Bitcoin Mining Giants starting to shut down,

[Staffsknot]

4 hours ago, sackot said:

I feel as though I'm slowly making progress, we've gone from impossible to niche novelty...

My version of the conversation:
@scottbeard: unlikely that bitcoin will be useful to buy a sandwich.
@sackot: I buy coffee, icecream, crepes, and sandwiches in local outlets with bitcoin.
@staffknot: Impossible, it's not legal tender! No retailer would accept it! You were using a gift
card and did not understand!
@sackot: I used a contactless card from Coincorner, it transfers bitcoin directly from my wallet to
theirs via Lightning. Here is a map of retailers currently accepting the Coincorner card.
@staffknot: No genuine business would ever do this, because AML. No one I asked uses it. It's a
massive niche novelty atm.

Yes, its a novelty atm. You said yourself the card was only released earlier this year, what do you
expect... I'm lucky that there are dozens of outlets within 20 miles of me, but that is not true in
most places.

One advantage for retailers is that it is cheaper than VISA. This could lead to wider adoption.

Now, let's look at the first bit, AML.
> Basically you need transaction transparency or where funds magically appear from in your accounts blows Ts & Cs of any genuine business account. 

If this were true, no retailer would accept cash. Retailers do accept cash. I don't know for sure
how the rules work, but my understanding is that a business is perfectly free to accept cash/other
non-AML payment, but obliged to report any transaction they deem suspicious. They're not
going to do that for a three pound coffee, and why would they, what are they going to say?

I don't think you understand the concept of AML - cash under a certain value is taken as compliant but records need to be kept of sales, etc...

However if you take a payment in non-legal tender you need greater scrutiny and record keeping. Electronic payments are also recorded as part of ongoing anti-fraud and AML efforts.

One of the old money laundering tricks used to be barber shops - low level integration of proceeds of crime. 

Now any meaningful business taking a payment via BTC needs an electronic trail as effectively you are paying an invoice and just like if you paid in Euros instead there comes with it extra scrutiny.

I cannot discuss AML in depth with you as that violates AML rules itself. But at any point it can be flagged as a suspicious payment and needs explaining. Using non-legal tender is one of those red flags.

Electronic transactions are more regulated than cash due to the risk of fraud. Large sums of cash are not permitted in many purchases ( car for instance) due to AML and tracability.

Your payment will have converted to GBP as you cannot have a business account in non-legal tender.

They would have to transfer again to their own business account otherwise to show the sale in their business account matching the sales receipts.

Multiple payments of this nature would flag

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Staffsknot

[sackot]

20 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

I don't think you understand the concept of AML - cash under a certain value is taken as compliant but records need to be kept of sales, etc...

However if you take a payment in non-legal tender you need greater scrutiny and record keeping. Electronic payments are also recorded as part of ongoing anti-fraud and AML efforts.

One of the old money laundering tricks used to be barber shops - low level integration of proceeds of crime. 

Now any meaningful business taking a payment via BTC needs an electronic trail as effectively you are paying an invoice and just like if you paid in Euros instead there comes with it extra scrutiny.

I cannot discuss AML in depth with you as that violates AML rules itself. But at any point it can be flagged as a suspicious payment and needs explaining. Using non-legal tender is one of those red flags.

Electronic transactions are more regulated than cash due to the risk of fraud. Large sums of cash are not permitted in many purchases ( car for instance) due to AML and tracability.

Your payment will have converted to GBP as you cannot have a business account in non-legal tender.

They would have to transfer again to their own business account otherwise to show the sale in their business account matching the sales receipts.

Multiple payments of this nature would flag

 

I'm in the position of having an elephant standing in front of me, while you continue to insist that an elephant can't, and never will, exist. I try to analyze your reason for believing this, but notwithstanding the outcome, the elephant continues to stand there anyway.

You say that no real or proper business could accept bitcoin because the AML regulations would then preclude them from having a business bank account (I think).

If I pretend that I'm a coffee shop thinking of using Coincorner checkout to accept BTC, and I look through your objections, I see no impediment.

You say I'd have to keep proper records. Of course. All businesses have to keep proper records. It would be easier with BTC than cash.

You say I'd have to comply with AML provisions that I'm not allowed to know. Well, I can't comment on that.

You say that I'd have to convert to pounds. Of course; my suppliers will have to be paid from a sterling account. Coincorner will do that automatically and I still come out ahead on fees.

Maybe I'm missing something, so let's admire the elephant:

I told you that dozens of businesses close to me accept the contactless bitcoin card. They are 'proper' businesses. With the exception of a mobile fast food van, they have bricks and mortar, mostly on the high street. They will be companies and have bank accounts.

I anticipate you might say that it's the Isle of Man and different, so let's look at London, where you said you were looking yourself.

