What Would Happen It Renters Stopped Payments To Landlords?

[Matt Henson]

I have many times said some LL are great...even some LA..so your emotional outburst here is unwarranted. I never said all renters are saints...clearly I am not. But I am not a sheep to be scammed by LL/LA either.

My VI is to decrease rents to a reasonable level for my family. I am honest and open about that.

There are limits as to what I would or would not do, contrary to your statement

I have never argued moraility, so where you get from is a puzzle. That is in your mind, not mine

LL/LA put themselves first, and they get pretty emotionally p off when renters begin to challenge their scamming methods, and we then begin to think along similar lines. It is about time renters put themselves first.

To legally withold rent...what would happen? Do you think I don't have the right to ask this here Steve?

Bob I am not sure your debate is articulate but perhaps you could accept more responsibility on yourself to make your families life better? the trouble with a free market is that whilst you are not prepared to pay more somebody may well be prepared to so the "price" is determined not by you but by the market.

The alternative to live in better accomadation could be social housing or develop yourself and your career to afford what you aspire to or change life style and live some where different.

You and you alone can change the course of your life not an odd ball campaign agaist a very old and established market

[TheUnknown]

Also, if tenants stopped paying rents to landlords, then who would want to become a landlord? Then where is your precious rented home availability?

I used to be a landlord many years ago. I certainly do not consider myself scum - now I am a tenant and have an excellent relationship with my LL who, incidentally, hasn't put my rent up for four years.

I would never consider stealing from him - which witholding rent would be.

[shippers]

Okay so I'm a bit bevvied, for various personal reasons.

But this argument in its broadest sense I think does point towards the whole "all property is theft debate".

A really radical opinion would have us thinking of what's so great about personal ownership of small subdivided bits of land, with tiny boxes of isolation built on them, a lot of time owned cause you where lucky your parents died at the right time, or you where a mass murdering aristocrat who changed the law of the land to protect your "ownership" of bits of rock.

Why not some idea of grand communal living and co-operative land husbandry. Everyone has an idea of happily giving shelter to their fellow man.

The provocative attitude might say that the religious organisations are actually bound to do this by their articles of faith.

But if I turn up at the Vatican wanting to live there for a time, do people think I'd be allowed to, in all my humility.

My other excuse is that I'm listening to the Stockhausen Radio 3 concerts. Music to make you think different.

What if we kicked the whole notion of "ownership" into touch, what then?

[Authoritarian]

I've always quite fancied the idea of a landlord database, where renters could share information about landlords to try and stop unsuspecting tenants getting involved with crooked landlords. There's one or two I've used that would certainly get black balled

[Matt Henson]

I've always quite fancied the idea of a landlord database, where renters could share information about landlords to try and stop unsuspecting tenants getting involved with crooked landlords. There's one or two I've used that would certainly get black balled

That I firmly agree with ....

Interesting on the previous post re property = theft, the trouble with socialist ideals is the that the human nature just isn't communal, not a single maxist/socialist political system has succeeded quite simply because human reached the top of the food chain for a reason. If one strives to be better than the other, why should one be the same. We by our very nature (evolution) are competitve, that is why the fittest survive

[Bubble Pricker]

May I ask, what if the LL was being repo'd, AND the tenant stopped rent for the 6 months, could the LL get a tenant evicted whilst being repo'd or could the tenant use the delaying tactic (I'm sick, my solicitors sick etc) over those 6 months and get free rent.

but the renter can still get a good 6 months or so free, if delaying court proceedings a few times as suggested may help

I am not sure why you keep going on about "free" rent. If you don't pay the rent for 6 months or however long, then you still owe these amounts, and the LL (or the repossessing bank) can pursue you for those amounts, and they can do so long after you have moved out, as soon as they know your new address. You would also find it hard to rent anywhere again, as yur credit file would be tainted and it would be difficult to get a reference.

[renterbob]

I am not sure why you keep going on about "free" rent. If you don't pay the rent for 6 months or however long, then you still owe these amounts, and the LL (or the repossessing bank) can pursue you for those amounts, and they can do so long after you have moved out, as soon as they know your new address. You would also find it hard to rent anywhere again, as yur credit file would be tainted and it would be difficult to get a reference.

