Negative Mental Attitude

[ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs]

It might be worth hanging onto the pension - how old are you?

One day the boomers will be dead. It's a good 3-4 decades, but one day they will indeed be pushing up the roses. Pensions will make more sense then, and there will be a good ratio of earners to pensioners.

Well, I assume there will be...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But isnt the non-chav birthrate in freefall because we are having to choose between a child or a home? Let alone being able to have 2 children which a couple would have to produce to maintain population levels?!

[andy_wants_a_home]

quit your job. claim benefits and housing and go live a proper life for a good 4 years.

come back to working when it actually pays to do so.

you've become an under class wage slave, working for only the satisfaction and pride of working. and nothing else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I too wonder what the point is. Effectively since laboiur has come to power I have worked for nothing. I am much worse off now than I was in 97 I can affors less, with a substantially bigger deposit.

I kind of like your idea

I have become very despondent.

Just feel like I am going through the motions,

I feel like I could end up in a funny farm.

[right_freds_dead]

But isnt the non-chav birthrate in freefall because we are having to choose between a child or a home? Let alone being able to have 2 children which a couple would have to produce to maintain population levels?!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the poorer and less educated the next generation, the better drones they make.

[homeless]

the new rich= the couples with children that dont work

the new poor = the people that work but dont own there own home

prove me wrong

[Night Owl]

So with rent and council tax going away with half our take home pay I started to feel less enthusiasm for life and certainly less enthusiasm for work. Due to this I believe that I now have a serious motivation problem at work, where I turn up and do just about the bare minimum to keep my bosses happy.

Does anyone else feel this way or is it just me?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Take home pay is motivating, no question. If you want happy, enthusiastic staff then paying them more will help no end. It would help for me anyway.

Does everyone get really grumpy in a recession? I wasn't concerned with such things last time around.

[right_freds_dead]

the new rich= the couples with children that dont work

the new poor = the people that work but dont own there own home

prove me wrong

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ay (x x C x 5) = (ay x Xy = a) x = 16/8 or x = 2

(x260) x (x (y) x 2r (ay x y x 360) (=0)

easy.

[andy_wants_a_home]

ay (x x C x 5) = (ay x Xy = a)  x = 16/8 or x = 2

(x260) x (x (y) x 2r (ay x y x 360) (=0)

easy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OK I think I get it, but the number of left hand parenthesis should be the same as the number of right.

Having said that what on earth does it all mean?

I think the answer is 42

[Guest wrongmove]

Does everyone get really grumpy in a recession? I wasn't concerned with such things last time around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not everyone. I expect the old cliche still applies:

If your neighbour loses their job, it is a recession.

If you lose your job, it is a depression.

If you have work and small/zero debt, recessions are fine. Cheap houses, cars and big ticket items in general.

[andy_wants_a_home]

Not everyone. I expect the old cliche still applies:

If your neighbour loses their job, it is a recession.

If you lose your job, it is a depression.

If you have work and small/zero debt, recessions are fine. Cheap houses, cars and big ticket items in general.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I feel we need a recession to get us back to normality.

I guess a recession would suit me (but not if it last too long!!)

[RichM]

Guys, guys, guys, calm down, all is not lost.

These things go in cycles. Nu Labour have had a good go at being centrist, but their desire to spend! spend! spend!, stay in power, and "help the marginalised", has created a huge asset bubble, and bnggered the economy, that's all.

Much of what they have done can be reversed. This country's economy has been bnggered before, and has bounced back.

The demographic issues can be resolved quite quickly, with the only hardship being another boomer problem in 60 years - hardly anything for most of us to worry about!

House prices will come down, and while it will be painful for many of us, it will be a fresh start for this country. "zero year" will arrive soon.

In the mean time - clear your debts, save, have kids and live in rented accommodation; you might never own your home (though I expect you probably will) but at least you will have kids/grandkids to keep you company. learn new skills, look at other professions. if you really cannot stomach this country, try overseas (though personally I doubt you'll find anything all that worthwhile, not for the long-term).

The impending crash will provide the chance to change this country. The paradox of being (or rather, feeling) wealthy over the past few years is that while it would have been an easy time to properly reform things in this country, in reality people didn't want to rock the boat too much. They wanted to enjoy their creature comforts, and coo at the extra public spending, "aren't we nice to africans/the poor/gays/asylum seekers/immigrants/ethnic minorities/[fill in the blank]" (sorry to be cynical, I actually think a lot of these things are important, I just can't stand the self-righteous way in which New Labour have tried to "tackle" these issues), or just buy a f*ck-off big car - all the while content tht their house was worth a lot.