Sharps Pixley, bullion dealer Est. 1066 etc etc, accept bitcoin. I can see the advantage for them, they will charge 4-5% over spot for bullion, so the less of that they lose to bank charges the better. I quote from their website-

"Clients can also purchase gold bars and coins using cryptocurrencies at the Sharps Pixley bullion shop at 54 St James Street. This is especially useful for smaller transactions and provides you with the opportunity to browse all our bullion products."

You can't possibly claim that they are not a proper company or don't have a bank account. I anticipate that you might say that bullion companies are a special case because they already have strict KYC/AML in place. So let's look at 'normal' companies:

Go to
https://btcmap.org/map
and navigate to London. You didn't say where you are, so I just clicked on a random place in central London. Eight outlets near my click, including two cafes, a jeweller in Hatton Garden, a vet and a music venue. I was pleased see the the venue already accepts contactless. If I'm quick I can go and see Taylor Swift. These are not self-employed pavement artists, or something. Every one will be a Ltd (or LLP for the vet) with an accountant, company returns and a business bank account.

I'm citing hard evidence not vague assertions, while you just sit there and claim my comments are "well balls". 
 

[Staffsknot]

23 minutes ago, sackot said:

I'm in the position of having an elephant standing in front of me, while you continue to insist that an elephant can't, and never will, exist. I try to analyze your reason for believing this, but notwithstanding the outcome, the elephant continues to stand there anyway.

You say that no real or proper business could accept bitcoin because the AML regulations would then preclude them from having a business bank account (I think).

If I pretend that I'm a coffee shop thinking of using Coincorner checkout to accept BTC, and I look through your objections, I see no impediment.

You say I'd have to keep proper records. Of course. All businesses have to keep proper records. It would be easier with BTC than cash.

You say I'd have to comply with AML provisions that I'm not allowed to know. Well, I can't comment on that.

You say that I'd have to convert to pounds. Of course; my suppliers will have to be paid from a sterling account. Coincorner will do that automatically and I still come out ahead on fees.

Maybe I'm missing something, so let's admire the elephant:

I told you that dozens of businesses close to me accept the contactless bitcoin card. They are 'proper' businesses. With the exception of a mobile fast food van, they have bricks and mortar, mostly on the high street. They will be companies and have bank accounts.

I anticipate you might say that it's the Isle of Man and different, so let's look at London, where you said you were looking yourself.

Sharps Pixley, bullion dealer Est. 1066 etc etc, accept bitcoin. I can see the advantage for them, they will charge 4-5% over spot for bullion, so the less of that they lose to bank charges the better. I quote from their website-

"Clients can also purchase gold bars and coins using cryptocurrencies at the Sharps Pixley bullion shop at 54 St James Street. This is especially useful for smaller transactions and provides you with the opportunity to browse all our bullion products."

You can't possibly claim that they are not a proper company or don't have a bank account. I anticipate that you might say that bullion companies are a special case because they already have strict KYC/AML in place. So let's look at 'normal' companies:

Go to
https://btcmap.org/map
and navigate to London. You didn't say where you are, so I just clicked on a random place in central London. Eight outlets near my click, including two cafes, a jeweller in Hatton Garden, a vet and a music venue. I was pleased see the the venue already accepts contactless. If I'm quick I can go and see Taylor Swift. These are not self-employed pavement artists, or something. Every one will be a Ltd (or LLP for the vet) with an accountant, company returns and a business bank account.

I'm citing hard evidence not vague assertions, while you just sit there and claim my comments are "well balls". 
 

That they haven't received it in btc its no different than me saying I'll pay with my GBP credit card to someone in Euros - I pay GBP but the bank or in this case CoinCorner is converting it to GBP. They don't pay the retailer BTC they GBP to their business account.

This is the bit you don't get your transactions have to go to the business account and that cannot be in BTC.

Its pretty simple - I'm looking at a horse and you are shouting zebra.

[sackot]

59 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

That they haven't received it in btc its no different than me saying I'll pay with my GBP credit card to someone in Euros - I pay GBP but the bank or in this case CoinCorner is converting it to GBP. They don't pay the retailer BTC they GBP to their business account.

This is the bit you don't get your transactions have to go to the business account and that cannot be in BTC.

Its pretty simple - I'm looking at a horse and you are shouting zebra.

No, that's not a correct analogy.

With my bitcoin card, bitcoin flows from my wallet to the retailer's wallet. The retailer chooses to immediately convert it to pounds, but that's of no interest to me. I get my coffee.

The correct analogy with euros would be if I were a tourist sitting in a hotel with a pile of euro notes. If I go out and see only "pounds accepted here" that is of no use to me. If I go out, see "euros accepted here", it gladdens my heart and I can walk into a cafe, hand over a note and come out with coffee.

