The Problems With Atheism

Sledgehead · March 22, 2007

Point taken here sledgehead I shudn't of given this as an answer - should have said this is one theory
and I cannot prove that the criteria for being chosen is to believe in God any more than I can prove that the criteria for being chosen is not to belive in him

No worries j, you gave me cause to revisit some thoughts I've had b4 on creators.

but If I created something wonderful -I would want to get the credit for it - I would be hoping mad if I created something and ohers came along and said it accidently came into being from a whole load of nothing
but of course that is my reaction - and cannot prove what what Gods reaction would be based on my own feelings

Setting aside your and my caveat of us not being divine ( in a religious sense LOL ), I do have some pseudo-experience of "creating" "life". I used to prog AI for a games developer. It occurs to me that whilst I would have been pretty mad had somebody else laid claim to my "creations", I would have been only amused had the ai creations claimed nothing had created them. I also believe I would not have been any happier had one creation claimed another was his creator. Had any of the ai creations decided spontaneously to determine the nature of their existence by experimentation, logic and reason, I would have been over the moon. Whether it be solely a mortal characteristic or not, there is something incredibly attractive about creating something with a mind of its own. As such I ask you to consider this: if we must think of god in our own image, imagine being all alone in the universe. You create beings only to find that most of them are simply Yes men. Then one of them comes along who has a mind of his own and needs to work things out to be satisfied. Who are you gonna burn? LOL!

ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere · March 22, 2007

Rather than rehash all the tired old arguements about evolution yet again, let's look at this from a different perspective. Firstly, does anybody know where the creation story in the bible actually comes from and what its original significance was? If not, have a shufty at this.

Secondly, we can show quite easily that it is possible to change the fundamental nature of living things quite easily. I've got a Yorkshire terrier as a pet. Have there always been Yorkshire terriers or has their nature changed over time? Why when I bombard bacteria with UV radiation do some develop resistance to antibiotics that wasn't there before? Why are people worried about bird flu? Where did AIDS or MRSA come from? If we can show that just one living thing is capable of evolving or changing, the next question then becomes "what is so special about humans that they do not evolve or change in any way?". We share the same basic biochemistry as every other living thing on the planet (and if that's not evidence for some kind of common ancestor I don't know what is) so why should every other living thing on the planet be subject to change and not us? People are keen to rubbish evolution but I have never seen a single compelling piece of evidence which disproves the idea beyond some people's interpretation of a passage in the bible which is of somewhat dubious origin.

Aside:

Stacey: Firstly, I would love to know what Kent Hovind, as a christian science evangalist would actually consider to be proof. Secondly, I asked you what you you think we need to do to become closer to God. I'd love to hear your answer if you wouldn't mind.

Sledgehead: I haven't forgotten about the questions you asked me yesterday but I'm having a biatch of a week and would like to think very carefully about my answer. I'll get back to you some time over the weekend 'K?

Sledgehead · March 22, 2007

Sledgehead: I haven't forgotten about the questions you asked me yesterday but I'm having a biatch of a week and would like to think very carefully about my answer. I'll get back to you some time over the weekend 'K?

Take your time, and perhaps I should add, I'm not interested in being adversarial with you on this matter, so don't worry if you brain dump and need to rethink etc. You've obviously thought a great deal about these matters and I sense you have no axe to grind, just a desire to find some semblance of an answer.

ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere · March 22, 2007

Take your time, and perhaps I should add, I'm not interested in being adversarial with you on this matter, so don't worry if you brain dump and need to rethink etc. You've obviously thought a great deal about these matters and I sense you have no axe to grind, just a desire to find some semblance of an answer.

I'd like to talk about this stuff some more when I'm not up to my eyeballs in marking and bloody lesson planning but in the meantime have a read of this and this. Both are texts written by Gnostic Christians (please don't let that last word put you off!) describing the process of the creation of the universe. They need to be read very carefully and it is very important to remember that they are not to be taken literally. Essentially they are an attempt to explain the process whereby the universe goes from the infinite, timeless perfection of - I was going to say God but even the Gnostics don't really like to use that term - the Creator to the flawed, imperfect and temporary reality which we currently inhabit. Both texts are kind of an attempt to describe a vision somebody had two millenia ago about the process whereby conciousness is created, what the mind really is and what we mean by ressurection and salvation. Again, please to not simply take them at face value.

To try to understand what they are trying to say, it's probably worth explaining what some of the names of the various deities mean. Sophia is translated literally as Wisdom; Pistis is Faith; the Logos is Mind or the first, perfect human being and Barbello is the original feminine aspect or counterpart to the nameless Creator. Yaltabaoth/Samael is the blind, mad God who rules the physical world and who many religions mistakenly worship. You can find most of the rest here. If you can read either one from start to finish without getting a headache I'll be impressed.

There is more about Gnosis in general here including a brief description of what it actually is and some introductory essays. There's a rather interesting one about Genesis here.

The best way to understand about deluded states of mind that I have found is in the teachings of Buddhism and Buddha Dharma. Buddhism teaches that the true cause of all suffering is found in delusions of the mind and provides some fantastic advice on how to achieve a calmer, happier and more productive mind.

