Major job losses at Welsh Uni - 8% drop in student applications

[mathschoc]

The Russell group was formed in the 90's. What is wrong with Non Russell Group universities? I have a maths degree, did not choose RG due to affordability and also the fact my parents let me run with my decisions as they had no idea. 

I have helped teachers including a few from Oxbridge, yes Oxbridge, (despite the prestige they still forget what they studied) with problems they have difficulty with in either Maths Challenges or A Level maths. 

Elitist snobbery is precisely what has caused a big division in society. 

[nothernsoul]

The teaching of maths and english across the board in primary schools is better than it has ever been, certainly than when I attended school in the 1980s. You cant just get the class to write what they did over the holidays then tick it with a few spelling corrections, or sit on your **** while they do sums out of a textbook as we did as children. There is a demand from management to show constant added value. There will still be bad teachers but the pressure of ofsted and constant testing has forced the real lame ducks you saw decades ago out. Things have gone too far but there is no denying it raised standards. Whether they are the standards we need for the future is another matter.

[Mancghirl]

Just now, mathschoc said:

The Russell group was formed in the 90's. What is wrong with Non Russell Group universities? I have a maths degree, did not choose RG due to affordability and also the fact my parents let me run with my decisions as they had no idea. 

I have helped teachers including a few from Oxbridge, yes Oxbridge, (despite the prestige they still forget what they studied) with problems they have difficulty with in either Maths Challenges or A Level maths. 

Elitist snobbery is precisely what has caused a big division in society. 

Nothing again non RG institutions, but I went to school within a few miles of Manchester/UMIST, so it was inevitable that lots of my teachers were drawn from there. 

Our two best A level Maths teachers at my present place of employment are graduates of Leicester (non RG) and Open. Both rock solid and brilliant in the classroom. The main issue now is that lots of people teaching Maths at GCSE and A level don't have degree level Maths, but went through top up training due to a chronic shortage of teachers from the 90s onwards.

[spyguy]

1 minute ago, Mancghirl said:

Nothing again non RG institutions, but I went to school within a few miles of Manchester/UMIST, so it was inevitable that lots of my teachers were drawn from there. 

Our two best A level Maths teachers at my present place of employment are graduates of Leicester (non RG) and Open. Both rock solid and brilliant in the classroom. The main issue now is that lots of people teaching Maths at GCSE and A level don't have degree level Maths, but went through top up training due to a chronic shortage of teachers from the 90s onwards.

To be honest, someone who is not fluent at any subject normally makes a good teacher.

I tend to be very cautious with my weaker subjects, and work out where I go wtonf and the like.

Id struggle to teach the stuff Im really good as as I can just do it without a great deal of thought.

But tehre is a world of difference between caution and steadiness and just winging it and making it up.

[mathschoc]

There are excellent teachers and also very bad. It is just like any other profession, but in teaching the bad teacher impact is damaging.

However, with the state of education at the moment, the good teachers, the ones who plan lessons properly, know their stuff, provide students support and help are exactly the ones who can get jobs outside of teaching, especially if they are good Maths graduates.  The good teachers are leaving at a much faster rate than the not so good. The bad ones are not going anywhere, too thick skinned.

[mathschoc]

7 minutes ago, Mancghirl said:

The main issue now is that lots of people teaching Maths at GCSE and A level don't have degree level Maths, but went through top up training due to a chronic shortage of teachers from the 90s onwards.

I agree with this, although Engineering grads are just as good at teaching as Maths graduates. These top-up non specialist teachers should not be allowed to teach, but we are in a state where that is not an option.

[Sancho Panza]

1 hour ago, spyguy said:

Some moronic scheme, spawned by a civil servant and politician wth no experidnce of the real world.

Bit like loose regulation for banks - Im sure banks wont lend to people who canot pay the loan back ....

Im sure sure people wont go to Uni and not get a good job. The stats show that people who wnent to Uni (i nthe 1960s) earned good money. Lets expeand Uni educatio nand everyone will earn good money ....

 

 

That was the line of thought................incredible really,but the knowledge economy sounded great on paper.

