All Over, Bar The Btl Squealing

[Warwick-Watcher]

Spot on. More policing (very New Labour) coupled with more rights for tenants would be a better approach. BTL is just a business, and should be allowed the same tax breaks that other businesses are entitled to. If you introduced a law compelling BTL landlords to pay tax on their turnover, rather than their profits you would not only crash the housing market, you would crash the economy too.

Exactly. Make sure that CGT is applied properly to BTL properties. Easily done as HMRC could simply ask all lenders for details of every BTL mortgage.

If BTL is a long term game then the landlords presumably wouldn't object to long term rental contracts (say minimum 3 years, cancellable by tenant at 3 months notice, as is common here in Austria), giving thenants security of tenure?

I suspect the reality is a quick buck (or pound Sterling) of capital gains: which is taxable. I hope all those BTL experts have figured this out by now?

[The Ayatollah Buggeri]

Can somebody please show me the article which says GB is stopping mortage IO payments being offset against rental income? If this is true it will definitely crush the market which is why I find it strange because that is something GB definitely doesn't want to do (as he was the one who originally said no more boom and bust).

That logic didn't stop Brown from pulling dividend tax relief on pensions. The fact is that he needs the money. Public spending has spiralled out of control, and as the economy enters a downward phase, tax receipts do likewise. For example, there'll be 550 former Jessops employees who won't be paying much tax for a while, and fewer digital cameras sold on which GB can pocket 17.5% of the proceeds. I wouldn't be surprised if the sums he's doing reveal that he now needs to take a bigger tax slice of the HPI cake somehow, because there simply isn't any other part of the economy he can extract significantly more money from. The alternative is ever increasing personal taxation, and/or an increasing PSBR, inflation out of control and a collapse of sterling. He'll do whatever it takes to fend that off.

[PropertyGuru]

Has anyone got any references, please ?

watch your tv

[It is different this time]

Can somebody please show me the article which says GB is stopping mortage IO payments being offset against rental income? If this is true it will definitely crush the market which is why I find it strange because that is something GB definitely doesn't want to do (as he was the one who originally said no more boom and bust).

You are having a laugh aren't you? We shouldn't have had any 'boom' for him to keep his promise on 'bust' part but as we have been in 'boom' since 2000 there is nothing he can do to stop housing 'bust'. There is not such a thing ‘No bust’ if there is a ‘boom’.

We have had ‘the boom’ and it is only a matter of time what follows it.

If he thinks the generation of key workers & middle class will put up with his miracle economy & accept being priced out 9 out of 10 UK towns, forever, the muppet will have to think again. He has allowed the boom for his political gain and the bust will wipe out every single gain he has had.

[DblEntry]

As a tax advisor, I can say right now that there is absolutely no way that the government would deny interest deductibility on mortgage payments.

It is a fundamental principle of UK tax law that any borrowing costs connected with the commercial activities of a business should be tax deductible. That principle does and will always apply to BTL landlords, and there is no rational justification for them being a special case. The interest is a real cost to them which diminishes the profit on any property.

[Without_a_Paddle]

watch your tv

If it's on the TV then it's on the web.

Please provide a credible internet link or admit you are just in your usual fantasy land.

[PropertyGuru]

As a tax advisor, I can say right now that there is absolutely no way that the government would deny interest deductibility on mortgage payments.

It is a fundamental principle of UK tax law that any borrowing costs connected with the commercial activities of a business should be tax deductible. That principle does and will always apply to BTL landlords, and there is no rational justification for them being a special case. The interest is a real cost to them which diminishes the profit on any property.

'Fundamental principles' didnt seem to stop them introducing IR35, now did it?

And as a tax advisor too (apparently anyone with at least 1 post can claim that status) I say you are wrong. And it's no surprise you never manage to keep any clients past the first audit.

in fact, it's a miracle you aren't in jail.

The principle may very well apply NOW, but who the ****** do you think you are to say 'will always'? Got a crystal ball shoved up your ass have you? So it's not just overeating.

Where have you been living the last 10 years? Notice any changes? Retrospective tax laws? doubling of th etax rule book???

Oh, answered my own question. You've been in jail. Make the most of that 10 minute internet access now, wont you!

Edited June 24, 2007 by PropertyGuru

[Greenstuff]

I am just watching the politics show, Gordon Brown is on now and his housing schpeel quoted that he will be concentrating more on getting people on the housing ladder as the majority wants to buy, as well as housing association etc as some people do need places to rent.

Why would he then eliminate a tax break that would potentially leave many properties no longer up for rent?

I have searched and searched and can't find anything at all about this, do you have a link?

Not that i believe a work that rick (silent p) AKA Gordon Brown says.

