How Mortgage Banks Magically Create Money

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

How can you hold any credibilty after such a bizarre and twisted post?

I don't think Alistair Darling voted to bomb children. And I don't think he or any other sensible person does either.

I find him entirely credible. It's you I find twisted and bizarre.

[?...!]

I find him entirely credible. It's you I find twisted and bizarre.

Look.

We are not all unwitting victims of some evil super class belonging to some mega rich secret club (otherwise know as banks) who have trapped the population of the whole world in a doomed effort to harvest our planet for their vile and peverted lusts.

Believe whatever you want. It makes no difference to me, but I'm too old to know your wasting your time by subscribing to such fantastic drivel.

Take responsibility for yourself and stop blaming the terrible circumstances in which you exist.

Edited October 10, 2007 by ?...!

[yaakov]

Look.

We are not all unwitting victims of some evil super class belonging to some mega rich secret club (otherwise know as banks) who have trapped the population of the whole world in a doomed effort to harvest our planet for their vile and peverted lusts.

Believe whatever you want. It makes no difference to me, but I'm too old to know your wasting your time by subscribing to such fantastic drivel.

Take responsibility for yourself and stop blaming the terrible circumstances in which you exist.

not wishing to get into a personal argument, I have to say I agree with ?...!

[Injin]

Look.

We are not all unwitting victims of some evil super class belonging to some mega rich secret club (otherwise know as banks) who have trapped the population of the whole world in a doomed effort to harvest our planet for their vile and peverted lusts.

Believe whatever you want. It makes no difference to me, but I'm too old to know your wasting your time by subscribing to such fantastic drivel.

Take responsibility for yourself and stop blaming the terrible circumstances in which you exist.

I invite you to prove your claims by refusing to use legal tender and not paying your taxes. While you are at it, send all your passports, licences, exam certificates etc back to the state and live without those. Finally, drop all your bank accounts and offer to pay your utilities without pounds.

Good luck with your new found freedom.

[?...!]

I invite you to prove your claims by refusing to use legal tender and not paying your taxes. While you are at it, send all your passports, licences, exam certificates etc back to the state and live without those. Finally, drop all your bank accounts and offer to pay your utilities without pounds.

Good luck with your new found freedom.

It's called society you moron.

Why would I opt out of it?

Its a meritocratic means of working with other people. I am happy to participate.

Edited October 10, 2007 by ?...!

[Injin]

It's called society you moron.

Why would I opt out of it?

Its a meritocratic means of working with other people. I am happy to participate.

It's just as well you are happy to participate because if you don't you go to jail. Nothing meritocratic about that, really.

It's not called society, it's called statism. Also known as coercion, threats, bullying, kidnap, murder, extortion, theft, lies...that kind of thing.

The key point isn't that you like it, it's that you have no choice about it.

I fail to see how "We are not all unwitting victims of some evil super class belonging to some mega rich secret club (otherwise know as banks) who have trapped the population of the whole world in a doomed effort to harvest our planet for their vile and peverted lusts." if the system they have created is not optional. Makes no sense at all.

I also fail to see how anyone can "Take responsibility for yourself and stop blaming the terrible circumstances in which you exist." if they are not responsible nor ever can be for the system in which they are forced to take part in.

Responsibility requires choice, and there isn't any. (Even if you love it to bits!)

[thecrashingisles]

I invite you to prove your claims by refusing to use legal tender and not paying your taxes. While you are at it, send all your passports, licences, exam certificates etc back to the state and live without those. Finally, drop all your bank accounts and offer to pay your utilities without pounds.

Good luck with your new found freedom.

I invite you to test your theories about freedom by moving to a remote island off the coast of Scotland where no police or banks will bother you as you go about your business. See how free you are when you can get your internet without using fiat currency and buy your groceries from Tesco for free... Oh sorry you can't because those things depend on a functioning society and a financial system backed up by the law....

[?...!]

It's just as well you are happy to participate because if you don't you go to jail. Nothing meritocratic about that, really.

It's not called society, it's called statism. Also known as coercion, threats, bullying, kidnap, murder, extortion, theft, lies...that kind of thing.

The key point isn't that you like it, it's that you have no choice about it.

I fail to see how "We are not all unwitting victims of some evil super class belonging to some mega rich secret club (otherwise know as banks) who have trapped the population of the whole world in a doomed effort to harvest our planet for their vile and peverted lusts." if the system they have created is not optional. Makes no sense at all.

I also fail to see how anyone can "Take responsibility for yourself and stop blaming the terrible circumstances in which you exist." if they are not responsible nor ever can be for the system in which they are forced to take part in.

Responsibility requires choice, and there isn't any. (Even if you love it to bits!)

So opt out.

Why not live on a desserted atoll? There are literally thousands the world over.

You can raise your own children free from the horrific tyrany that you yourself have suffered here in Western Europe.

[Injin]

I invite you to test your theories about freedom by moving to a remote island off the coast of Scotland where no police or banks will bother you as you go about your business. See how free you are when you can get your internet without using fiat currency and buy your groceries from Tesco for free... Oh sorry you can't because those things depend on a functioning society and a financial system backed up by the law....

