A Bigger Threat Even Than The Debt Crisis?

[huw]

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. I thought my parents gave a damn until yesterday when I discovered that their attitude is that they only have 20 years left and screw everyone else...their grandchildren included.

Seriously?

Still, if they reproduced in excess of the replacement level, 'screw everyone else' was already implicit in that (less so way back when, of course, since the environmental and resource problems weren't so evident).

Bottom line: the more kids you have, the more you screw them...

[ccc]

Seriously?

Still, if they reproduced in excess of the replacement level, 'screw everyone else' was already implicit in that (less so way back when, of course, since the environmental and resource problems weren't so evident).

Bottom line: the more kids you have, the more you screw them...

Only true in Austrian basements...

[huw]

You do realise that temperatures have been that warm in the UK before ? You do realise that the only reason we have coal in our land is due to previous tropical temperatues in the land that is now Britain ?

Was the piece of land we call Britain at its current latitude at the time?

(I genuinely don't know, but it seems feasible that the climate which any particular patch of rock experienced in distant geological times might have been tropical because it was in the tropics ).

[Guest anorthosite]

You do realise that temperatures have been that warm in the UK before ? You do realise that the only reason we have coal in our land is due to previous tropical temperatues in the land that is now Britain ?

Ever heard of continental drift? The UK was at a different lattitude in the Carboniferous about 300 million years ago when that happened.

[Minos]

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. I thought my parents gave a damn until yesterday when I discovered that their attitude is that they only have 20 years left and screw everyone else...their grandchildren included.

Nice.

It's your Grandparent's generation I feel sorry for. They perhaps fought in a world war so that you could run around like a big girl's blouse shouting "the sky is falling".

[ccc]

Was the piece of land we call Britain at its current latitude at the time?

(I genuinely don't know, but it seems feasible that the climate which any particular patch of rock experienced in distant geological times might have been tropical because it was in the tropics ).

No it wasn't. (See previous poster) The Earths continents are continually moving . However the land that was sitting where we are now was also considerably warmer.

A few hundred million years ago the World was a very different place. Something interesting I always remember from my courses:

There was a far higher oxygen level at this time in the Earths environment. The only reason that spiders and scorpions cannot grow very large is due to their relatively poor respiratory system.

During this time however they could grow much larger. There have been fossils found of scorpions that were over 3 feet long...

So when we watch all these cheesy films of dinosaurs and huge spiders and scorpions - it is not actually far from the truth.

Scary stuff !!! Not that people were around back then but still....

What I suppose I am trying to say is that the more you learn about the changes our planet has gone through - the more you realise the 'change' we are seeing today is fairly insigificant. Also the more you realise trying to do anything about it is pointless (in regards to 'stopping' climate change)

[libspero]

Well yes - in about 18 months time. They are from my little birch coppice which was planted 10 years ago and harvested last week! with the exception of a little petrol for the chainsaw totally carbon neutral.

Kurt. What happened to tearful farewells, sueing your old firm and moving to pastures new in the middle east?

[clv101]

It's sad reading this thread that so many apparently smart and free thinking people (at least regarding house prices and to a lesser extent economics in general) are so ignorant of some pretty basic science. Sure there are plenty of uncertainties in climate change research but half the things people have come out with here are just daft.

I'll just make a few general points:

Our scientific understanding of climate change predates political interest in the subject. Reed some papers from the late 70s and early 80s, the mechanisms and sensitivities are pretty much the same as we understand them today. Politics hasn't influenced the science.

Also climate change is good for no government, if governments could click their fingers and make it go away, they good. Bush's America adopted the "head in the sand hope it goes away" approach - it didn't and now Obama is forced to deal with it. He'd much rather not have to!

Many of the people attracted to the house price crash debate - at last a few years ago - were the lone wolf type. The kind of people who naturally challenge consensus, feel confident to strike out on their own with their own opinions. That natural skepticism of the mainstream view on house prices was spot on. Unfortunately similar skepticism of the mainstream view on climate change is misplaced.

[Minos]

It's sad reading this thread that so many apparently smart and free thinking people (at least regarding house prices and to a lesser extent economics in general) are so ignorant of some pretty basic science. Sure there are plenty of uncertainties in climate change research but half the things people have come out with here are just daft.

I'll just make a few general points:

Our scientific understanding of climate change predates political interest in the subject. Reed some papers from the late 70s and early 80s, the mechanisms and sensitivities are pretty much the same as we understand them today. Politics hasn't influenced the science.

Also climate change is good for no government, if governments could click their fingers and make it go away, they good. Bush's America adopted the "head in the sand hope it goes away" approach - it didn't and now Obama is forced to deal with it. He'd much rather not have to!

Many of the people attracted to the house price crash debate - at last a few years ago - were the lone wolf type. The kind of people who naturally challenge consensus, feel confident to strike out on their own with their own opinions. That natural skepticism of the mainstream view on house prices was spot on. Unfortunately similar skepticism of the mainstream view on climate change is misplaced.

In the 70's didn't scientists tell us we were heading to a new ice age?

[clv101]

In the 70's didn't scientists tell us we were heading to a new ice age?

It's truly amazing how influential a Time Magazine cover story can be 34 years later with enough secondary publicity.

[Guest anorthosite]

In the 70's didn't scientists tell us we were heading to a new ice age?

No, they didn't. The media did. A bit like the media saying house prices only go up.

[Minos]

It's truly amazing how influential a Time Magazine cover story can be 34 years later with enough secondary publicity.

Well did they or didn't they?

[MarkG]

In the 70's didn't scientists tell us we were heading to a new ice age?

Shh! You're not supposed to mention that.

