Saidia - Vvt-6 Villa's

[fws]

That is good to hear! All credit to PL for being reasonable with this. I'm going to have a long hard think over the weekend, run off some comparisons and make a decision. I am a golfer, hence VVT8 ticks the box for me there. I'm beginning to see the best of both developments

It is reasuring to hear that Property Logic are prepared to be flexible. That, to me, shows their worth as a company.

I have been very unhappy about the VVT6 villas and how much better value they are compared with the VVT8 villas. I have been quite negative and after having spoken with Property Logic, I am much happier and hereby publicly apologise for my negativity as I now believe that they are dealing with this very fairly.

More importantly, I have been emailed about the upgraded clubhouse facilities which are comparable with those elsewhere. These include 2 restaurants and bars, a Moroccan lounge, indoor/outdoor swimming pool, mini-market, solarium, gymnasium, spa, games room and internet connection in the clubhouse. There is also a sports field, amphitheatre, bar and mini-golf / putting green.

This makes a huge difference to us as a place to holiday regularly and to the perceived value of VVT8 to holiday-makers and I am much happier now. I think this is great news and should make us all feel much more positive about the choice we made.

[dogbox]

FWS, your past posts indicate your dissatisfaction with the property sizes, designs and prices.

Where are you now, on these issue?

[Sean]

FWS, it is very refreshing to read your views and for you to honestly state your opinion and then change it and change it again. I do mean that. Most people tend to stick to their opinion and defend long after they may have changed their mind. Also there is no reason for you to apologise as we are all just giving our opinions and sometimes the feelings are strong - especially when there is money involved. Its good news that PL are improving facilities for investors and doing a bit of charm offensive with the interview. The early investors, like you, are taking the risks here and if things work out well, you deserve the profits - and I will happily take my holidays at Saidia, being a 4-handicapper!

[The Soup Dragon]

FWS. Glad to hear you are happier now. Have you made decision to stick with VVT8?

You mentioned the improved club house facilities. Did PL mention anything about them being part of the planning application that they submitted and have verbally received confirmation of acceptance on? Do you have any more info on the mini market? I'm not keen on having one, but if its simply a small shop like you get in some hotel lobbies then that's fine.

[fws]

FWS. Glad to hear you are happier now. Have you made decision to stick with VVT8?

You mentioned the improved club house facilities. Did PL mention anything about them being part of the planning application that they submitted and have verbally received confirmation of acceptance on? Do you have any more info on the mini market? I'm not keen on having one, but if its simply a small shop like you get in some hotel lobbies then that's fine.

Hi Soup

I don't know the details I'm afraid. I think the mini-market is a great idea. Even assuming most people eat out, to have somewhere on site for milk, bread, drinks etc is a real bonus - likewise restaurants, gym, spa on site rather than having to walk - catch a bus etc. These are the things which make a holiday so much easier

I still think the design, size and prices of VVT6 are better value, but the facilities are comparable so each site will appeal to a different market.

[dogbox]

FWS

Yes, I agree about the sites appealing to different markets - its been my position that the golf villas will appeal more to golfers.

People say the VVT6 villas will have a wider audience but Im not so sure. Golfers are a numerous species and for them to have a villa set right into the golf fairways is quite an attraction I would have thought. Many such villas in Spain but not on a beach resort - this is the key for me.

More people form the general population might on balance prefer the properties closer to the beach BUT (and this is crucial) there are lots of properties in the Med this distance from a beach, but surely fewer proper golf properties in the Med that have a beach as part of the same resort?

I just saw an image for a beachclub in Saidia - pretty stunning and unusual. This Saidia journey is a bit of roller coaster ride for us early investors but I have the feeling we are on to something special here.

[Nitrode]

I just saw an image for a beachclub in Saidia - pretty stunning and unusual. This Saidia journey is a bit of roller coaster ride for us early investors but I have the feeling we are on to something special here.

Dogbox, can you post a link to this image on the site? It would be good to view it.

[Cole Trickle]

Thes is good news for VVT8 purchasers, however thes is the first I have heard of it. Why has PL not made this information available to all?

I have a reserved a villa on VVT8 and my colleague has reserved an apartment on RT7. Will the same upgraded facilities apply to RT7 also? I don't think the RT7 owners will take kindly to preferential treatment for villa owners only. I hope PL will extend the same courtesy to its apartment purchasers? The RT7 apartments are not beach nor golf, so any additional facilities will benefit them greatly when it comes to rental.

[rorypops]

hi. I haven't posted on these forums for some time now, mainly because I am of the opinion that I have made my purchase, am happy with what I bought (first floor apartment on RT7) and have not felt the need to re-visit my investment. I do read the forums, mainly because I enjoy the discussions that take place, and, up until now have not felt the need to contribute.

