established market rather than the uncertainty of off plan & I am very thankful that we didn;t get seduced into offplan and then flipping which would be tad scary now. However, t remains to be seen whether our moroccan venture will be "the best investment we have ever made"- but so far it has certainly been a very enjoyable one even though it has been bloody hard work!!

There...guts spilt to your satisfaction I hope!

Thanks for the response esmarelda (are you the ugly one or the pretty one in the story I can't remember).

From your account it would appear you've spent your money wisely - Purchasing in an established settlement with historic attractions in an area in which you enjoyed spending time is a sensible use of surplus capital.

My grippe is with those that promote the leveraged speculation on offplan developments in a market bloated by loose money - some less enlightened visitors might fall for the delusive ramblings of the snake oil salesmen that have fueled this thread.

Anyway, want to do a holiday home swap? A July week on the north coast of Brittany for an October week in Morocco

[esmerelda]

Thanks for the response esmarelda (are you the ugly one or the pretty one in the story I can't remember).

From your account it would appear you've spent your money wisely - Purchasing in an established settlement with historic attractions in an area in which you enjoyed spending time is a sensible use of surplus capital.

My grippe is with those that promote the leveraged speculation on offplan developments in a market bloated by loose money - some less enlightened visitors might fall for the delusive ramblings of the snake oil salesmen that have fueled this thread.

Anyway, want to do a holiday home swap? A July week on the north coast of Brittany for an October week in Morocco

Ha...the pretty one...natch!!! & thanks for the kind words...

Mmm.... "snakeoil salesman" ...that is JUST what it was like when we went over to Morocco end of 2006...and you know all those Costa Cowboys? Well guess where a lot of them were selling??

Re the home swap...I would love to do that but my husband loathes France!! (Don't ask!!)

[TaxFree]

Martinsa-Fadesa (formerly Fadesa) board has just called in the administrators, unable to meet their debt payments. I have not found links in English with the breaking news.

AFAIK they are the main contractor in Med Saidia and are directly in charge of building part of the development. What now for Med Saidia?

[The Soup Dragon]

None of us have a crystal ball to say what will happen, but if Fadesa did become bankrupt then it is likely its assets will be sold on. I imagine it would make sense for Adoha to purchase Fadesa’s remaining stake in Saidia (if they have means to do so and price is right.) But that’s a lot of ifs, we’ll need to see how things pan out.

[Einstein71]

None of us have a crystal ball to say what will happen, but if Fadesa did become bankrupt then it is likely its assets will be sold on. I imagine it would make sense for Adoha to purchase Fadesa’s remaining stake in Saidia (if they have means to do so and price is right.) But that’s a lot of ifs, we’ll need to see how things pan out.

LOL - Disaster as Saidia dream turns to nightmare.

Who would have believed it.....erm....well everybody apart from those who invested. Dogbox is in Morocco now, he owns 6 of these babies, he expected to flip them to unexpecting people on this forum but now bankruptcy looms.

For me the danger lights flashed as soon as I started reading the constant sales gibberish and lies on this forum. It still continues now on MSE, this snippet made me laugh out loudest:

Fadesa were the original master developers for the Moroccan showcase mega resort known as Saidia - which will have the largest marina in the Med. Thousands of Brits, Spaniards, Russians and Frenchies reserved offplan property here as did over 60 UK Premiership footballers including John Terry, the Neville brothers and Rio Ferdinand.

Luckily the Moroccans, in the shape of a moroccan property company owned by the Kings cousin, had the good sense to buy Fadesa out of the Saida contract just a few months back, thus protecting the interests of Saidia investors, many of whom are Brits.

Perhaps they had early wind of problems at Fadesa.

I invested in this site, phew!

Dated 16th July 2008 and all lies. What is that smell...a mixture of desperation and bullsheet.

showcase mega resort

Just ignore the mud and pylons. It will be mega, honestly...please buy into this...we just need a few more suckers to be able to afford the roads.

largest marina in the Med

All we need is the boats

60 UK Premiership footballers including John Terry, the Neville brothers and Rio Ferdinand.

As well as Tony Blair, George Bush, Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Joan Collins, Elton John, Tiger Woods...Margaret Thatcher....erm Amy Winehouse

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but who in their right mind will buy the assets off of Fadesa? With nothing selling, construction costs soaring, money in short supply...etc.

[The Soup Dragon]

Managed to post response beneath twice - just deleting this one.

Edited July 28, 2008 by The Soup Dragon

[The Soup Dragon]

Einstein71. Nobody investing in Saidia would pretend that it is close to being a completed resort. So yes, it still resembles a building site and the marina is empty.

