Is It Time To Give Up ?

[Venger]

Facts remain rxe, you came onto this thread posting this.... like some normal good-timing homeowner, who now can't see hpc... talking about renters having a "life spent waiting" for hpc.

I think this is very dependent on where you are. We bought in Berkshire, and only effect of the "crash" was to knock a few additional houses onto the market and the elimination of the nutters offering 20% over asking. I distinctly remember being very concerned about buying a house, but that was tempered by not being concerned about having a load of cash in the bank. Since then, it has been a relentless march upwards, no bargains round here. There may well be places in the country where there are bargains, but I'm not aware of them.

I honestly think anyone expecting 50% drops is going to spend a lot of their life waiting.

And I just reminded people you are a landlord. Just makes me very uneasy your positioning on housepricecrash. You're playing it to your own position as multiple property owner. You don't want a HPC. Your position if for yourself as a landlord/property investor. In that post you count your 25% a year HPI from the other year. I'm not going to take my market bearings from a dancing HPI-counting landlord posting on HPC, posting all his doubts here why hpc so unlikely to happen.

Also noted in that post is you bought and were concerned about not having much money in the bank when you bought a house in the dip (+ you're landlord with a rental property)

My view is many landlord types are going to get caught out with lots of property, for the demand and because HPC can never happen, and have no money in the bank to speak of. All in property. That you'll have your **** handed back to you.

So how did I get on this particular gravy train? Simple, we didn't sell my wife's first house. All bought and paid for (I wrote a cheque for the remaining mortgage after we got married...), and the simple truth was that I did not know what else to do with the money. If we'd sold it, I'd have either stuck it in the bank (losing to inflation) or stuck it in the stock market (losing to everything). So instead we kept the house and let it out. The act of passive investment has produced the second best return on any investment I have made. On a purchase capital basis it is yielding close to 25% PA, on a current value basis, about 3% (ignoring capital appreciation). It is in a top SE location, strangely still rising in value (no I don't get that either), and I'm not overly worried about a crash - property would have to crash 80% before I lost money. Incidentally, the best investment I have ever made was also property - can you see why this has been so damn attractive over the last decade or so?

You're latest post again you give it the good old "how can there ever be a house price crash" with so many of the same complacent explanations read many times over. A woot woot locked-in HPI posting, and

And the brag that you'll be filling your boots buying more rental property if there were one.

Well let's see... two houses, and in your last purchase from 2008 you had some concern about it not leaving you much money left in savings.

Has your savings position massively improved since then. Many landlords see money in the bank as dead money. Seems to me you have one SE rental that's inflated in value + your current home with mortgage. What occurs in any HPC... both fall in value. I doubt you'll be filling your boots then with more investment properties. Just another landlord anti-HPC brag it seems to me. The BTL lenders even into HPC may not be willing to front you the mortgage you need, when you've already got 2 properties undergoing HPC.

Hmmm, I feel almost.....stalked...

Why am I on the forum - well I'm mainly on OT pontificating about cars, but the main forum is a good view of the news - between this forum and Zerohedge, the "questioning" news analysis is pretty covered.

Two thoughts:

- on the "how long have you got to wait" aspect - I do think it is true. There are loads of posts here railing against crappy rental deals, being kicked out, being unable to do what you want with the property - and eventually you just have to play the game or die waiting. In my case I wanted a place with some space before I got too old to manage the space.

[...]- I just don't see the prospect of a decent crash in the SE at least. Demand remains huge (loads of people needing a roof over their heads), just as the prices are insane. Everything that is built is bought rapidly, at all levels of the market. There's an awful lot of foreign money looking for a home, as direct investment, and this will not exit quickly - it is long term. If it was short term, they'd be buying something far more tradeable. And to be clear, if there was a proper crash, I would fill my boots this time round.

Do I see a justification for price rises to infinity - outside London, not at all. Inside London, I'm not sure as London is utterly detached from reality. Do I worry about a crash - only in the wider economic context. I have zero debt, and no intention of getting into debt.

Check out how some landlords think.... and this is not the worst of it by a long way. There was an astonishing thread not long ago full of landlords who felt their debt (and no savings) makes them safe, that banks won't repossess.. coarsely believing that they're too big and its too awkward for the lender to act against them. They even asked a specialist lender about it on video-link, on behalf of the growing number of landlords thinking this.. and he was taken aback... "It doesn't work that way."

When I say growing cash pile, I don't mean having it sat there looking at me earning 2% as that means it's growth will be stunted,and like our children it needs to be lovingly nurtured to grow big and strong.

I mean doing BTS to help it grow quicker. Investing in BTS, from purchase to getting the cash back is usually less than 6 months. I can't see anything changing that quickly that a 6 month or even 12 month timeframe is that critical. I have lots of empty credit cards for such emergencies as well as a bit of cash and a large overdraft. Or I could get a large loan to tide me over.

think we all have different views on what a cash pile means. I suppose for most people this is cash in an account. To me, it means if the winds change then in a reasonable timeframe I will also be able to have my cash sat in an account if I so wish, but in the meantime continue to invest it to grow it.