Am I correct however, in saying that VVT8 have now had their facilities upgraded? Does the upgrade extend to RT7 owners?

[fws]

[There's a newsletter due out shortly which will give details of all the facilities available. Let's give PL time to get that information together before speculating further. Thanks. I'm sure all the clubhouses will be similar

[rorypops]

[There's a newsletter due out shortly which will give details of all the facilities available. Let's give PL time to get that information together before speculating further. Thanks. I'm sure all the clubhouses will be similar

We can't be sure of anything until it's in writing from PL.

[Cole Trickle]

I have been very unhappy about the VVT6 villas and how much better value they are compared with the VVT8 villas. I have been quite negative and after having spoken with Property Logic, I am much happier and hereby publicly apologise for my negativity as I now believe that they are dealing with this very fairly.

More importantly, I have been emailed about the upgraded clubhouse facilities which are comparable with those elsewhere. These include 2 restaurants and bars, a Moroccan lounge, indoor/outdoor swimming pool, mini-market, solarium, gymnasium, spa, games room and internet connection in the clubhouse. There is also a sports field, amphitheatre, bar and mini-golf / putting green.

This makes a huge difference to us as a place to holiday regularly and to the perceived value of VVT8 to holiday-makers and I am much happier now. I think this is great news and should make us all feel much more positive about the choice we made.

With all due respect, there es no need to publicly apologise for any negativity. One should not back track on the real reason that you caused the concern just because it is now going in your favour.

One last thought - who is paying for the additional facilities?? Will this reflect on poorer furnishings etc...........PL will not have budgeted for this so thes is a concern for me.

[Splat The Cat]

Some months ago I spoke to a travel agent whose company specialises in villas in the Algarve. He said to me that golfers prefer to stay in hotels. It is families that rent the villas. I have just spent a long weekend at Hotel Quinta Do Lago and it was full..... of golfers!

[The Soup Dragon]

Splat the Cat. I agree, most golfers that are going on golfing holidays do prefer hotels or self catering apartments - especially near the 19th hole. But that's groups of men that are happy to share 3 or 4 to a 1 bed apartment to keep costs down - after all, the digs are just somewhere to crash. They want to be able to dump their bags after a couple of rounds then hit the bars. Accomodation for them should be very close to golf and also near other facilities.

The golf villas (VVT8 and similar) should appeal to the wealther golfers that are looking for an investment come holiday home for their family. Many will be looking for something a little removed from the herds where they will have more privacy and space to enjoy their holiday. This is what I see as the target market for the VVT8 villas once Saidia is on the map.

[Splat The Cat]

Splat the Cat. I agree, most golfers that are going on golfing holidays do prefer hotels or self catering apartments - especially near the 19th hole. But that's groups of men that are happy to share 3 or 4 to a 1 bed apartment to keep costs down - after all, the digs are just somewhere to crash. They want to be able to dump their bags after a couple of rounds then hit the bars. Accomodation for them should be very close to golf and also near other facilities.

The golf villas (VVT8 and similar) should appeal to the wealther golfers that are looking for an investment come holiday home for their family. Many will be looking for something a little removed from the herds where they will have more privacy and space to enjoy their holiday. This is what I see as the target market for the VVT8 villas once Saidia is on the map.

You are probably right about the groups of golfing men looking to keep costs down and crashing in an apartment. But Quinta do Lago Hotel is very expensive (350 euro a night) and it was full of very classy looking golfers - of a certain age I might add, an equal number of 'ladies and gentlemen'. The hotel in Vale Do Lobo must be the same. This type of person chooses to stay in expensive hotels where they do not need to lift a finger and like luxury and being close to the amenities. They don't want to be fixing their own breakfast!

I think the target market for the golfing villas is families where the keen golfer gets the casting vote on accomodation.

[dogbox]

A hundred or so golf villas (set into the actual golf ranges) available for rent is not a lot of supply when you consider Saidia aims to attract 30,000 visitors per week in high season.

Plenty of golf widows will 'compromise' allowing hubby to take a golf villa as long as the family also have plenty else to do which is what Saidia is all about.

We always chose villas and struggle greatly to find detatched property with own pools in places like Sardinia (a massive island) and Menorca, close to the beach for anything under £1500 per week.

For example we booked a very modest villa in Sardinia this year - not in the posh part but down South, miles from the airport and very basic, with no golf or ammenities. Even though we booked last year nearly everything was already booked up.

In my view there is a shortage of detatched own pool near the beach villas and as such rents are very high.