You say the danger lights started flashing the minute you started reading the sales gibberish. There are things that have been said on here that have turned out to be incorrect or pie in the sky. However, those remarks were picked up on and responded to by Saidia investors.

I note that you have recently joined the forum and therefore have only offered your views post Martina-Fadesa’s troubles becoming public. That’s probably a very different perspective from that you would have had if you considered Saidia 2 years ago.

On Fadesa’s stock / stake in Saidia: It is likely that Fadesa’s stake in Saidia (and other Moroccan developments) will be bought out at a low price as they aren’t in a strong negotiating position.

Time will tell if Saidia makes a good investment or not, but I’ll leave you with one final thought. Do you think that those that have invested in Saidia would rather Martinsa-Fadesa continued as master developers, cutting corners as they go, or would we prefer for them to be bought out by an organisation on a more sound financial footing?

[Digs]

...Dogbox is in Morocco now, he owns 6 of these babies, ....

Did he really buy 6?

What do people think - will the prices return to their original level e.g. £186k for a hibiscus villa with pool.

I'm once more looking into the market for a villa, close to the UK and warm beach - so South Spain/morocco seems the catchment area.

[Jesus of nazareth]

I thought Dogbox only had one unit in Saidia?

[DANNY]

I have not had the time or inclination to post on here before, but I have finished work early and Mrs Danny and little ones have gone camping for a few days so a little time to kill.

Some muppets on here continually take the pi** out of dogbox whose biggest crime as far as I can see is being too enthusiastic and having far too much time on his hands. As I understand he has bought one Hibiscus Villa on VVT8. As from two weeks ago there were a handful left ranging in price from £243,000 to £330,000 inclusive of VAT. Regarding ' keeping their value' as the resort starts to take shape as it is now, these prices will only go up. Dogbox has probably made a nice little profit already.

I'm not doing the whole pitch but, direct flights - next year, hotels complete - next year, restaurants, shops etc, the whole Moroccan experience, this resort much to some posters dismay will, in time, be a hugh success.

Many, like me took a calculated punt in investing in Sadia. I visited 18 mths ago and became convinced that this is a 7- 10 year investment. There have been delays, as in any project like this - but the build now is cracking on.

I am sure that the Fadesa problem will be sorted. The resort will probably be finished nearer 2011/12 not 2010.

Someone asked about investing in a Villa in Saidia. I am absolutly no expert but if you are serious you should definitely visit the site and get a feel for it.

Finally to you doom-mongers, of course people can post personal views and all that, but make sure you come back when Sadia is alive and kicking and slag it off then. In the meantime in your sad little worlds you can only hope and pray that it is not successful because you have not had the foresight or ba**s to go for it yourselves.

[esmerelda]

OH BRAVO Danny! Well said!

What I find so peculiar is that the gloaters, doommongers and naysayers never seem to post anything about what THEY do apart from make snide remarks about other people's investments!! (& I make an honorable exception of catara who i did challenge sometime ago and who responded magnificently!)

maybe you guys .......don't .........actually (perish the thought!!!)....do anything..........except .........sit on this forum??????

Or maybe....it's a kind of reverse property porn thing you've got going on?

None of you have any idea about the totality of anyone else's investments so how can you launch such vitriol sometimes is beyond me. -yes I would agree that saida is a bit of a punt for someone sole nestegg, but it is quite reasonable for a lifestyle investor OR someone who is looking at a long play. & NO I have not personally invested in this development because I don;t go for off plan...(personal choice that's all).

Also - if you don't rate dogbox....how come so many of you are speculating about what he is up to? Why do you care?

Personally I wouldn;t blame him if he has left the building after the flaming some of you have given him & for no good reason...and please don;t give me the "freedom of speech/personal expression" thang...I am all for informed constructive criticism but some of these comments have been infantile....

[Jesus of nazareth]

Well I have a real issue with Dogbox and that is he has continually knocked other resorts other than Saidia without knowing anything about them. This has been my problem with him all along and I have alway said this AND I have always said Saidia will be ok, but there are better investments in Morocco.

(Its just for the record you know)

NURSE !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited July 29, 2008 by Jesus of nazareth

[euroscooby]

I am an owner of two apartments on RT-7. I could do without the credit crunch affecting confidence but as its a part of the euroscooby long term pension plan I am very relaxed. My resaons for buying are unchanged and am excited about the ongoing development.

I have posted on numerous occassions on this thread and my position has always been clear.

Recently I have said nothing, all the arguments and discussions have been done and done again!