The situation you offer instead requires the tourist to hold their euros in a euro bank which gives them a card, and when they go to the cafe, their own bank will convert the money, charging them a (probably excessive) fee to do so.

Now mirror that back into the bitcoin case. The bitcoiner would have to hold their bitcoin in some exchange which had an attached VISA card (they exist). After all the recent "crypto" nonsense, even a non-bitcoiner ought to be able to see why that's a bad bad idea, and totally antithetical to the whole point of bitcoin.

When retailers accept bitcoin, the win for me is that I get to use my self-custodied bitcoin as native money (from my point of view). The win for the retailer is that it's cheaper than VISA. They and I are happy, and you, meanwhile, just don't care (but that's up to you).

[Staffsknot]

24 minutes ago, sackot said:

No, that's not a correct analogy.

With my bitcoin card, bitcoin flows from my wallet to the retailer's wallet. The retailer chooses to immediately convert it to pounds, but that's of no interest to me. I get my coffee.

The correct analogy with euros would be if I were a tourist sitting in a hotel with a pile of euro notes. If I go out and see only "pounds accepted here" that is of no use to me. If I go out, see "euros accepted here", it gladdens my heart and I can walk into a cafe, hand over a note and come out with coffee.

The situation you offer instead requires the tourist to hold their euros in a euro bank which gives them a card, and when they go to the cafe, their own bank will convert the money, charging them a (probably excessive) fee to do so.

Now mirror that back into the bitcoin case. The bitcoiner would have to hold their bitcoin in some exchange which had an attached VISA card (they exist). After all the recent "crypto" nonsense, even a non-bitcoiner ought to be able to see why that's a bad bad idea, and totally antithetical to the whole point of bitcoin.

When retailers accept bitcoin, the win for me is that I get to use my self-custodied bitcoin as native money (from my point of view). The win for the retailer is that it's cheaper than VISA. They and I are happy, and you, meanwhile, just don't care (but that's up to you).

Nope you can pay with your GBP credit card and are charged for the conversion. Or some do it as a 'freebie' and have their own forex coversion values.

You do not pay the retailer in GBP but you have been charged effectively a conversion to Euros. They get Euros you pay your card charge in GBP.

The business account that is a requirement for even sole traders ( using your own acc for business is a breach of terms) must be GBP and be where money from sales is deposited either immediately or within a reasonable time frame.

Ergo they are getting paid into a link account in GBP. That's what EPoS does. Cash is deposited end of day or as close to and matches what sales were logged.

EPoS having more scrutiny is a direct link between vendor and client. Stops people fiddling books.

Even mickey mouse e-commerce sites have to play by these rules. Your cafe is no different - that's why they have to pay into their business acc in GBP as part of the transaction. That cannot be in BTC.

You can run around this until you are blue in the face shouting Python magic and the future but those are the rules and deviating from them ends you in hot water with HMRC.

You will ignore all this and persist no doubt.

[sackot]

27 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

Nope you can pay with your GBP credit card and are charged for the conversion. Or some do it as a 'freebie' and have their own forex coversion values.

You do not pay the retailer in GBP but you have been charged effectively a conversion to Euros. They get Euros you pay your card charge in GBP.

The business account that is a requirement for even sole traders ( using your own acc for business is a breach of terms) must be GBP and be where money from sales is deposited either immediately or within a reasonable time frame.

Ergo they are getting paid into a link account in GBP. That's what EPoS does. Cash is deposited end of day or as close to and matches what sales were logged.

EPoS having more scrutiny is a direct link between vendor and client. Stops people fiddling books.

Even mickey mouse e-commerce sites have to play by these rules. Your cafe is no different - that's why they have to pay into their business acc in GBP as part of the transaction. That cannot be in BTC.

You can run around this until you are blue in the face shouting Python magic and the future but those are the rules and deviating from them ends you in hot water with HMRC.

You will ignore all this and persist no doubt.

Here is a simple and precise statement. I send the retailer bitcoin. They convert it to pounds.

Do you disagree with that?

[Staffsknot]

14 hours ago, sackot said:

Here is a simple and precise statement. I send the retailer bitcoin. They convert it to pounds.

Do you disagree with that?

Yes I disagree - you send CoinCorner BTC, then CoinCorner convert to pounds.

CoinCorner is acting like a bank doing forex based on the instructions of the recipient. The recipient issued a charge in GBP for goods priced in GBP and you chose to do a forex payment.

Its really really simple and you are ignoring it. 

You just have a btc card, the charge to it is made in whatever currency the recipient makes - which will be GBP as EPoS to business acc. You have chosen to use your card paying BTC but it needs converting for that transaction.

You can transfer BTC to an individual not as business invoice all day long but for a business transaction has to be in legal tender - which is all CoinCorner is doing for you. Same as a French person using a Euro VISA to buy a Starbucks.