[One-percent]

13 minutes ago, nothernsoul said:

The teaching of maths and english across the board in primary schools is better than it has ever been

I'm not sure I agree given what I see in post 16 classrooms. A significant majority struggle with the basics. That's not indicative of a working education system

[Mancghirl]

3 minutes ago, mathschoc said:

I agree with this, although Engineering grads are just as good at teaching as Maths graduates. These top-up non specialist teachers should not be allowed to teach, but we are in a state where that is not an option.

Yes, we've got 2 excellent Engineering grads teaching GCSE. Very fortunate. However, I've taught in inner city schools where no-one in the Maths team had a degree with substantial Maths content. But as you say, we don't have options  - every single UK Maths graduate every year is required to train as a teacher, with current attrition/retirement rates.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Mancghirl

[One-percent]

1 minute ago, mathschoc said:

I agree with this, although Engineering grads are just as good at teaching as Maths graduates. These top-up non specialist teachers should not be allowed to teach, but we are in a state where that is not an option.

Post war, they were training ex forces being demobbed to teach in around 6 months and they tended not to be degree educated. There didn't appear to be the problems we have now with maths and English. 

[nothernsoul]

I agree with spyguy, someone who is not naturally fluent in a subject can make a good teacher of that subject at basic level, as long as they have competent teaching skills and are willing to reflect upon their knowledge. I am very much a plodder at maths, but having had to think through myself how to do something makes it easier to teach somebody else.

[mathschoc]

6 minutes ago, One-percent said:

Post war, they were training ex forces being demobbed to teach in around 6 months and they tended not to be degree educated. There didn't appear to be the problems we have now with maths and English. 

It's because Education is now a big business. Labour ditched O Levels to bring in easier GCSE's, I went through GCSE's myself and I can see the difference. Then came in numerous exam boards all wanting a slice of the pie, the easier the sample papers the more schools join. I can't stand Gove but he hit the nail on the head " a race to the bottom"

Unfortunately he did not do away with the greedy exam boards, something to do with one of them being a large donor to tories.....a bloomin mess.

Edited April 2, 2017 by mathschoc

[One-percent]

1 minute ago, nothernsoul said:

I agree with spyguy, someone who is not naturally fluent in a subject can make a good teacher of that subject at basic level, as long as they have competent teaching skills and are willing to reflect upon their knowledge. I am very much a plodder at maths, but having had to think through myself how to do something makes it easier to teach somebody else.

No, you really do need to know the subject you are teaching. Of course in addition, you also need to be able to,teach. 

[One-percent]

Just now, mathschoc said:

It's because Education is now a big business. Labour ditched O Levels to bring in easier GCSE's, I went through GCSE's myself and I can see the difference. Then came in numerous exam boards all wanting a slice of the pie, the easier the sample papers the more schools join. I can't stand Gove but he hit the nail on the head " a race to the bottom"

Undfortunatley he did not do away with the greedy exam boards, something to with one of them being a large donor to tories.....a bloomin mess.

Nail on head. Coupled to teachers spoon feeding students because for a range of reasons, none  are allowed to fail.  A corrupt system. 

[Mancghirl]

Just now, mathschoc said:

It's because Education is now a big business. Labour ditched O Levels to bring in easier GCSE's, I went through GCSE's myself and I can see the difference. Then came in numerous exam boards all wanting a slice of the pie, the easier the sample papers the more schools join. I can't stand Gove but he hit the nail on the head " a race to the bottom"

Undfortunatley he did not do away with the greedy exam boards, something to with one of them being a large donor to tories.....a bloomin mess.

Don't even get me started on the exam boards. One thing Scotland has right is the use of one exam board.

However, GCSEs were brought in under the Tories, not Labour! (1988)

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

2 minutes ago, mathschoc said:

It's because Education is now a big business. Labour ditched O Levels to bring in easier GCSE's, I went through GCSE's myself and I can see the difference. Then came in numerous exam boards all wanting a slice of the pie, the easier the sample papers the more schools join. I can't stand Gove but he hit the nail on the head " a race to the bottom"

Unfortunately he did not do away with the greedy exam boards, something to do with one of them being a large donor to tories.....a bloomin mess.

I thought GCSEs came in during the late 80s...

[mathschoc]

4 minutes ago, nothernsoul said:

I agree with spyguy, someone who is not naturally fluent in a subject can make a good teacher of that subject at basic level, as long as they have competent teaching skills and are willing to reflect upon their knowledge. I am very much a plodder at maths, but having had to think through myself how to do something makes it easier to teach somebody else.