Whilst I have not always agreed with Jesus and Catara et al there was an element of intellectual debate.

When some 'newbie jonny come lately' like Einstein comes along rehasing all the old lines and gloating like he is the first man to arrive on the thread I end up feeling a little sad at the capacity of weak individuals to jump on other people's 'perceived' misery.

One feels that much sadder about the human condition.

Hey Ho

[Digs]

Without completely derailling this thread,

"What do people think - will the prices return to their original level e.g. £186k for a hibiscus villa with pool.

I'm once more looking into the market for a villa, close to the UK and warm beach - so South Spain/morocco seems the catchment area."

Any advice on where should I be looking?

Gratefully appreciated.

[joeb]

Did he really buy 6?

What do people think - will the prices return to their original level e.g. £186k for a hibiscus villa with pool.

I'm once more looking into the market for a villa, close to the UK and warm beach - so South Spain/morocco seems the catchment area.

has anybody any more info on lixus palms a new resort just released through siroco sounds interesting

[Fazbods]

Hi, just been reading through everyone's posts and there seems to be animated discussion as to which areas of Morocco are the premier investment location. I'm married to a Moroccan (don't do it!) and when I'm not being run ragged by her indoors and the kids I spend my time buying and selling property and also brokering it to clients from the UK. My experience so far has been that there is no place in Morocco like Marrakech, both for capital appreciation and rental returns.

Unlike many people I have actually travelled to Saidia to see what the fuss is about and my own educated opinion is that it is much ado about nothing. Apart from being little more than a Costa del Casbah, the resort will take a minimum 5 years to take off. That's OK for those who are looking for long-term investments or a retirement home, but not for people wanting to turn their money around more quickly.

Having said that, at present there seems to have been a slowdown in the luxury villa sector of Marrakech properties. Prices have stabilised owing to the glut of developments in and around the city, and in some cases they have even come down by between 5-10%. I would surmise that this picture is true for the whole country. In any case August generally sees a slowdown in the market since a lot of folk are on holiday.

I prefer to buy cheaper more affordable properties in Marrakech pitched at local, mainly first-time, buyers where the capital appreciation on your investment can be 100% in one year, and where resale potential is far better. I have shied away from the big coastal developments because of the large capital outlay involved relative to timescale of expected returns. On top of that 99% of no-frills airlines flying in from Europe are destined for Marrakech and nowhere else.

A final word of caution: making quick money is hardly an option for foreigners investing in Morocco unless you plan to spend it here, since all profits have to be repatriated through the Office for Change, a process which is tedious and which will only change in 2010 when the Moroccan government has committed to lifting exchange restrictions on the dirham.

If anyone wants to know more on this topic or wants to hear about current opportunities please fell free to call me, Faisal, on 07509 224722 (UK mobile).

[Macluis]

Let's be franck...

The Moroccan market has been driven mainly by speculation - something quite similar to the Thailand housing bubble that saw a depreciation of 80% of its value from 1996 to 2000 -

Speculators were mainly French, English and Spanish.

The Spanish speculators are deserting the market as some are about be in negative equity due to the late investment in Spain, some cannot sell current holding either in Spain or Morocco putting them in the brink of defaulting in the month to come...unless spanish price pick up again and seller comes back... with 85% of spanish household owning a flat and stock at level not seen in human history (over 1 million flat available and not sold) ... how don't see how that happen

->i see massive opportunitty for the wise investors that has had patience over the spanish market , price could wuite easely by divided by 2 or 3 in the next 5 years in key locations.

The English speculator have seen a plunge fro +10% to -10% over a year in UK property price. According to analyst - or just ask the common people on the ground - price will fall further another 20% that will put pressure on the english banking system and will push further down housing price.

->i see price 50% down from their peak in the next 5 years and no need to travel through cheap and dangerous flight.

The French speculators are vanishing since the economy is deteriorating fast , and is about to enter a recession. Price are about to fall by 15-20% according to analyst and more depending on the region.

One has to informed correctly by recent move from the government to stop the speculation by adding a set of law and regulation to bring back price to a level affordable to the moroccan - a promise made by the king.

We have already seen some measure :

-high taxation on non rented flat or empty flat

-Tax on rent revenue

-fight of the black market - hidden rent return

and a measure of series to fight speculation...

Then there is inflation and petrol price.

Flight and boat tickets have soared

price of service have gone crazy

Remember that prices of land has been multiplyed by 10 and price of housing by 7.

If a fool think that it can still double his money then he might be living still in 1996....and forgot that we are in 2008 that has seen major housing market correection.