Sigh.

And that disproves that the system you have just described isn't run by a handful of people........how, exactly?

Oh, actually it proves it. Thanks. Now we have to see whther it's a good idea to have a few hundred peopel making decisions for everyone and using violence to have their opinions the dominant ones.

What do you think about your slavery to another's whims?

[thecrashingisles]

It's just as well you are happy to participate because if you don't you go to jail. Nothing meritocratic about that, really.

It's not called society, it's called statism. Also known as coercion, threats, bullying, kidnap, murder, extortion, theft, lies...that kind of thing.

The key point isn't that you like it, it's that you have no choice about it.

I fail to see how "We are not all unwitting victims of some evil super class belonging to some mega rich secret club (otherwise know as banks) who have trapped the population of the whole world in a doomed effort to harvest our planet for their vile and peverted lusts." if the system they have created is not optional. Makes no sense at all.

I also fail to see how anyone can "Take responsibility for yourself and stop blaming the terrible circumstances in which you exist." if they are not responsible nor ever can be for the system in which they are forced to take part in.

Responsibility requires choice, and there isn't any. (Even if you love it to bits!)

I think your biggest problem isn't that you don't understand economics. It's that your political thinking is so immature. If you believe that people should be free from the arbitrary use of power against them then the absolute worst system you could think of would be the kind of anarchy you propose. The concept of a 'monopoly of violence' is actually profoundly liberating for the individual who wants to exercise their freedom while being part of society.

[Injin]

So opt out.

Why not live on a desserted atoll? There are literally thousands the world over.

You can raise your own children free from the horrific tyrany that you yourself have suffered here in Western Europe.

Why should I do that?

I have the right to not be threatened or coerced anywhere on earth. Right here is just fine, thanks!

If you like a system based on coercion and violence so much, why not go somewhere like a tiny island or atoll and set up a communist dictatorship so you can have it?

Why do I have to join in your little games?

[Injin]

I think your biggest problem isn't that you don't understand economics. It's that your political thinking is so immature. If you believe that people should be free from the arbitrary use of power against them then the absolute worst system you could think of would be the kind of anarchy you propose. The concept of a 'monopoly of violence' is actually profoundly liberating for the individual who wants to exercise their freedom while being part of society.

I just did a quick check of history and found you are completely wrong.

A list of socieites with a monopoly of force concentrated in a few hands that haven't eventually devolved into genocide if you will please -

[thecrashingisles]

I just did a quick check of history and found you are completely wrong.

A list of socieites with a monopoly of force concentrated in a few hands that haven't eventually devolved into genocide if you will please -

Try the country you're living in. I hope for your sake that you have the excuse of being young otherwise I'll have to conclude that you're stupid.

[?...!]

Why should I do that?

I have the right to not be threatened or coerced anywhere on earth. Right here is just fine, thanks!

If you like a system based on coercion and violence so much, why not go somewhere like a tiny island or atoll and set up a communist dictatorship so you can have it?

Why do I have to join in your little games?

It's not violence and coercion though is it.

Anyone can offer to run the country and the entire population is free to choose who they think is most suitable.

And that is exactly what happens.

[R K]

Here we go, yet another HPC thread hi-jacked by our resident nihilist/anti-capitalist/antibank protester.

The point is made. Repeating it 100s of times in every thread doesn't make it any more interesting or true.

Can you not start an anti-bank thread and spout your pointless arguments in there? Ta.

[@contradevian]

Here we go, yet another HPC thread hi-jacked by our resident nihilist/anti-capitalist/antibank protester.

The point is made. Repeating it 100s of times in every thread doesn't make it any more interesting or true.

Can you not start an anti-bank thread and spout your pointless arguments in there? Ta.

On the plus side the thread hasn't turned into a gold and Ron Paul ramping exercise

[yaakov]

I just did a quick check of history and found you are completely wrong.

A list of socieites with a monopoly of force concentrated in a few hands that haven't eventually devolved into genocide if you will please -

As someone with views tending towards libertarianism I tend to see where you are coming from but in the end I am afraid I am going to have to come down on the side of ?...! and thecrashingisles.

Any ideology taken to its extreme will never work in practice.

There has to be a society and we have to agree to some common rules by which to live. It may not be perfect but the alternatives are far worse.

I do not think there is a conspiracy of powerful people controlling the world. I think our leaders are as clueless as everyone else.

In my experience, most big organisations are completely incompetent. The Government is no different.

[mfp123]

Why should I do that?

I have the right to not be threatened or coerced anywhere on earth. Right here is just fine, thanks!

If you like a system based on coercion and violence so much, why not go somewhere like a tiny island or atoll and set up a communist dictatorship so you can have it?

Why do I have to join in your little games?

why do you have the right not to be threatened or coerced? you want a free society, eveyone can do what they want.

[JustYield]

Why not live on a desserted atoll? There are literally thousands the world over.