You need to able to have discussions with students who think of the next step, or ask a question beyond what the scope of what you have planned. You also have to be able to get to a problem in numerous different ways where possible. There is also no text book that will help you with maths challenges or quirky little problems. 

You are right in that teachers need to be able to explain and bring it down to the students level, but equally important is being able to do the subject when put on the spot.

[Sancho Panza]

5 minutes ago, Mancghirl said:

Yes, we've got 2 excellent Engineering grads teaching GCSE. Very fortunate. However, I've taught in inner city schools where no-one in the Maths team had a degree with substantial Maths content. But as you say, we don't have options  - every single UK Maths graduate every year is required to train as a teacher, with current attrition/retirement rates.

 

5 minutes ago, One-percent said:

Post war, they were training ex forces being demobbed to teach in around 6 months and they tended not to be degree educated. There didn't appear to be the problems we have now with maths and English. 

The one thing we're avoiding talking about here is the kids themselves.A good friend of mine teaches English in inner city Leicester.The schools get no extra substantial help for taking on kids with poor english,who just get loaded into the system which is struggling already.

That's besides the issues the school has with discipline and fights between different gangs.She does it because she enjoys working there but understands why a lot of people might not want to.

 

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

10 minutes ago, One-percent said:

Post war, they were training ex forces being demobbed to teach in around 6 months and they tended not to be degree educated. There didn't appear to be the problems we have now with maths and English. 

I'm going to throw this out there with no evidence as such but I would suggest the 'lifestyles' of children has changed such that they do not reinforce what they've learned as they might have done in the past.

[mathschoc]

4 minutes ago, 24 year mortgage 8itch said:

I thought GCSEs came in during the late 80s...

Yeh, I got that wrong, it was the Tories who brought that in as someone else pointed out.

[nothernsoul]

Everything isnt perfect but the idea that the past was better can be an illusion. When only  20 percent went anywhere near higher education you never saw the rest who left with no formal academic qualifications.  I saw a statistic where only 15 percent of the population in the 1950s got 5 o levels. When there was plenty of manual work nobody cared. Most of the population go into further education now so the standard across the board will be lower. I have also been told that primary teaching is better than secondary school teaching where there is a drop off in childrens progression so that may be a facto too.

[One-percent]

1 minute ago, 24 year mortgage 8itch said:

I'm going to throw this out there with no evidence as such but I would suggest the 'lifestyles' of children has changed such that they do not reinforce what they've learned as they might have done in the past.

I think in part you are right.  The biggest issue is 'trendy' teaching methods. I could not help my kids at primary with long multiplication because they were being taught a different method.  I would have confused them plus it didn't make sense to me what they were being asked to,do.  

Why not just stick with the tried and trusted?  That way, we all no how to do it and all of us can pitch in and help.  No point in being clever if no one knows what the feck is going on 

[mathschoc]

2 minutes ago, 24 year mortgage 8itch said:

I'm going to throw this out there with no evidence as such but I would suggest the 'lifestyles' of children has changed such that they do not reinforce what they've learned as they might have done in the past.

True....it is an additional factor, students expect to be totally spoon fed. The benefit system has a lot to answer for too, students from those households tend to be the ones with lowest aspirations.

If you can get money by not working, still get the daily pack of fags, why bother with anything.

[One-percent]

Just now, nothernsoul said:

Everything isnt perfect but the idea that the past was better can be an illusion. When only  20 percent went anywhere near higher education you never saw the rest who left with no formal academic qualifications.  I saw a statistic where only 15 percent of the population in the 1950s got 5 o levels. When there was plenty of manual work nobody cared. Most of the population go into further education now so the standard across the board will be lower. I have also been told that primary teaching is better than secondary school teaching where there is a drop off in childrens progression so that may be a facto too.

250,000 per year did an apprenticeship in the 60s and 70s.  These were a highly regarded career route. We forget that there was criticism of it on grounds of exclusivity. 

[South Lorne]

 

 

"The University of South Wales blamed Brexit" .....in the second week of April it is forecast the weather will get colder ...people are blaming BREXIT.....wah wah....