I'd rather buy 5-6 houses with cash with £300k and have the income, which will be far greater than the savings on the mortgage. I'd then consider 75% of this as available cash as it would only take a few weeks to remortgage and have access to it.

I can't think of a situation I'd need £225k in a timeframe less than this.

http://www.propertytribes.com/breaking-news-bank-ireland-increase-tracker-rates-by-t-7480.html

[Venger]

Another landlord... ewww cash ISAs? When it could all be growing in property.

I think the key thing here is a BTL mortgage is an unregulated product. Yes a broker can advise on the best one available for an investor but the person taking the product out is responsible. If I take out a cash ISA (not that I would) and the bonus rate drops after a year then I should know that and I shouldn't rely on a broker or a comparison website.

[Venger]

I get a lot of this. My answer is why shouldn't I be allowed to rent for a reasonable amount and have rules to protect me as a tenant. I don't want to do any DIY, thank you! And if I can rent for a 2-3% yield, I will rent forever! Of course most owners don't know what a yield is!

BTW all this pointless talk of trolling is starting to irritate me. Did someone read that there are trolls on the interweb and now wants to the point the finger at anyone with a differing opinion. I welcome anyone who wants to debate that house will go up forever (I can appreciate it from an inflation point of view but that doesn't defend the malinvestment going on due to ZIRP and QE), I will enjoy cutting down their poor understanding of economics.

But lets consider this, if one day I come round to the thinking that a correction has occurred by stealth and there are still people on here still going on about a HPC at this % or that %, should I be called a troll for pointing out that the market has fundamentally changed? Or would I have to start posting on Mumsnet!

You're okay by me RTID.

However I'm sticking to my position there are some people who have a strong VI in BTL/HPI who post anti-HPC themes to back their own positions, and try to create ever more doubt and fear on the HPC side. There's a landlord here in this thread alone.. maybe more than one.. we have bear.getting.old being so bearish he's been caught out as looking to go into property-investment. Then PopGun and his no-repo position from way back.

Are we anywhere near that point for you (hpc having played out by stealth)?

[Venger]

This one... not much margin in it.. from last sale... unless they're hoping for another bidding war. It's a sign for me... how much "buyer's remorse" is out there, for those who've been buying at ever higher prices into the frenzy. I'll buy when it's sure fire buyer's glee.

_____

Guide Price £1,325,000

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-34270074.html

Last sold: £1,200,000 on 09 Jun 2014

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=33901179&sale=51307514&country=england

Previous archived listing (2014 bidding war?)

http://www.zoopla.co.uk/property-history/83-bainton-road/oxford/ox2-7ag/32477855

Planning doc suggest current owner/flipper lives in super-prime Kensington.. in a property bought for £3m+ in 2003.

search 14/02937/CPU

[PDF - one time generated key use only?] http://public.oxford.gov.uk/online-applications/files/FBC25DC3BD09E8817C4525CE368B4F98/pdf/14_02937_CPU-APPLICATIONFORMNOPERSONALDATA-1518181.pdf

The house about is no.83.

We had hpc-soft posters claiming that buyers of such homes at £1.2m were 'Wombles' - not deliberately pricing out others... it was good to hit back with research to suggest it was just another flipper who lived in Kensington in a home valued around £9m. It's a market, not an excuse fest about 'innocents' for those paying £1.2m then trying to flip for more soon after. How far can you stretch your anti-HPC excuse giving with £1m+ flippers? It's extreme. You deserve some of the counter-punches from real HPCers questioning if you can stomach hpc or what you're actually here for.

House in same postcode come on rental market.... very similar but this one 5 beds. No.77. Bought in 2007 for £960,000.

Seeking £3,750 pcm

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=14961827&sale=25651133&country=england

[MrXxx]

CBWB..here you go, 'a picture says a thousand words'

http://www.economicshelp.org/wp-content/uploads/blog-uploads/2013/05/base-rates-bank-rates-mortgage-rates-500x354.png

So as I stated previously its not about the base rate per se, its about the differential and as you can see the banks are making a greater profit since the base rate dropped to 0.5% than before the drop....and I am not an economist...oh, or a troll either!

[rxe]

Well let's see... two houses, and in your last purchase from 2008 you had some concern about it not leaving you much money left in savings.

Has your savings position massively improved since then. Many landlords see money in the bank as dead money. Seems to me you have one SE rental that's inflated in value + your current home with mortgage. What occurs in any HPC... both fall in value. I doubt you'll be filling your boots then with more investment properties. Just another landlord anti-HPC brag it seems to me. The BTL lenders even into HPC may not be willing to front you the mortgage you need, when you've already got 2 properties undergoing HPC.