The refreshing thing about both Buddhism and Gnosticism is that neither requires the practitioner to compel him or her self to construct artificial belief structures in the manner of many types of Christianity and both can simply be regarded as attempts to understand the mind and the state of human existance in more detail.

Better go and finish my work for tomorrow now.

Laters.

jackster1 · March 23, 2007

No worries j, you gave me cause to revisit some thoughts I've had b4 on creators.
Setting aside your and my caveat of us not being divine ( in a religious sense LOL ), I do have some pseudo-experience of "creating" "life". I used to prog AI for a games developer. It occurs to me that whilst I would have been pretty mad had somebody else laid claim to my "creations", I would have been only amused had the ai creations claimed nothing had created them. I also believe I would not have been any happier had one creation claimed another was his creator. Had any of the ai creations decided spontaneously to determine the nature of their existence by experimentation, logic and reason, I would have been over the moon. Whether it be solely a mortal characteristic or not, there is something incredibly attractive about creating something with a mind of its own. As such I ask you to consider this: if we must think of god in our own image, imagine being all alone in the universe. You create beings only to find that most of them are simply Yes men. Then one of them comes along who has a mind of his own and needs to work things out to be satisfied. Who are you gonna burn? LOL!

Lmao I'm not even goin to let on I know what the word Caveat means - nor am I going to look up the dictionary - maybe later

Yes it would be laughabele to you or indeed me If we created AI and it claimed that nothing had created them - can't determine what God should he exist would make of it all though.

when you say that u wouldn't be any happier if one creation claimed another was his creator, do you mean that the AI claimed another AI was his creator or do you mean that the AI claimed that a different type of creation was his creator - (not picking holes here, just makin sure I have the jist right )

re what you have asked me to consider - I would be very happy if one or more of my creations came along and wanted to work things out (for his/her own sanity if nothing else) - I wouldn't be happy though if they came to the wrong conlusion ie if they searched for the reason for the creation of their existance and decided that they were created out of nothing by nothing

I have thought alot about christianity and atheism and my personal feeling is that christians do not want to and refuse to believe that they were created by chance out of nothing

likewise atheists do not want to or refuse to believe that there is a god that is ready to judge them and send them to hell

Each idea is so repulsive to each type

I mention these two types mainly because these are the two main explanations that are given for our existance and as yet there is no physical proof for either

Ever wonder why we ask ourselves how did we come into being?? would like to hear your views as to why you think we ask ourselves that question

Sledgehead · March 23, 2007

when you say that u wouldn't be any happier if one creation claimed another was his creator, do you mean that the AI claimed another AI was his creator

yeah, sorry, that was my meaning. I think my compound sentences have finally grown beyond my capability to make them intelligible. Note to self : keep it short!

Ever wonder why we ask ourselves how did we come into being?? would like to hear your views as to why you think we ask ourselves that question

Cos otherwise it all seems so damn fruitless LOL!

Sledgehead · March 23, 2007

I'd like to talk about this stuff some more when I'm not up to my eyeballs in marking and bloody lesson planning but in the meantime have a read of this and this. ...
Laters.

Cheers. You probably sense how averse I am to most things spiritual, so I'm guessing it won't be my cup of tea, but seeing as you have taken the time to point me, I'll try to find the time and motivation.

jackster1 · March 23, 2007

yeah, sorry, that was my meaning. I think my compound sentences have finally grown beyond my capability to make them intelligible. Note to self : keep it short!
Cos otherwise it all seems so damn fruitless LOL!

Well keep searching - hope you come up with an answer that you can be satisfied with

I'm happy with the conclusion I've come to - but one size doesn't fit all lol

liquid · March 23, 2007

You probably sense how averse I am to most things spiritual,....

Did you mean all things spiritual or are there some things spiritual that you don’t have an aversion to?

stacey777 · March 23, 2007

See, you did know the answer after all.
Now, how does one become closer to God?

BTW, that grid thing works like this. Either God exists or he doesn't. Either we believe in God or we don't. If we believe in God and God exists we go to heaven. If we believe in God and he doesn't exist then what have we lost? If we don't believe in God and God doesn't exist then it doesn't matter and if we don't believe in God and God exists we go to hell. The arguement goes that out of the four different combinations of belief/non-belief and existance/non-existance of God three out of the four result in posative or at least non-negative consequences for us.

It is however a deeply flawed arguement because it fails to address what God actually is. For example, we can say that it is better to believe in a God, but which God? Supposing Christianity is wrong and Islaam is the true religion. By becomming christians we would be consigning ourselves to hell.

We can not be close to God period until we firstly submit ourselves to God and throw ourselves at his grace and repent of our sins and give our lives to him. If we confess our sins he is faithfull and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrightousness. It says in psalms that " if i regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me" However once we have come to the knowledge of salvation through grace alone by faith alone in christ alone it is then we can begin to know the person. Who christ is can I say i have found him to be a father, a friend, master, mighty king, brother, Lord, saviour, redemmer, counsellor, lovely, perfect, just, merciful, full of grace, patient, kind, obediant in his death, Holy, fearful, strong, creator, forgiving, these are just some of the things I know about God but it wont be until i reach heaven that i will really know him.