Aha, but what about those who plan to move back in with their parents?

Many are, due to massive mortgage debts.

To move into a place, and find that after one month the rents is so high that you cannot afford it, with kids nappies, bread price/eggs price increases/milk, rice/petrol/council tax/gas/electricity price increases...then, in theory, one can stop ALL rental payments and the LL, using due legal course, can take the renter to court, the renter can delay, and delay, and the LL MAY be repo'd becuase they have no income and cannot pay their increased mortgage.

Just testing the waters, cool it dudes and dudettes.

Thanks for all the advice though, and the PMs..some very useful legal eagles amongst us.

[Matt Henson]

Aha, but what about those who plan to move back in with their parents?

The honest reality is that you may take your parents down with you as credit ratings have a things called associates, if you renade on rent due and the LL take you to court even in your absence, a CCJ will be made. It you do not pay within two weeks that CCJ is recorded against your credit rating and anybody you "associate" with. If you live with yoru parents that easily become them.

Secondly you need good reason to delay court proceedings and as the small claims court is designed to be swift it will only tollerate a couple of reasonable excuses.

The CCJ will be recorded against you even if you give no forwarding address, finally if you ever chose to rent again, you would have a poor credit rating in the checks and may not get the house you want.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Matt Henson

[shippers]

That I firmly agree with ....

Interesting on the previous post re property = theft, the trouble with socialist ideals is the that the human nature just isn't communal, not a single maxist/socialist political system has succeeded quite simply because human reached the top of the food chain for a reason. If one strives to be better than the other, why should one be the same. We by our very nature (evolution) are competitve, that is why the fittest survive

Okay so let's go COMPLETELY capitalist and meritocratic, and bring in 100% inheritance taxes on all land and property. This is where Thatcher copped out, when she was privatising the council houses she should really also have got rid of the monarchy, if she really believed in a meritocratic democracy of course. This finances education and research. You get to have in a lifetime what you've earned through your own labour, and not on what some pointy eared relative a couple of generations ago managed to "hand down".

By the way my thing isn't really a socialist ideal. I believe people should be rewarded for their efforts, their application of abilities and knowledge. Problem is a lot of wealth seems to have been developed not because of real ability and personal application of talent, but because of accident of birth.

Of course it's not going to change, but I do get bored with the hypocrisy of religious types, especially those at the head of state religions, like Ayatollahs and Queens.

[renterbob]

The honest reality is that you may take your parents down with you as credit ratings have a things called associates, if you renade on rent due and the LL take you to court even in your absence, a CCJ will be made. It you do not pay within two weeks that CCJ is recorded against your credit rating and anybody you "associate" with. If you live with yoru parents that easily become them.

Secondly you need good reason to delay court proceedings and as the small claims court is designed to be swift it will only tollerate a couple of reasonable excuses.

The CCJ will be recorded against you even if you give no forwarding address, finally if you ever chose to rent again, you would have a poor credit rating in the checks and may not get the house you want.

Never heard of associates, never had a CCJ. You seem to know alot about CCJs Matt.

However, I find it very difficult to accept that if a person who cannot afford rent moves in with their parents, it affects their parents credit rating...though my parents never use credit the thought of moving back in...OMG....however many 'home owners' 'BTL wannabees' will be, and pronto.

You reinforce my theory that a renter could get delayed court proceedings, lets say twice, for four months or so...get free rent in the meantime, then get a sly solicitor, and BINGO! a year has gone by. Free rent for a year.

These BTL guys are actually becomming very good in my book now, good social LL, just like the good old days, but without the bills

Expect alot of this as food becomes a priority and rent secondary.

Renters are slowly but surely gaining their power back.

[Potwalloper]

I believe people should be rewarded for their efforts, their application of abilities and knowledge. Problem is a lot of wealth seems to have been developed not because of real ability and personal application of talent, but because of accident of birth.

Of course it's not going to change, but I do get bored with the hypocrisy of religious types, especially those at the head of state religions, like Ayatollahs and Queens.

I get bored with the 'let's just switch off gravity, then we could fly' types who don't recognise that all of humanity have a fundamental drive to help their offspring. What a daft idea to try to work against that!