Beach Melba, perhaps?

Anyway, an anti-debt article written by a gold bug, how original. Next!

[Injin]

Try the country you're living in. I hope for your sake that you have the excuse of being young otherwise I'll have to conclude that you're stupid.

The inventor of the concentration camp, killed tens of millions of peopel last centruty alone? This one you mean? Ok, thanks for the agreement.

It's not violence and coercion though is it.

Anyone can offer to run the country and the entire population is free to choose who they think is most suitable.

And that is exactly what happens.

Taxes are voluntary? When did that happen? When and where did you get the right to tell me what to do and take my stuff? /mystified

Here we go, yet another HPC thread hi-jacked by our resident nihilist/anti-capitalist/antibank protester.

The point is made. Repeating it 100s of times in every thread doesn't make it any more interesting or true.

Can you not start an anti-bank thread and spout your pointless arguments in there? Ta.

I am anti-state/pro-capitalist. Being pro capitalist inevitably leads to being anti bank, because they have a coercive monopoly. The argument keeps cropping up, what can I say?

It's a banking/monetary thread. How banking and money works is probably relevent then, isn't it?

Every time the basics are denied by people. /shrug. They aren't going to get less true just because people don't like it.

[Mr Nice]

I just did a quick check of history and found you are completely wrong.

A list of societies with a monopoly of force concentrated in a few hands that haven't eventually devolved into genocide if you will please -

The problem in the Western countries isn't so much that the people in power are "evil" it's more that the populations as a whole are pretty apathetic and greedy.

No one forced anybody to take out ever increasing loans based on fairy tale promises of ever increasing home values. People's own greed and ignorance led them to do that.

As for wars and violence like in Iraq, the people in power could be voted out tomorrow if the population at large actually had a problem with it, but they don't.

They just tell themselves that it "isn't their doing" and "not their fault" and that "really they are good people."

Absolving themselves of all responsibility.

The ultimate point is that in ANY society, if the people involved aren't interested enough in policing their policers, there will be excesses and tyrannies. It isn't necessarily the fault of the system itself.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Mr Nice

[R K]

On the plus side the thread hasn't turned into a gold and Ron Paul ramping exercise

Only because it started out as one.

It would be alot easier to rename this site goldrampers.com and have a single thread on house prices.

[?...!]

As someone with views tending towards libertarianism I tend to see where you are coming from but in the end I am afraid I am going to have to come down on the side of ?...! and thecrashingisles.

Any ideology taken to its extreme will never work in practice.

There has to be a society and we have to agree to some common rules by which to live. It may not be perfect but the alternatives are far worse.

I do not think there is a conspiracy of powerful people controlling the world. I think our leaders are as clueless as everyone else.

In my experience, most big organisations are completely incompetent. The Government is no different.

I agree,

The great irony about being a libertarian is that you must accept that other people are free to not be libertarians and that in a totally free libertarian society, being a libertarian could potentially be a disadvantage.

Therefore regulation is required to provide the foundation for upholding the property rights on which a largely free and prosperous society can exist.

We must accept the best regulation suggested at the conception of our society and evolve that regulation alongside our cultural, economic, and technological needs. I think we must not strive towards perfection or indeed uptopia, but hold realistic and flexible goals that allow and encourage our sustainable development into the foreseeable future.

And that is largely what we have.

I admit some regulation that is passed is bad, some is devious, but not on the scale suggested by certain posters on this board. And the suggestion that our entire fiscal system (via the small print in some forgotten banking regulation) is robbing us, on an mass scale, to pay for the lavish excesses of some lazy parasitic supervillian. Is a total misrepresentation of the facts.

[ockham]

http://www.moneyweek.com/file/36187/how-mo...eate-money.html

How mortgage banks magically create money

This article is up there with that cartoon film (Money as Debt / Debt as Money) for sheer silliness. He writes:

" Loans are called "assets", but cash-on-deposit is a "liability". So the more money the banks lend, the greater their assets. The less cash they accept from savers, the smaller their liabilities!".

Overlooks the fact that, for every pound a bank lends (which is an asset once lent) it either (a) has to convert an asset into the loan (e.g. by converting cash on deposit to cash owed by the customer), or has to borrow a corresponding pound (which is a liability once borrowed, and thus exactly balances the 'asset' created by the loan).

[ParticleMan]

Overlooks the fact that, for every pound a bank lends (which is an asset once lent) it either (a) has to convert an asset into the loan (e.g. by converting cash on deposit to cash owed by the customer), or has to borrow a corresponding pound (which is a liability once borrowed, and thus exactly balances the 'asset' created by the loan).

Overlooks the fact that asset value recorded against a given loan is weighted, and that the weighting varies depending on the asset type, too. I believe I read (here) earlier that in the UK, for mortgages, the asset is only 50% of the capital outstanding.

I like ?...!'s logical razor though...

The great irony about being a libertarian is that you must accept that other people are free to not be libertarians and that in a totally free libertarian society, being a libertarian could potentially be a disadvantage.

As this gets right to the heart of the matter.