That is all

[sackot]

6 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

Yes I disagree - you send CoinCorner BTC, then CoinCorner convert to pounds.

CoinCorner is acting like a bank doing forex based on the instructions of the recipient. The recipient issued a charge in GBP for goods priced in GBP and you chose to do a forex payment.

Its really really simple and you are ignoring it. 

You just have a btc card, the charge to it is made in whatever currency the recipient makes - which will be GBP as EPoS to business acc. You have chosen to use your card paying BTC but it needs converting for that transaction.

You can transfer BTC to an individual not as business invoice all day long but for a business transaction has to be in legal tender - which is all CoinCorner is doing for you. Same as a French person using a Euro VISA to buy a Starbucks.

That is all

OK, we're getting really close, to the point that you may think it's practically a semantic argument, but a bitcoiner would not. My statement, which you disagree with, was accurate.

As an aside, upthread you mocked Python and stuff, but as a techie I completely understand the tech side of how the system works. I described it very carefully to @data_dave, and stand by that description.

The card enables the transfer of bitcoin from a wallet which I nominate (could be at Coincorner, could be mine) to a wallet which they nominate. An instant later, the bitcoin belongs to the recipient. Technically, they sent my wallet an invoice in sats (bitcoin) which I paid.

From that point, they could run the whole system themselves (moving the contents of their wallet to an exchange at the end of day, for example, and having it converted to GBP) or they can elect to nominate a wallet at Coincorner, who will automatically convert, but charge a fee. That is of course the default for a system provided by Coincorner, but it's optional.

You said yourself, Coincorner makes the conversion on the instructions of the recipient: they do it with bitcoin which belong to the recipient. For all I care, they could convert it to Special Drawing Rights or Apple stock, makes no difference to me. You apparently would tell me "You don't understand, you are actually paying in Apple shares".

As I stated earlier, this is not equivalent to your Starbucks/VISA example.  Coincorner are not doing anything for me, they don't charge me a fee.  If I use a wallet of my own they probably don't even know I exist.

If it works as a fig-leaf for AML, fine, no skin off my nose. Meanwhile, the merchant saves fees from VISA, and the tiny bitcoin fees go to operators of nodes on the Lighting network. If it becomes widespread, eventually it opens the possibility that I could save my worth as bitcoin and largely avoid GBP and banks.

I assure you, this is all correct.

[Staffsknot]

28 minutes ago, sackot said:

OK, we're getting really close, to the point that you may think it's practically a semantic argument, but a bitcoiner would not. My statement, which you disagree with, was accurate.

As an aside, upthread you mocked Python and stuff, but as a techie I completely understand the tech side of how the system works. I described it very carefully to @data_dave, and stand by that description.

The card enables the transfer of bitcoin from a wallet which I nominate (could be at Coincorner, could be mine) to a wallet which they nominate. An instant later, the bitcoin belongs to the recipient. Technically, they sent my wallet an invoice in sats (bitcoin) which I paid.

From that point, they could run the whole system themselves (moving the contents of their wallet to an exchange at the end of day, for example, and having it converted to GBP) or they can elect to nominate a wallet at Coincorner, who will automatically convert, but charge a fee. That is of course the default for a system provided by Coincorner, but it's optional.

You said yourself, Coincorner makes the conversion on the instructions of the recipient: they do it with bitcoin which belong to the recipient. For all I care, they could convert it to Special Drawing Rights or Apple stock, makes no difference to me. You apparently would tell me "You don't understand, you are actually paying in Apple shares".

As I stated earlier, this is not equivalent to your Starbucks/VISA example.  Coincorner are not doing anything for me, they don't charge me a fee.  If I use a wallet of my own they probably don't even know I exist.

If it works as a fig-leaf for AML, fine, no skin off my nose. Meanwhile, the merchant saves fees from VISA, and the tiny bitcoin fees go to operators of nodes on the Lighting network. If it becomes widespread, eventually it opens the possibility that I could save my worth as bitcoin and largely avoid GBP and banks.

I assure you, this is all correct.

As a techie I can write Python I assure you.

Quite simply they cannot issue you an invoice in BTC, again they cannot charge non-legal tender they issue the price in GBP.

That is all they can charge in. That is all they can display a price in the shop in as BTC price changes with markets rapidly.

CoinCorner or whoever is doing the spot price bills you in BTC converted from GBP charge raised by vendor.

You are simply benefitting from a service someone else is providing to forex your BTC into whatever the GBP charge was.

Again its really straightforward. The retailer EPoS gives you a GBP price and that is all that be charged to you. It must match the price displayed in the shop and will match the GBP hitting their business acc.

It is precisely what happens with a forex on a card. It doesn't need BTC for them to setup an alternative to VISA.