[renterbob]

I get bored with the 'let's just switch off gravity, then we could fly' types who don't recognise that all of humanity have a fundamental drive to help their offspring. What a daft idea to try to work against that!

Oh, by your logic there are no child abusers who harm there own children.

but there are.....there goes your argument...up in the sky, despite gravity.

[Potwalloper]

However, I find it very difficult to accept that if a person who cannot afford rent moves in with their parents, it affects their parents credit rating..

Well, I suppose I shouldn't be bemused after your posts, but I am.

Do you mean you don't like it or you don't believe it?

[renterbob]

Well, I suppose I shouldn't be bemused after your posts, but I am.

Do you mean you don't like it or you don't believe it?

I don't like it, it affects the innocent.

However, if one really, really wants to shaft someone we could all stop renting, get some CCJs to our names, but only after we move into the LLs daughters place.

A double whammy.

but you avoided the critical point, where your argument falls down...there are those who have no wish to help their offspring.

Edited August 2, 2008 by renterbob

[Potwalloper]

Oh, by your logic there are no child abusers who harm there own children.

but there are.....there goes your argument...up in the sky, despite gravity.

I used the term humanity loosely (as opposed to losely).

[shippers]

I get bored with the 'let's just switch off gravity, then we could fly' types who don't recognise that all of humanity have a fundamental drive to help their offspring. What a daft idea to try to work against that!

SOCIALIST!

[renterbob]

I used the term humanity loosely (as opposed to losely).

Okidoki

Lets all chill and be loose about humanity.

Even better lets all be loose about any critical statements we claim are true.

Edited August 2, 2008 by renterbob

[Matt Henson]

Never heard of associates, never had a CCJ. You seem to know alot about CCJs Matt.

Perhaps you should learn....! when did you last check your credit rating? you may be surprised

[Guest Steve Cook]

I've always quite fancied the idea of a landlord database, where renters could share information about landlords to try and stop unsuspecting tenants getting involved with crooked landlords. There's one or two I've used that would certainly get black balled

I think this is an excellent idea

[Guest Steve Cook]

I have many times said some LL are great...even some LA..so your emotional outburst here is unwarranted. I never said all renters are saints...clearly I am not. But I am not a sheep to be scammed by LL/LA either.

My VI is to decrease rents to a reasonable level for my family. I am honest and open about that.

There are limits as to what I would or would not do, contrary to your statement

I have never argued moraility, so where you get from is a puzzle. That is in your mind, not mine

LL/LA put themselves first, and they get pretty emotionally p off when renters begin to challenge their scamming methods, and we then begin to think along similar lines. It is about time renters put themselves first.

To legally withold rent...what would happen? Do you think I don't have the right to ask this here Steve?

I absoloutely do think you have the right.

If there is anything in my manner that has given you the impression that I do not think this is the case, then my apologies. It has been a long week and perhaps I might choose my words more carefully....Nontheless.....

I also absolutey think that it stinks

Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

It's not because you are a tentant or he/she is a landlord.

It's because you and he/she have entered into a contract with each other (and I am not referring to a piece of paper here). In doing so, you are both honour bound to respsect the terms of that contract.

Everyone, is of course, at liberty to act disonourably. Sometimes there are unfortunate, but unavoidable reasons for this. Maybe you lose your job, maybe your own particular landlord really is an exploitative sh*t. In which case there is a pragmatic, if not also a moral argument one could construct in justifcation of one's actions.

However, you appear to be saying that there is an argument for acting dishonorourbly to a whole class of people for no other reason than they belong to that class of people.

Whichever way you look at it, this is a moral position.

It is a moral position whether or not you consider it to be so.

[renterbob]

I absoloutely do think you have the right.

If there is anything in my manner that has given you the impression that I do not think this is the case, then my apologies. It has been a long week and perhaps I might choose my words more carefully....Nontheless.....

I also absolutey think that it stinks

Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

It's not because you are a tentant or he/she is a landlord.

It's because you and he/she have entered into a contract with each other (and I am not referring to a piece of paper here). In doing so, you are both honour bound to respsect the terms of that contract.