Meanwhile Canada has had its first white Christmas nationwide for 40 years, 50% of America is covered in snow, and temperatures here have been 10-20C below normal for two weeks. But, of course, 'that's just weather, not climate' (whereas if there'd been no snow it would have been PROOF of 'global warming').

Edited December 26, 2008 by MarkG

[Guest X-QUORK]

It's your Grandparent's generation I feel sorry for. They perhaps fought in a world war so that you could run around like a big girl's blouse shouting "the sky is falling".

I maintained the status quo against the Warsaw Pact so that you get to gob off on the internet today, just for clarity.

[Minos]

Shh! You're not supposed to mention that.

Meanwhile Canada has had its first white Christmas nationwide for 40 years, 50% of America is covered in snow, and temperatures here have been 10-20C below normal for two weeks. But, of course, 'that's just weather, not climate' (whereas if there'd been no snow it would have been PROOF of 'global warming').

I'm afraid you just have to believe that the magic of global warming makes the world colder. Father Christmas is real too.

[Minos]

I maintained the status quo against the Warsaw Pact so that you get to gob off on the internet today, just for clarity.

Well that's something going in your favour then.

[Guest anorthosite]

Shh! You're not supposed to mention that.

Meanwhile Canada has had its first white Christmas nationwide for 40 years, 50% of America is covered in snow, and temperatures here have been 10-20C below normal for two weeks. But, of course, 'that's just weather, not climate' (whereas if there'd been no snow it would have been PROOF of 'global warming').

As opposed to you using it as evidence for no warming.

So, which camp are you in? The no warming theory or the it is happening but its not my fault theory?

[clv101]

Well did they or didn't they?

The Time article (and the scientists that provided data for it) was just wrong. For example it stated:

"Since the 1940s the mean global temperature has dropped about 2.7° F. Although that figure is at best an estimate, it is supported by other convincing data."

Time, Monday, Jun. 24, 1974

Well, we now know that to be totally wrong - temperatures didn't fall. There was a brief upward spike of around 0.2C for a couple of years around 1940 but other than that global temperature from the 30s to the 70s were essentially flat.

[Minos]

The Time article (and the scientists that provided data for it) was just wrong. For example it stated:

"Since the 1940s the mean global temperature has dropped about 2.7° F. Although that figure is at best an estimate, it is supported by other convincing data."

Time, Monday, Jun. 24, 1974

Well, we now know that to be totally wrong - temperatures didn't fall. There was a brief upward spike of around 0.2C for a couple of years around 1940 but other than that global temperature from the 30s to the 70s were essentially flat.

The scientists were wrong? How can that be?

[Guest X-QUORK]

The scientists were wrong? How can that be?

Silly! The journalists got it wrong, not the scientists.

[bear_or_bull]

It's your Grandparent's generation I feel sorry for. They perhaps fought in a world war so that you could run around like a big girl's blouse shouting "the sky is falling".

Didn't realise that they fought in a war so that people could use their freedom to invest in property as their main economic activity, drive houses (homes) way, way beyond wages, and so make sure that we'd all take a step backwards from the newly "meritocratic" britain - never mind creating the tinder for a flaming wreckage of an economy. What a waste we've made of the peace.

House prices cannot rise beyond wages without a cost - either recession, economic collapse, or social change...

I thought we were supposed to at least try to make the world better. Guess I was wrong. It would appear that all we should really aspire to is his and hers hummers, a pool, and a granite worktop, at any cost. Quick - bail in and buy a house so your future sweat and poverty can keep those that happened to be born before you in them manner to which they now think they deserve. And then convince your kids to do double the hard time. Nice. Boom without bust. Forever, and ever. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-- for ever.

[Guest anorthosite]

The scientists were wrong? How can that be?

It happens. And when is found out, it tends to be revealed pretty quickly.

No theory, no matter how important or well established is immune. After all, even Newton was proved wrong by an unknown young upstart called Einstein.

[Minos]

Didn't realise that they fought in a war so that people could use their freedom to invest in property as their main economic activity, drive houses (homes) way, way beyond wages, and so make sure that we'd all take a step backwards from the newly "meritocratic" britain - never mind creating the tinder for a flaming wreckage of an economy. What a waste we've made of the peace.

House prices cannot rise beyond wages without a cost - either recession, economic collapse, or social change...

I thought we were supposed to at least try to make the world better. Guess I was wrong. It would appear that all we should really aspire to is his and hers hummers, a pool, and a granite worktop, at any cost. Quick - bail in and buy a house so your future sweat and poverty can keep those that happened to be born before you in them manner to which they now think they deserve. And then convince your kids to do double the hard time. Nice. Boom without bust. Forever, and ever. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-- for ever.

Hey that's the difference between the Grandparents and the Jessies that live now - the Grandparents weren't willing to live in fear with a boot stamping on their faces.

[clv101]

The scientists were wrong? How can that be?

Because they didn't have the understanding and technology to answer the question maybe? Most scientists are wrong most of the time, when greater understanding is developed it replaces previous understanding. What's really daft is that some climate change skeptics continue to refer to obsolete science.

Newton was wrong about how the planets moved, Einstein's theory corrected him. Try telling Stephen Hawking he's wrong about black holes 'cos of Newtonian mechanics and see how far you get.

[Minos]

Because they didn't have the understanding and technology to answer the question maybe? Most scientists are wrong most of the time, when greater understanding is developed it replaces previous understanding. What's really daft is that some climate change skeptics continue to refer to obsolete science.

Newton was wrong about how the planets moved, Einstein's theory corrected him. Try telling Stephen Hawking he's wrong about black holes 'cos of Newtonian mechanics and see how far you get.

So it's not impossible that one day someone may discover that scientists predicting the end of the world as we know it now could be wrong?