The mistake people make is comparing chavy, miton keynes down market villas for example in the mass 'all u can eat buffet / chavvy Elvis Pressly night' type developments in Spain or Arenal in Menorca where the staple food is frozen Pizza and chips. This is a totaly different market where you can rent a 'villa' for £500 per week.

I DONT KNOW WHAT THE RENTAL FOR VVT8 WILL BE BUT MY GUESS IS THAT BY 2011 WE MIGHT BE LOOKING AT £850 PER WEEK IN HIGH SEASON, BUT THERE ARE CLUES OUT THERE WHICH INDICATE THIS FIGURE COULD BE HIGHER.

I absolutly do not agree tourists viewing these villas in a brochure will expect to pay much less rent than for Spain. Saidia will be marketed as a unique fairly high end resort "where the premiership footballers stay enmass".

[catara]

I DONT KNOW WHAT THE RENTAL FOR VVT8 WILL BE BUT MY GUESS IS THAT BY 2011 WE MIGHT BE LOOKING AT £850 PER WEEK IN HIGH SEASON, BUT THERE ARE CLUES OUT THERE WHICH INDICATE THIS FIGURE COULD BE HIGHER.

So now you think that by screaming you can be more convincing, right? There are also clues that the figure might me much lower.

[Sean]

Dogbox, £850 gross per week in 2011 in high season after management fees of 20%, annual servicing of £2000 and 10 weeks of rental gives £4800. This would support an £80,000 interest only mortgage at 6%. You may top up the rental in off season but, basically, its a terrible return when compared against the purphase price. On your early purchase price (£170k ignoring expenses?) the net running yield is under 3% and this is calculated using a 2011 rental against 2006 price. The rental needs to be a lot better than this for there to be a secondary market anywhere near what you paid - unless investors purchase with very low amounts of leverage.

[catara]

Dogbox, £850 gross per week in 2011 in high season after management fees of 20%, annual servicing of £2000 and 10 weeks of rental gives £4800. This would support an £80,000 interest only mortgage at 6%. You may top up the rental in off season but, basically, its a terrible return when compared against the purphase price. On your early purchase price (£170k ignoring expenses?) the net running yield is under 3% and this is calculated using a 2011 rental against 2006 price. The rental needs to be a lot better than this for there to be a secondary market anywhere near what you paid - unless investors purchase with very low amounts of leverage.

Well, by 2011 Dogbox villa will cost Half a million Pounds so he will get the £340K and be happy with it. Or won't he?

[dogbox]

Dogbox, £850 gross per week in 2011 in high season after management fees of 20%, annual servicing of £2000 and 10 weeks of rental gives £4800. This would support an £80,000 interest only mortgage at 6%. You may top up the rental in off season but, basically, its a terrible return when compared against the purphase price. On your early purchase price (£170k ignoring expenses?) the net running yield is under 3% and this is calculated using a 2011 rental against 2006 price. The rental needs to be a lot better than this for there to be a secondary market anywhere near what you paid - unless investors purchase with very low amounts of leverage.

10 weeks rental you say.

Saidia is designed to capture the year round market. They specifically wanted to avoid the Spannish ghost town scenario during off season period.

I would never have invested in an ordinary property with a 10 week season, I specifically set myself the goal of finding something with year round potential.

Sean this goes right back to my earliest posts. The 11 hotel operators (2 of which are owned by airlines) are looking for year round attraction here. Again the resort is non weather dependant - I wont bore you again as to why this might be.

Think about it like this;

You are planning a few days away in Decemeber. You can go to a Spannish resort but its a bit depressing as its pretty much shut down, or you can go to all encompassing thriving leisure zone like Saidia. Again you cant compare to say Polaris world - the scale and breadth of attractions are incomparable.

[vered]

Dogbox, £850 gross per week in 2011 in high season after management fees of 20%, annual servicing of £2000 and 10 weeks of rental gives £4800. This would support an £80,000 interest only mortgage at 6%. You may top up the rental in off season but, basically, its a terrible return when compared against the purphase price. On your early purchase price (£170k ignoring expenses?) the net running yield is under 3% and this is calculated using a 2011 rental against 2006 price. The rental needs to be a lot better than this for there to be a secondary market anywhere near what you paid - unless investors purchase with very low amounts of leverage.

It really depends on how popular / successful the development is. With a summer property I own, I would be very unhappy with 10 weeks rental and expect closer to 13 weeks, with a top end rental season of 15-16 weeks. Bearing in mind that (if successful) the development should at least benefit from some Christmas/ Easter rentals plus a bit more you could quite easily be looking at 20 weeks rental, supporting a £190k loan on your calculation, or potentially more.

If it's a flop - well, 10 weeks might be a stretch and you'd make a loss.

As many of the investors have already admitted - it's a risk and we'll have to see how it develops.