PS they are on about Thamesmead now

Edited June 24, 2007 by Greenstuff

[Bethselamin]

As a tax advisor, I can say right now that there is absolutely no way that the government would deny interest deductibility on mortgage payments.

It is a fundamental principle of UK tax law that any borrowing costs connected with the commercial activities of a business should be tax deductible. That principle does and will always apply to BTL landlords, and there is no rational justification for them being a special case.

There is absolutely a rational justification for making real estate a special case. Real estate is essentailly in fixed supply, and so any tax deductions act to simply raise the price; in other words, the tax deductions serve no usefull purpose.

[PropertyGuru]

There is absolutely a rational justification for making real estate a special case. Real estate is essentailly in fixed supply, and so any tax deductions act to simply raise the price; in other words, the tax deductions serve no usefull purpose.

a very valid point - don't expect any agreement from the estate agents on here though, even though they love to spout the old nonsense 'larrrnd - they oint makin' any moore o'it'.

[Without_a_Paddle]

And as a tax advisor too (apparently anyone with at least 1 post can claim that status) I say you are wrong. And it's no surprise you never manage to keep any clients past the first audit.

in fact, it's a miracle you aren't in jail.

The principle may very well apply NOW, but who the ****** do you think you are to say 'will always'? Got a crystal ball shoved up your ass have you? So it's not just overeating.

Where have you been living the last 10 years? Notice any changes? Retrospective tax laws? doubling of th etax rule book???

Oh, answered my own question. You've been in jail. Make the most of that 10 minute internet access now, wont you!

Once again PG just makes up a fantasy to insult and discredit people. The ultimate strawman.

[redwing]

I can't imagine any government would bring in such a measure.

But, the current one will be happy about press discussion, forum discussion about removing tax deductability for interest payments.

I can imagine it will frighten off a lot of potential BTLers and make those with sizeable portfolios think about cashing in some and spreading their investment portfolios.

Should be just enough to take a bit more heat out of the market.

[sun n sea]

Just how many BTL'ers are registered as proper businesses? Don't most people use cheap high street mortgages and then forget to tell the lender about renting out?

Surely to benefit from business tax relief you need to be setup and run yourself as a proper business- with all the Red taoe that involves? It isn't possible for any other business to run as on a private individual basis for some things and then claim business status for others just to benefit from relief and other breaks- is it?

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

I'm beginning to think PG is actually two people.

That's the second useful thread he's posted in the last couple of days.

The writing style seems a little different too.

What give, PG, or have you just mellowed?

BTW here's a simple way that GB could get away with removing the BTL tax breaks: he can simply say the tax breaks remain for legitimate registered companies. So if you're into BTL, you must register with companies house. That would remove all the johnny come lately's and most of the shysters from the market.

[PropertyGuru]

I'm beginning to think PG is actually two people.

That's the second useful thread he's posted in the last couple of days.

The writing style seems a little different too.

What give, PG, or have you just mellowed?

BTW here's a simple way that GB could get away with removing the BTL tax breaks: he can simply say the tax breaks remain for legitimate registered companies. So if you're into BTL, you must register with companies house. That would remove all the johnny come lately's and most of the shysters from the market.

How's that 20 yard stretch of your London street holding up, Clitoris? Still convinced your house and the one either side can never fall in price? I would expect you to be having a rethink right now along the lines of 'my house, and the one on the left of it (looking from the street)'.

As for the tax break - he's going to remove it. Why wouldn't he? It's easy money. It will piss off a tiny subsection of the community who all aspire to be Tories anyway, and find great favour with all FTBs, all true Labour supporters, and anyone who has ever had to sit in a pub and listen to some arseholed git with a mewed 4x4 bang on about their 'portfolio'. The vast majority of people won't even notice. They only have the one house. In fact, if they do notice, they will regard it as a good thing. Why should THEY subsidize the smug git with the bottom end beamer?

What you are all forgetting is that he needs money, tends to take it from those who can least effectively protest, and the precedent has already been set

Tens of thousands of small legitimate companies were forced to increase the tax they pay because, in the opinion of the greasy Gay Gordon, 'the comapnies they set up were done so purely to lower their tax obligations'. It was called 'IR35' .

There is no escape for the numpty BTLers.

The overseas non-doms, of course, will be fine. They dont pay any tax anyway, so they arent claiming any back.

Edited June 24, 2007 by PropertyGuru

[South Lorne]

The overseas non-doms, of course, will be fine. They dont pay any tax anyway, so they arent claiming any back.

Like many other countries the UK should tax non doms on their UK and world wide income. Why give it all away free? That is the guaranteed way to fail in business.

GB and G Brown get on your 'thinking caps'!