Post-crash, I suspect that many of the issues we complain about here - disincentives to work, high taxes, the chav/anti-social behaviour problems - will be clamped down on hard, people just won't be able to stomach the waste.

[Guest wrongmove]

I feel we need a recession to get us back to normality.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I expect you are right. Boom and bust seem to be part of the nature of capitalism, and maybe part of human nature itself.

At least those who read HPC should know that you BUY in busts and SELL in booms. Little point moaning about HPs, just save, save, save and wait. And visit HPC of course.

[RichM]

I had investments for my pension running through the seventies, eighties, and nineties, not exactly three decades of economic and political stability. A few times I had doubts and thought about cashing in. When they paid out in 2000 I realised I had taken the right decision to let them run to maturity. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly, the compound on 30-40 years worth of savings has got to be worth it. The sooner they start slashing taxes on pensions the better as well.

[Guest wrongmove]

Exactly, the compound on 30-40 years worth of savings has got to be worth it. The sooner they start slashing taxes on pensions the better as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With really long term saving, you should be able to buy as many under-priced as over-priced assets. With the tax incentives, pensions are still a no-brainer, IMHO.

Pity the people who cashed in their pensions (and returned all their tax breaks to the government) at the bottom of the share cycle, to invest the lot at the top of the property cycle.

[RichM]

wrongmove - yikes, there are some poor b@stards out there...

incidentally, do people have strong feelings about my avatar? I am thinking about moving back to christopher lee in "the wicker man"...

[Once in a lifetime]

Does everyone get really grumpy in a recession? I wasn't concerned with such things last time around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No nor was I, or my mates, big fluffy hairdos and hungry like the wolf

[andy_wants_a_home]

Exactly, the compound on 30-40 years worth of savings has got to be worth it. The sooner they start slashing taxes on pensions the better as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

True compounding is wonderful when you are on the right side of it. My concern is the huge deposit required to buy a shoebox = no savings,

Lifetime of debt.

No compunding on savings as there isnt any.

Lifetime of unmanagemenable debt = no life = NMA

I am well and truly f****d.

What is the point of working?

[zzg113]

Fair comment, but name me one country with less tax and a better health service.

Singapore.

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/

Even the poorest in UK are better off than most of the people that have ever lived in the world, past, present, home and abroad.

And so they should be! We are a First World nation for £ucks sake! That's like saying that poor people in the UK are better off than the poor in Haiti and somehow being proud of that????!

if you really cannot stomach this country, try overseas (though personally I doubt you'll find anything all that worthwhile, not for the long-term).

That's a bit of a jingoistic attitude isn't it RichM?

Edited May 7, 2005 by zzg113

[OnlyMe]

The abnkers have bastardized true capitlaism, at least the way capitalism worked in the past. Economies will only gorw is you can pesuade people to invest in productive enterprises. Now it seems manufacturing doesn;t matter, trade deficits don;t matter. The goods we produce and consume and most importantly housing is nothing more than an item against which a loan can be made in some eyes.

Interesting thread, shows the signs that you get a breakdown of effort and incentiive when the goalposts are articificially shifted. My guess is the next recession will not be like the last one and the knock on effects will be far greater, possibly including th ability of certain parties to print money out of thin air.

[Guest wrongmove]

Singapore.

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Singapore ! Is that the best you can do ?

Population (2003): 4.19 million (including permanent residents, foreign workers).

http://www.nationbynation.com/Singapore/Population.html

And so they should be! We are a First World nation for £ucks sake! That's like saying that poor people in the UK are better off than the poor in Haiti and somehow being proud of that????!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And this is just a circular argument - uk is rich, so it has a right to be rich. I assume that developing countries must always stay poor as well.

Being a "1st world country" is a temporary fact, not a right. Countries like China, India etc. will redefine this over the next few years.

[zzg113]

Singapore ! Is that the best you can do ?

Are you slagging off Singapore?? If so I shall have to ask you to step outside....Third World to First World in 50 years, high-tech and banking hub, racial harmony like the UK can only dream off, a healthy and well-educated population...it pisses all over the UK in the development stakes, never mind the fact the sun shines all the year round and Thailand and Malaysia are just a short car ride away.

uk is rich, so it has a right to be rich

That's not what I was saying at all, you clot. Comparing UK standards of living to Third World standards of living and then saying "Look, we in the UK have a higher standard of living than Bangladesh! Isn't that tremendous!!!!" is disingenuous at best and downright idiotic at worst.