Everyone, is of course, at liberty to act disonourably. Sometimes there are unfortunate, but unavoidable reasons for this. Maybe you lose your job, maybe your own particular landlord really is an exploitative sh*t. In which case there is a pragmatic, if not also a moral argument one could construct in justifcation of one's actions.

However, you appear to be saying that there is an argument for acting dishonorourbly to a whole class of people for no other reason than they belong to that class of people.

Whichever way you look at it, this is a moral position.

It is a moral position whether or not you consider it to be so.

Thanks for your post Steve, and I agree with you that it stinks, totally agree.

But as families are pushed more and more over the edge with the credit crisis ever growing this may be an unfortunate alternative.

We share good information here how LL/EA/LA can make profits, skim a little here and there...and I was just testing the waters to see what powers renters could invoke, even if a little shady....it is purely a financial decision, and no decent tenant would have a go at a decent LL.

As a renter, I would certainly stop all rental payments and take the 6 months free rent, even if the LL went to the wall, if that meant I could put food on the table. Nothing personal, and private LL are in it for the money, as many here testify too. Renters with a similar view would certainly be able to delay court proceedings for a long, long time, whilst getting free rent.

Morally, is it corect that a private LL buys up all the local properties, hikes up all the rents and forces families to pay over 50% of their take home pay? I always keep away from morals...ones mans love is another mans hate.

[renterbob]

yep, courts are full at the moment, and evictions are seen as low level, infact my landlord wanted me out in march i told him no, he had no option but to sign a new contract for 6 months hoping to raise the price again, this time am going to say no to the price rise and no to the leaving. hoping he takes me too court.

Kennichi recently wrote

'Considering I do lots of property rental accounts , I have noticed there is a big hole in most of them , a couple years back as a land lord you had to insure or put into a trust fund the deposit of your tenants, as said only 2 out of 32 actually have done this....

The penalty is 3 months rent for not putting it into such a trust or insured status... which adds even more pressure to these 'landlords'.'

So, there's three months free rent from the vast majority of LL who are'nt obeying the law.

How do we find out if the Landlord has put our deposits in such a trust fund? And who do we complain to if they haven't

[Matt Henson]

Thanks for your post Steve, and I agree with you that it stinks, totally agree.

But as families are pushed more and more over the edge with the credit crisis ever growing this may be an unfortunate alternative.

We share good information here how LL/EA/LA can make profits, skim a little here and there...and I was just testing the waters to see what powers renters could invoke, even if a little shady....it is purely a financial decision, and no decent tenant would have a go at a decent LL.

As a renter, I would certainly stop all rental payments and take the 6 months free rent, even if the LL went to the wall, if that meant I could put food on the table. Nothing personal, and private LL are in it for the money, as many here testify too. Renters with a similar view would certainly be able to delay court proceedings for a long, long time, whilst getting free rent.

Morally, is it corect that a private LL buys up all the local properties, hikes up all the rents and forces families to pay over 50% of their take home pay? I always keep away from morals...ones mans love is another mans hate.

On that basis I presume you would take a shotgun and rob a post office "to put food on the table"? it is just as illegal as robbing rent due to a landlord

Again you never seem to actualy listen to the counter argument, you have never actual anwsers the questioned of what would happen if you drove all the LL's to wall? where would you live?

You also assume all LL's live hand to mouth like you, I could afford to have my rental property empty indefinitely and would pursue any tenant who did not pay the rent due. Not all LL's are desparate, just those who entered the market foolishly.

Bob you confuse me, you say you are 24, you say you are married, you now say you worry about put food in your families mouths yet you are say you live in a city and spend about £350 a month on rent. Plus you said your LL now pays your council tax.

That doesn't add up unless you live in a council house on benefits, in which case why are you moaning about LL's?

Which leads to a final point, few people chose between rent or food because we have a benefits system and those that are not captured by that (better off home owners) should have the foresight to have some savings or some access to credit or insurance in case of hard times.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Matt Henson

[renterbob]

On that basis I presume you would take a shotgun and rob a post office "to put food on the table"? it is just as illegal as robbing rent due to a landlord

Again you never seem to actualy listen to the counter argument, you have never actual anwsers the questioned of what would happen if you drove all the LL's to wall? where would you live?