[Without_a_Paddle]

As for the tax break - he's going to remove it. Why wouldn't he? It's easy money. It will piss off a tiny subsection of the community who all aspire to be Tories anyway, and find great favour with all FTBs, all true Labour supporters, and anyone who has ever had to sit in a pub and listen to some arseholed git with a mewed 4x4 bang on about their 'portfolio'. The vast majority of people won't even notice. They only have the one house. In fact, if they do notice, they will regard it as a good thing. Why should THEY subsidize the smug git with the bottom end beamer?

This is a wind up surely...

PG is effectively calling himself a tory arseholed git if you read his signature...

Also, if the vast majority of people are subsidizing BTL landlords and (from an earlier PG post) BTL landlords are subsidizing tenants then surely Gordon should simply tax the tenant?

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

This is a wind up surely...

PG is effectively calling himself a tory arseholed git if you read his signature...

If you compare his posts with those who actually have been in the BTL game I think you'll come to the conclusion that he's a pretty unlikely BTL millionaire.

This site wouldn't be the same without him though.

[thedebtisreal]

if you're into BTL, you must register with companies house. That would remove all the johnny come lately's and most of the shysters from the market.

Mmmm.... using tenancy deposit scheme perhaps.

He won't cut the tax breaks for IRs. So few BTLers make any money anyway!

I think we'll see a rebalancing of tenants rights. It's a ridiculously easy vote winner and it will have the same affect on the housing market.

[PropertyGuru]

If you compare his posts with those who actually have been in the BTL game I think you'll come to the conclusion that he's a pretty unlikely BTL millionaire.

This site wouldn't be the same without him though.

whatever, Clitoris.

Just so long as the south east er london er balham er your street er your house and the one either side er your house er the flat you own in that house never go down in price.

Face it, beared clam, you'e f*cked.

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

whatever, Clitoris.

Just so long as the south east er london er balham er your street er your house and the one either side er your house er the flat you own in that house never go down in price.

Face it, beared clam, you'e f*cked.

Not at all interested in what happens to the value of my house.

I'll be f*cked if we have a prolonged recession, as will most people in this country, and probably many people on this site.

My only interest is maintaining my level of income.

[Guest grumpy-old-man]

Not at all interested in what happens to the value of my house.

I'll be f*cked if we have a prolonged recession, as will most people in this country, and probably many people on this site.

My only interest is maintaining my level of income.

your definetly fooked then imo.

I am that sure of it that I am changing my career, a lot less money in the short term but much better longer term prospects & a pension. h'mmm not so sure about the pension, so will probably get a few btl's at the bottom of the trough.

[Levy process]

As a tax advisor, I can say right now that there is absolutely no way that the government would deny interest deductibility on mortgage payments.

It is a fundamental principle of UK tax law that any borrowing costs connected with the commercial activities of a business should be tax deductible. That principle does and will always apply to BTL landlords, and there is no rational justification for them being a special case. The interest is a real cost to them which diminishes the profit on any property.

A couple of questions: What tax is it that can have the interest offset against the taxable amount? is it personal income tax? if so, how is it that personal income tax relates to the btl business? And, what would the tax oosition be on an individual creating a business which borrowed money to buy stocks? Would it get tax relief on the interest? and if so, what tax - again would it be personal income tax?

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

your definetly fooked then imo.

I am that sure of it that I am changing my career, a lot less money in the short term but much better longer term prospects & a pension. h'mmm not so sure about the pension, so will probably get a few btl's at the bottom of the trough.

I remember you said you were getting out of IT and doing a PGCE, is that right?

Not so sure it's as recession-proof a job as you think though.

[BigAl]

It seems to me that PG is the furthest you could get from a former BTL investor. I used to be a heating engineer, and will not hear a bad word about them. I had my own shops, and I don't think "those retail muppets really are stupid for not getting out"

And if I had a few million, I certainly wouldn't put my flea-bags in for competitions, and promote them on websites, to win a million.

Back on topic, if this wet dream some of you believe in happens, what will happen to all other businesses that borrow to fund their enterprises? Are they not ripe for the picking also?

And if it did happen, what would happen to you all when the bank repo's the flat you are living in? Or at the very least, your rent goes up?

The simple fact is, being a LL is a business, whether you do it as a sole trader or a Ltd co. Business' pay tax on profits, not on turnover. End of story.

To all that harbour the grudge against LL's, we provide housing that the government can't/won't supply and we do NOT get the tax breaks you bang on about.

I think there is too much daydreaming and wishful thinking going on here. The crash you all want may well happen, but thinking up all the possible triggers and posting them on here, making tits of yourselves in the process, is just not productive.