I have grown to know the Lord Jesus Christ by tusting him as saviour. He has kept me as his from that day 10 years ago. I ave got to know him through the study and teaching of his word and how he has dealt with me in life from i have been a christian. I have seen answers to prayers through the 10 years i have known him and he never ever fails.

scarlets79 · March 23, 2007

Evolution can't be proven because it's a huge hoax.

Stacey, your posts are wonderful. Why people have such a problem with Jesus Christ I just do not know.

ImA20SomethingGetMeOutOfHere · March 24, 2007

Evolution can't be proven because it's a huge hoax.

Why?

Where does the christian creation myth come from and why is it such a better explanation?

jackster1 · March 24, 2007

hello folks there is an interesting program on UCB sky channel 766 today and repeated tomorrow at 3pm - Its called Life's story and it compares the proof for evolution and the proof for inteligant design

jackster1 · March 24, 2007

Evolution can't be proven because it's a huge hoax.
Stacey, your posts are wonderful. Why people have such a problem with Jesus Christ I just do not know.

hello scarlet

how would you feel if someone came on this forumn and just said Christianity was a big hoax - your statement is too broad and too general and makes me think that you are more concerned with arguing with these people for the sake of argument - rather than winning souls for christ

Your salvation is not of your own doing, and it is only because God has opened your eyes that you can believe that God is real that he sent his son to die to pay the price for your sin and that because you accept christ as saviour you will escape eternity in Hell

There are people on here that are genuinely seeking for answers as to how they were created and what is the purpose of their lives - you would do better to pray that God opens these peoples eyes and let him reveal to them that evolution is not credible rather than getting peoples backs up

scarlets79 · March 24, 2007

hello scarlet
how would you feel if someone came on this forumn and just said Christianity was a big hoax - your statement is too broad and too general and makes me think that you are more concerned with arguing with these people for the sake of argument - rather than winning souls for christ

Your salvation is not of your own doing, and it is only because God has opened your eyes that you can believe that God is real that he sent his son to die to pay the price for your sin and that because you accept christ as saviour you will escape eternity in Hell

There are people on here that are genuinely seeking for answers as to how they were created and what is the purpose of their lives - you would do better to pray that God opens these peoples eyes and let him reveal to them that evolution is not credible rather than getting peoples backs up

People come on here and in other places saying Christianity is a big hoax all the time, I get used to it.

I do pray for those people, but am afraid that the evolution lie must be challenged head on. I don't understand why you are attacking me for saying evolution is a hoax- it is my belief, I have many reasons for coming to this view and not just bibilicall, but I don't see why I have to write a book to justify this view every time I choose to express it. There can be no compatibility between evolution over billions of years and God's creation account. People are falling for so-called scientists's version of evolution, which is both unverifiable and unobservable, yet are rejecting God's account out of hand. Christians have given in too much and it's time to take a stand. The evolutionary worldview is destroying our society and Christians have been sweeping it under the carpet for too long.

jackster1 · March 24, 2007

People come on here and in other places saying Christianity is a big hoax all the time, I get used to it.
I do pray for those people, but am afraid that the evolution lie must be challenged head on. I don't understand why you are attacking me for saying evolution is a hoax- it is my belief, I have many reasons for coming to this view and not just bibilicall, but I don't see why I have to write a book to justify this view every time I choose to express it. There can be no compatibility between evolution over billions of years and God's creation account. People are falling for so-called scientists's version of evolution, which is both unverifiable and unobservable, yet are rejecting God's account out of hand. Christians have given in too much and it's time to take a stand. The evolutionary worldview is destroying our society and Christians have been sweeping it under the carpet for too long.

Scarlet I am not attacking you - and its fine to say that its you belief that evlolution is a big hoax - but what you said was that evolution was a big hoax - not that this was your belief

I'm sure that you have many reasons for coming to this conclusion as do I but without Gods hand you or I would never of been saved

Of course there is no compatibility between the two accounts and as I said when I began to post here that to argue over each others beliefs would never result in one changing the others mind

Have all christians been sweeping this view under the carpet??? I think that you are generalising to much here again

I don't believe in Evolution - in fact I think it is a ridulous idea - but I didn't always think this. I had to search till the conclision I came to was satisfactory to me and I praise God for it

meeting evolution head on by just throwing out general comments will not make peole less likley to fall for the scientists belief in evolution it is merely going to antagognise people and they would rather argue against you than search for the truth

and if you have the view that atheists do it so i get used to it and do it back - things will just continue to go round in circles

but this is just my belief/view on the matter - you are entirely entitled to believe that the way you meet evolution head on is right - but can either of us say that one of us is right and the other is wrong? u can believe that u are right and i am wrong, but that doesn't necisarrily mean that you are right and I am wrong nor does it mean that i am right and you are wrong

jackster1 · March 24, 2007