You also assume all LL's live hand to mouth like you, I could afford to have my rental property empty indefinitely and would pursue any tenant who did not pay the rent due. Not all LL's are desparate, just those who entered the market foolishly.

Bob you confuse me, you say you are 24, you say you are married, you now say you worry about put food in your families mouths yet you are say you live in a city and spend about £350 a month on rent. Plus you said your LL now pays your council tax.

That doesn't add up unless you live in a council house on benefits, in which case why are you moaning about LL's?

Which leads to a final point, few people chose between rent or food because we have a benefits system and those that are not captured by that (better off home owners) should have the foresight to have some savings or some access to credit or insurance in case of hard times.

I would not rob a bank...too risky..but would be prepared to stop payment to the LL if I ha da choice of to pay rent or get food. Easy choice.

What...24? Who said that...you're confusing yourself Matt...If only I were 24...

A council tenant on benefits

Matt..do you know most Uni leavers are in HUGE debts, the like the UK has never seen, on top of this we have LL asking huge rentals, and then the Uni leavers are expected to have huge mortgages to fund these new build property developer scum.

These people don't have savings......none of them...just huge credit card debts on top of the student loans.....

You do realise this doesn't add up..and hence why banks are crashing....forget little LL and little EAs...we are talking banks....total collapse.

The rental market is dying as the buying market has/is.

I do worry about food prices, and that comes before rental payments....if push came to shove the LL would get NOTHING off me, and be too broke - like many are - to pursue it for 1 year plus through the already overcrowded courts.

OK...if all LL went to the wall....and the places were auctioned...and still no buyers...guess what happens?

Edited August 3, 2008 by renterbob

[Matt Henson]

I would not rob a bank...too risky..but would be prepared to stop payment to the LL if I ha da choice of to pay rent or get food. Easy choice.

What...24? Who said that...you're confusing yourself Matt...If only I were 24...

A council tenant on benefits

Matt..do you know most Uni leavers are in HUGE debts, the like the UK has never seen, on top of this we have LL asking huge rentals, and then the Uni leavers are expected to have huge mortgages to fund these new build property developer scum.

These people don't have savings......none of them...just huge credit card debts on top of the student loans.....

You do realise this doesn't add up..and hence why banks are crashing....forget little LL and little EAs...we are talking banks....total collapse.

The rental market is dying as the buying market has/is.

I do worry about food prices, and that comes before rental payments....if push came to shove the LL would get NOTHING off me, and be too broke - like many are - to pursue it for 1 year plus through the already overcrowded courts.

OK...if all LL went to the wall....and the places were auctioned...and still no buyers...guess what happens?

"What...24? Who said that...you're confusing yourself Matt...If only I were 24..." its what you said in previous post

I left Uni in 1990 which about £7000 of debt and that was unusual 18 years ago (my dad was rich but didn't give me a penny, so no grant), I worked, I shared flats and I paid it off, I wasn't allowed a credit card because of the overdraft, it took me 4 years to get my credit rating straight again before getting my first credit card with a stunning £350 credit limit.

Some times I was so broke I used to make roll ups from fag end from the ash trays in the flat or eat only rice for a week but I always always paid the rent because with no roof you are on the street and that is a hard place to get out of.

Banks went bust in my day as well, remember BCCS? NR went down because of the BBC and if the goverment had handled it properly it would still be in private hands.

Bob the world has had tough time before but the rental market didn't go up with the house price mania and so how is it going to come crashing down, find me the evidence that suggests all LL's are on the verge of collapse and I might beleive you.

As for pursuing you through court it is simple and quick hence the reason for the small claim court, if you don't pay your CCJ that only cost me £50 to get, I can order the ballif to take your possesions and trash your credit rating out of shear spite, at least that way I went some way to wrong the right of stealing off me.

"OK...if all LL went to the wall....and the places were auctioned...and still no buyers...guess what happens?" I don't know what? the banks would rent them out?

Bob you just don't live on the same planet as me or anybody else, have you no personal respect or standards, would you allow your self to get pushed off the edge of society just because you a have really bad chip on your shoulder, where does your pathalogical hate of LL's come from?

Edited August 3, 2008 by Matt Henson