European initiative been building an alternative backed by all major European banks.

 

[Up the spout]

On 25/11/2022 at 09:04, canbuywontbuy said:

Asia (China, India, SE Asia) covers about half the population of the planet, all big on gold.

That assumes you can either invest ALL of your wealth, or save ALL of your wealth.  Some wealth you want to grow (risk attached), some you want to preserve (much less risk).  The gold I hold isn't an "opportunity cost".   It's part of a balanced set of assets I hold. 

The best play is to spread your wealth amongst different asset classes. 

Since 2007 I've lived in China in Hubei, Guangdong, and Shandong provinces, and other than seeing small gold bars on sale in a bank I've never heard anything about Chinese people holding precious metals - the only investment they've told me they're keen on was housing. I was in Bahrain last weekend and there are plenty more gold shops catering to ME buyers there than I've seen anywhere in any SEA countries. 
I certainly won't count out any asset, but on balance holding gold seems like a lot of effort and risk for potentially not a lot of return. Like I said before, I've nothing against those who like precious metals but for me they aren't appropriate; I already diversify my portfolio sufficiently without needing to add it when I already have ETFs in miners.

[sackot]

3 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

As a techie I can write Python I assure you.

Quite simply they cannot issue you an invoice in BTC, again they cannot charge non-legal tender they issue the price in GBP.

That is all they can charge in. That is all they can display a price in the shop in as BTC price changes with markets rapidly.

CoinCorner or whoever is doing the spot price bills you in BTC converted from GBP charge raised by vendor.

You are simply benefitting from a service someone else is providing to forex your BTC into whatever the GBP charge was.

Again its really straightforward. The retailer EPoS gives you a GBP price and that is all that be charged to you. It must match the price displayed in the shop and will match the GBP hitting their business acc.

It is precisely what happens with a forex on a card. It doesn't need BTC for them to setup an alternative to VISA.

European initiative been building an alternative backed by all major European banks.

 

You are 'explaining' to me how the contactless lightning PoS works, I presume based on hypotheses. I know how it works. Some of what you say is true, and other parts are wrong or misleading.

The link I gave to @data_dave above gives the specs for the card, the customer server, and the vendor PoS. You will note in the payment flow that the vendor issues a Lightning invoice (in BTC) and the customer server pays it. The customer can use their own (private) server to pay.

The spec does not speak to how the vendor derives a GBP/BTC conversion rate. I imagine if the vendor uses Coincorner the rate will be that on their exchange at that moment.

Above I said "I send the retailer bitcoin. They convert it to pounds." and you said that was incorrect, because "You send the BTC to Coincorner" and "You are simply benefitting from a service someone else is providing". This is misleading. The vendor does not have to use Coincorner, they can use any exchange they (not I) want, if they have the tech expertise to arrange it. The exchange works for the vendor, not for me, and my statement was a correct description (unless maybe you thought I meant each coffee shop has to run their own crypto exchange).

"It is precisely what happens with a forex on a card." I'm at a loss what definition of equality you are using here. Maybe "both depend on some exchange somewhere in the world converting currencies, so they're the same", or "both result in the vendor receiving the currency of their choice, so they're the same"? Under any less shallow definition they're vastly different. They differ in a way which is fundamental to Bitcoin, so if you can't see the difference you will never get Bitcoin.

a) I pay a British shop with Euro notes, at EoD they pop round to the bank and convert them.
b) I (French) have a Euro bank account. I present my card in a British shop, and my bank converts euros to to pounds to settle (charging me a fee).

The first enables me to use cash. The second requires me to have an account with an institution. Bitcoin is a cash equivalent, so of necessity the transaction must be of form a), and that's what happens in the payment flow for the Coincorner card. You might not care about the difference, but that doesn't mean there is none.

You threw in a few straw men. I never said that the vendor displays prices in BTC. I said that Lightning is cheaper than VISA, but never claimed that BTC would be the unique and only possible way to achieve that. That would be silly.
 

[canbuywontbuy]

9 hours ago, Up the spout said:

Since 2007 I've lived in China in Hubei, Guangdong, and Shandong provinces, and other than seeing small gold bars on sale in a bank I've never heard anything about Chinese people holding precious metals - the only investment they've told me they're keen on was housing. I was in Bahrain last weekend and there are plenty more gold shops catering to ME buyers there than I've seen anywhere in any SEA countries. 
I certainly won't count out any asset, but on balance holding gold seems like a lot of effort and risk for potentially not a lot of return. Like I said before, I've nothing against those who like precious metals but for me they aren't appropriate; I already diversify my portfolio sufficiently without needing to add it when I already have ETFs in miners.