Being a "1st world country" is a temporary fact, not a right. Countries like China, India etc. will redefine this over the next few years.

If China and India's ascent comes at the expense of the West, I can assure you that we will not take it lying down (the US especially).

Oh, and we are MUCH, MUCH BETTER THAN EVERYWHERE ELSE BECAUSE WE ARE GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE. Ok?

I think the Isrealis might have a more credible claim to that particular title.

Edited May 7, 2005 by zzg113

[RichM]

That's a bit of a jingoistic attitude isn't it RichM?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, there are lots of very good things about Britain. Obviously, I don't like the present government a great deal, but we have relatively little corruption otherwise, lots of proper team sports, good comedy on the box (well, occasionally), freedom of religion (there are a number of countries where many of us would be welcome), a large degree of freedom of speech, plenty of "green and pleasant hills", nice country pubs, general amiableness (if you get people at the weekend), good road markings (!), a lovely coastline, good professions (UK doctors are very good, universities by and large have good standard, I think), some good pop music, plus lots of other things that I personally would struggle without. I just think Britain is an acquired taste and that lots of people would be struggle elsewhere. But of course, it is down the individual.

Oh, and we are MUCH, MUCH BETTER THAN EVERYWHERE ELSE BECAUSE WE ARE GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE. Ok?

By the way, yo can call me Rich, zzg113.

[isoprene]

Listen boys and girls, it's no good being under the control of a boss and then wondering why you can't meet ends meet. I know it isn't easy, and anything worthwhile never is. Being your own boss means that you can think for yourself and control your destiny instead of being told what to do, etc.

I was working as an electronics engineer, which I admit at the beginning I quite enjoyed. Three years later I turned into a grumpy, depressed soul, doing the minimal effort required to do my job. Don't let this happen to you.

Whenever someone in the company wants you to do more, or take on more responsibility, think - whats in it for me? When people ask you about your job, don't say 'WE are doing ok / WE made such and such a profit last month'. Say 'THEY are doing alright / THEY made X amount profit last month' There is no 'WE'. Just you and them. If it was 'WE' then you would get an equal share of the profits and not some paltry wage. It is not your company. They love people who think they get respect and kudos by being part of a big company. It's laughable!

Managers are the worse. They act like they own the bloody business but are just another layer in the slave chain.

In hindsight, the amount of times I went over and above my duty to 'the company' and in real terms, got f@@k all out of it, makes me feel quite sick.

Sorry to be so blunt, but I deal in reality. I'd rather hit people with a 2 by 3 of stark truth.

Rant over

[Guest wrongmove]

Are you slagging off Singapore?? If so I shall have to ask you to step outside

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't get an offer like that every day !

But, please read my post. Where do I slag off Singapore - I'm sure it is a great country (as long as you don't like chewing gum...). I am jusy saying that a city state of 4M is not comparable.

That's not what I was saying at all, you clot. Comparing UK standards of living to Third World standards of living and then saying "Look, we in the UK have a higher standard of living than Bangladesh! Isn't that tremendous!!!!" is disingenuous at best and downright idiotic at worst.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again, please read my post. I compared our situation with EVERYONE EVER. I never used the term "3rd world country". I prefer developing country, actually. And stop patronising these people.They are not inferior by birth.

If China and India's ascent comes at the expense of the West, I can assure you that we will not take it lying down (the US especially).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Could you please clarify this statement ? Are you suggesting the West will invade a pair of nuclear powers with a combined population of about 2.5B !

And less of the abuse please - in a real debate that is usually interpreted as desperation, guru or not

[Guest wrongmove]

A popular, but fallacious debating technique: the straw man:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Description of Straw Man

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

Person A has position X.

Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).

Person B attacks position Y.

Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

Examples of Straw Man

Prof. Jones: "The university just cut our yearly budget by $10,000."

Prof. Smith: "What are we going to do?"

Prof. Brown: "I think we should eliminate one of the teaching assistant positions. That would take care of it."

Prof. Jones: "We could reduce our scheduled raises instead."

Prof. Brown: " I can't understand why you want to bleed us dry like that, Jones."

"Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that."

Bill and Jill are arguing about cleaning out their closets:

Jill: "We should clean out the closets. They are getting a bit messy."

Bill: "Why, we just went through those closets last year. Do we have to clean them out everyday?"

Jill: "I never said anything about cleaning them out every day. You just want too keep all your junk forever, which is just ridiculous."

[theChuz]

And less of the abuse please - in a real debate that is usually interpreted as desperation, guru or not 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He's always very blunt with what hes saying, I personally dont think he means anything by it, like someone with tourettes.