I've lived in Thailand for about as long as you've been in China, have traveled extensively throughout Vietnam, China, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Singapore - gold shops everywhere.  In fact, Bangkok's Chinatown (Yaowarat) is famous for its gold shops.  If you travel in Thailand, you'll see the gold price everywhere for 1 baht (15.24g) of gold.

Quote

I certainly won't count out any asset, but on balance holding gold seems like a lot of effort and risk for potentially not a lot of return

Another person who doesn't understand what gold is for. It's not an investment.

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2022 by canbuywontbuy

[Staffsknot]

8 hours ago, sackot said:

You are 'explaining' to me how the contactless lightning PoS works, I presume based on hypotheses. I know how it works. Some of what you say is true, and other parts are wrong or misleading.

The link I gave to @data_dave above gives the specs for the card, the customer server, and the vendor PoS. You will note in the payment flow that the vendor issues a Lightning invoice (in BTC) and the customer server pays it. The customer can use their own (private) server to pay.

The spec does not speak to how the vendor derives a GBP/BTC conversion rate. I imagine if the vendor uses Coincorner the rate will be that on their exchange at that moment.

Above I said "I send the retailer bitcoin. They convert it to pounds." and you said that was incorrect, because "You send the BTC to Coincorner" and "You are simply benefitting from a service someone else is providing". This is misleading. The vendor does not have to use Coincorner, they can use any exchange they (not I) want, if they have the tech expertise to arrange it. The exchange works for the vendor, not for me, and my statement was a correct description (unless maybe you thought I meant each coffee shop has to run their own crypto exchange).

"It is precisely what happens with a forex on a card." I'm at a loss what definition of equality you are using here. Maybe "both depend on some exchange somewhere in the world converting currencies, so they're the same", or "both result in the vendor receiving the currency of their choice, so they're the same"? Under any less shallow definition they're vastly different. They differ in a way which is fundamental to Bitcoin, so if you can't see the difference you will never get Bitcoin.

a) I pay a British shop with Euro notes, at EoD they pop round to the bank and convert them.
b) I (French) have a Euro bank account. I present my card in a British shop, and my bank converts euros to to pounds to settle (charging me a fee).

The first enables me to use cash. The second requires me to have an account with an institution. Bitcoin is a cash equivalent, so of necessity the transaction must be of form a), and that's what happens in the payment flow for the Coincorner card. You might not care about the difference, but that doesn't mean there is none.

You threw in a few straw men. I never said that the vendor displays prices in BTC. I said that Lightning is cheaper than VISA, but never claimed that BTC would be the unique and only possible way to achieve that. That would be silly.
 

I'm going to give you one last try as this is massively off-topic now:

You cannot invoice someone in non-legal tender.

No matter how you believe you are paying BTC to them and they are doing fabulous things with BTC the bill to you must be in legal tender. That blows every 'they take my bitcoin and do X' because you cannot be billed in BTC by the vendor same as they cannot bill you in Euros. A middleman ( bank) does the forex calc and issues in the currency the payer can pay in if they try and pay Euros.

Someone is taking that GBP request and doing the forex to give you a BTC request and unravelling as a GBP payment. The transaction must still show as from you and cannot be a BTC to BTC payment as GBP was the bill request as its only legal tender.

If you accept that fact you realise where thlings go awry. Anything other than above is not a business invoice and you can't bill yourself to do the transfer into GBP.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Staffsknot

[Up the spout]

1 hour ago, canbuywontbuy said:

I've lived in Thailand for about as long as you've been in China, have traveled extensively throughout Vietnam, China, Cambodia, Laos, Malaysia, Singapore - gold shops everywhere.  In fact, Bangkok's Chinatown (Yaowarat) is famous for its gold shops.  If you travel in Thailand, you'll see the gold price everywhere for 1 baht (15.24g) of gold.

Another person who doesn't understand what gold is for. It's not an investment.

 

I haven't lived in China since 2007; I've lived in 10 countries in Europe, the ME, and Asia since 2007. 

Maybe I just don't appreciate gold the way you do, so when I 'see' gold shops they usually don't register. You're now coming across as another person who thinks they're superior, because they 'understand' something 'better' than all of those who are unenlightened. That's what really bugs me about gold bugs and crypto bros - yeah, you like that asset - we get it. Go you. Just stop pushing it down everyone else's throats like some preachy televangelist. It's boring, impolite, and obnoxious. 

[canbuywontbuy]

19 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

I'm going to give you one last try as this is massively off-topic now:

You cannot invoice someone in non-legal tender.

No matter how you believe you are paying BTC to them and they are doing fabulous things with BTC the bill to you must be in legal tender. That blows every 'they take my bitcoin and do X' because you cannot be billed in BTC by the vendor same as they cannot bill you in Euros. A middleman ( bank) does the forex calc and issues in the currency the payer can pay in if they try and pay Euros.

Someone is taking that GBP request and doing the forex to give you a BTC request and unravelling as a GBP payment. The transaction must still show as from you and cannot be a BTC to BTC payment as GBP was the bill request as its only legal tender.

If you accept that fact you realise where thlings go awry. Anything other than above is not a business invoice and you can't bill yourself to do the transfer into GBP.

How is someone being invoiced in BTC if the item they are buying is sold and advertised in GBP? These BTC cards are already in existence.  Also, it's not forex, it'll be a crypto exchange that converts a BTC payment to GBP (you sell your BTC for cash) - and that GBP is then used to make payment for the item sold in GBP (my understanding). 

@sackot

[canbuywontbuy]

19 hours ago, Up the spout said:

I haven't lived in China since 2007; I've lived in 10 countries in Europe, the ME, and Asia since 2007. 

Maybe I just don't appreciate gold the way you do, so when I 'see' gold shops they usually don't register. You're now coming across as another person who thinks they're superior, because they 'understand' something 'better' than all of those who are unenlightened. That's what really bugs me about gold bugs and crypto bros - yeah, you like that asset - we get it. Go you. Just stop pushing it down everyone else's throats like some preachy televangelist. It's boring, impolite, and obnoxious. 

I'm just someone worried about the purchasing power of my long-term savings (and I include gold as "savings" here).  I also accept that everything does have a risk associated with it.  I still hold quite a lot of cash for that reason (which of course has its own risks, but I'm trying not to put all eggs in one basket). 

Edited December 3, 2022 by canbuywontbuy

[bodgittandscarper]

On 11/30/2022 at 7:34 PM, Staffsknot said:

 

This is the bit you don't get your transactions have to go to the business account and that cannot be in BTC.

Its pretty simple - I'm looking at a horse and you are shouting zebra.

I don't know why but this really made me laugh.

[shlomo]

The Maryland man is also one of thousands of Black investors who have seen the value of their crypto investments plummet. The prototypical face of crypto is young, white, techy, and male, but perhaps no other demographic group has been harder hit by the crypto bust than Black Americans, who are half as likely to own stocks as their white counterparts but significantly more likely to own cryptocurrencies. Because Black investors piled into the crypto market at or near its most recent top, many of those investors are now in the red.

That is especially worrisome because Black investors had so little to lose to begin with: Young Black men are one of the poorest segments of American society. It is also worrisome because many Black investors poured money into bitcoin because they found it so hard to build generational wealth in the first place. Discriminated against by banks, overlooked by investment managers, redlined and saddled with educational debt, many turned to more esoteric opportunities.

Indeed, crypto held practical appeal for small-dollar investors from historically marginalized communities: You could buy bitcoin on Cash App without a credit check. It had obvious financial appeal too. A survey by Charles Schwab and Ariel Investments earlier this year showed that a quarter of Black investors anticipated making 20 percent a year or more from their investments in crypto—a not-entirely-fanciful assumption, given that many of crypto’s early investors manifested billion-dollar fortunes out of nearly nothing. (The Schwab and Ariel survey also showed that many crypto investors did not fully understand they were buying a risky, unregulated product.)

Few people are willing to pay higher prices now, especially after the FTX debacle. Sure, the crypto market has boomed and busted and boomed and busted again and again in the past dozen-plus years, and many Black investors might see their losses turn into gains in time. But the surest way to build a crypto fortune is to have bought early; shoot-the-moon paydays may be a thing of the past. And recent polls show a sharp decline in the share of Black Americans holding bitcoin, indicating that many folks might have bought high and sold low.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/11/black-investors-bitcoin-cryptocurrency-crash/671750/

[dryrot]

"A survey by Charles Schwab and Ariel Investments earlier this year showed that a quarter of Black investors anticipated making 20 percent a year or more from their investments in crypto"

That anticipation may be at the root of the issue...

[sackot]

10 hours ago, canbuywontbuy said:

I'm just someone worried about the purchasing power of my long-term savings (and I include gold as "savings" here).  I also accept that everything does have a risk associated with it.  I still hold quite a lot of cash for that reason (which of course has its own risks, but I'm trying not to put all eggs in one basket). 

I'm with you on the gold. During my highest earning years, I was saving into building society accounts. I was totally financially illiterate, but wanted to save for my retirement and did not trust any private pension scheme to work for me.

After a decade, I finally started to twig what was happening and project into the future. At that point (2005), I started to buy gold (in Bullionvault) and my only regret now is that I did not do that with a higher percentage of my savings.

People keep calling this "speculation". That's not the intention, it's an attempt to avoid having your savings obliterated so your old age is lived in penury. You are trying to get what you earned and are owed, not become rich by gambling. I also agree that most inhabitants of third world countries understand this more readily than Brits.
 

[sackot]

10 hours ago, canbuywontbuy said:

How is someone being invoiced in BTC if the item they are buying is sold and advertised in GBP? These BTC cards are already in existence.  Also, it's not forex, it'll be a crypto exchange that converts a BTC payment to GBP (you sell your BTC for cash) - and that GBP is then used to make payment for the item sold in GBP (my understanding). 

@sackot

It's clear that @staffsknot and I will never agree, you'll just have to take each explanation and decide which corresponds most to reality. In any case, I don't care much about the legal definitions, I would take a "Walks like a duck" approach however the duck was defined. I do care about correctly describing the technical process, and why this advance offers advantages to both vendor and buyer.

The card is a sleight of hand which obscures how the system works, so take a step back to normal Lighting payments:
You want to buy a pint. The pub will display a price in GBP. The vendor's device contacts your device and asks you to pay 123,456 sats. His PoS will probably display a QR code, which you scan with your phone. That code is a Lightning invoice, and your wallet will say "pay 123,456 sats to Lighting node 3efghijklmn12 <Yes><No>. You click on Yes. The vendor will have directed that payment to an exchange which will convert it to GBP.

The only demand, which I assented to, was for a quantity of sats. Whether that will indeed be convertible and converted to any particular quantity of GBP is between the vendor and his exchange, and is completely outside my remit or control. I did not consent to pay XX GBP, I consented to and paid 123,456 sats. AFAIC that's the invoice.

I believe @staffsknot says the invoice is a document somewhere in the vendors accounting system which demands payment of XX GBP. I never saw it, though, and it's not what I assented to.

The contactless card just tells the vendor, "don't send the invoice to my phone, just pass it on to this online wallet of mine which has pre-agreed instant purchases upto a maximum of XXXXX sats.

[Staffsknot]

19 hours ago, canbuywontbuy said:

How is someone being invoiced in BTC if the item they are buying is sold and advertised in GBP? These BTC cards are already in existence.  Also, it's not forex, it'll be a crypto exchange that converts a BTC payment to GBP (you sell your BTC for cash) - and that GBP is then used to make payment for the item sold in GBP (my understanding). 

@sackot

In which case you haven't paid the retailer in BTC you've  paid the crypto exchange middleman and they paid on in GBP.

Exactly as a forex transaction does when you use a GBP card to pay for something in Euros in France.

You just described the exact point I have made - its not BTC to BTC if you are invoiced in GBP. Others try to say otherwise.

[canbuywontbuy]

10 hours ago, sackot said:

I'm with you on the gold. During my highest earning years, I was saving into building society accounts. I was totally financially illiterate, but wanted to save for my retirement and did not trust any private pension scheme to work for me.

After a decade, I finally started to twig what was happening and project into the future. At that point (2005), I started to buy gold (in Bullionvault) and my only regret now is that I did not do that with a higher percentage of my savings.

People keep calling this "speculation". That's not the intention, it's an attempt to avoid having your savings obliterated so your old age is lived in penury. You are trying to get what you earned and are owed, not become rich by gambling. I also agree that most inhabitants of third world countries understand this more readily than Brits.
 

Ah, I use Bullionvault too. I also hold some physical and own some PAXG (crypto backed by gold).  Yeah, it's merely preservation of what you already earned.  For me, it's the lowest risk way to do this on a longish time-frame (15 to 20 years+).  Other asset classes that are riskier can outperform gold, but again, it's about diversification.

[canbuywontbuy]

2 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

In which case you haven't paid the retailer in BTC you've  paid the crypto exchange middleman and they paid on in GBP.

Exactly as a forex transaction does when you use a GBP card to pay for something in Euros in France.

You just described the exact point I have made - its not BTC to BTC if you are invoiced in GBP. Others try to say otherwise.

De facto, the purchaser used their BTC to buy that coffee/whatever though.  They vendor received GBP.  The lightning network did its job in allowing the receiver to purchase something using their BTC. 

When it comes to small purchases, no vendor is going to sell their coffee or beer for BTC directly given its volatility.  It doesn't mean they won't accept BTC though (via the Lightning Network). 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by canbuywontbuy

[Staffsknot]

8 hours ago, canbuywontbuy said:

De facto, the purchaser used their BTC to buy that coffee/whatever though.  They vendor received GBP.  The lightning network did its job in allowing the receiver to purchase something using their BTC. 

When it comes to small purchases, no vendor is going to sell their coffee or beer for BTC directly given its volatility.  It doesn't mean they won't accept BTC though (via the Lightning Network). 

 

Which is exactly what I said day 1 you can't buy anything directly with BTC. Its the same as buying a giftcard and using that - often the way places do get round it.

There is no BTC to BTC purchase model. That is entirely at odds with what other poster said that they paid vendor direct in BTC.

There's an intermediary step.