Whatever. For the record, zero mortgage, and yes, savings have recovered nicely since 2008. You probably will choose not to believe me, but those are the facts. Short of posting bank statements (which I'm clearly not going to do), I'm not sure how I can convince you otherwise. This is slightly the problem I have with the attitude towards the alleged "trolls" - you read my posts and imagine I am levved up to the hilt and vulnerable to HPC: do you apply the same filter to every other interaction you have? I could probably send you apoplectic by revealing a bit more, but I'll save your blood pressure.

You're latest post again you give it the good old "how can there ever be a house price crash" with so many of the same complacent explanations read many times over. A woot woot locked-in HPI posting, and

Fact remains, demand is pretty high in the South East. Now I accept entirely that loads of people in the SE could bog off and go ... somewhere else, thus killing demand. If that happened, the value of the houses would be the least of our collective worries.

[Venger]

Whatever. For the record, zero mortgage, and yes, savings have recovered nicely since 2008. You probably will choose not to believe me, but those are the facts. Short of posting bank statements (which I'm clearly not going to do), I'm not sure how I can convince you otherwise. This is slightly the problem I have with the attitude towards the alleged "trolls" - you read my posts and imagine I am levved up to the hilt and vulnerable to HPC: do you apply the same filter to every other interaction you have? I could probably send you apoplectic by revealing a bit more, but I'll save your blood pressure.

Fact remains, demand is pretty high in the South East. Now I accept entirely that loads of people in the SE could bog off and go ... somewhere else, thus killing demand. If that happened, the value of the houses would be the least of our collective worries.

Real Estate runs on money not population growth (or "loads of people"), or unproceedable demand.

I just doubt you've got enough cash to 'fill your boots' (of course that's going to wind me up, HPC member), already exposed to 2 houses (one with mortgage, one owned outright and rented), into a HPC.

In a HPC, liquidity disappears / becomes expensive.

[rxe]

Er, read the post. No mortgage. At all, on anything. Nada, zilch, not a sausage.

Demand and price are pretty inextricably linked, however, in the event that price (and in particular rental price) does fall, it isn't a big deal. If you go back to the posts you are quoting, you'll see that I'm renting that house out at about 15 - 20% below market rents in the interests of keeping a long term tenant in. So, say rents do fall by 20%, which is a pretty tidy crash, I'm not overly bothered.

[Venger]

Er, read the post. No mortgage. At all, on anything. Nada, zilch, not a sausage.

Demand and price are pretty inextricably linked, however, in the event that price (and in particular rental price) does fall, it isn't a big deal. If you go back to the posts you are quoting, you'll see that I'm renting that house out at about 15 - 20% below market rents in the interests of keeping a long term tenant in. So, say rents do fall by 20%, which is a pretty tidy crash, I'm not overly bothered.

So, we have our positions. You all in real-estate as home + landlord to a SE house + a bit in savings (I refuse to accept you've not only cleared your 2008-12 mortgage and also put a stonking amount into cash savings at the same time). And here, as a landlord, posting against the HPC position.

Myself all in cash, positioned against you.

Hmmm, I feel almost.....stalked...

Why am I on the forum - well I'm mainly on OT pontificating about cars, but the main forum is a good view of the news - between this forum and Zerohedge, the "questioning" news analysis is pretty covered.

Two thoughts:

- on the "how long have you got to wait" aspect - I do think it is true. There are loads of posts here railing against crappy rental deals, being kicked out, being unable to do what you want with the property - and eventually you just have to play the game or die waiting. In my case I wanted a place with some space before I got too old to manage the space.

- I just don't see the prospect of a decent crash in the SE at least. Demand remains huge (loads of people needing a roof over their heads), just as the prices are insane. Everything that is built is bought rapidly, at all levels of the market. There's an awful lot of foreign money looking for a home, as direct investment, and this will not exit quickly - it is long term. If it was short term, they'd be buying something far more tradeable. And to be clear, if there was a proper crash, I would fill my boots this time round.

Do I see a justification for price rises to infinity - outside London, not at all. Inside London, I'm not sure as London is utterly detached from reality. Do I worry about a crash - only in the wider economic context. I have zero debt, and no intention of getting into debt.

[pras]

I wonder how may of these parasitic BTL scum have the correct mortgage and declare their rental income to HMRC?

[MrXxx]

Pras, when we have big multi-national shafting the tax system I think a few minor BTL scum (your words, not mine) is the least of our worries...but, our political class would feel proud of you for having taking their 'line'...whilst of course while you have been easily distracted they are 'protecting' their 'friends' in big business!

[rxe]

So, we have our positions. You all in real-estate as home + landlord to a SE house + a bit in savings (I refuse to accept you've not only cleared your 2008-12 mortgage and also put a stonking amount into cash savings at the same time). And here, as a landlord, posting against the HPC position.

Myself all in cash, positioned against you.

Again, you're inferring an awful lot from a rather narrow set of data. What do you know about my "position"? You know I own more than one house. You know I have no debt. You know nothing about my savings, you know nothing about any other investments I have, you know nothing about my income. Again, you've fallen into the trap of thinking someone with more than one house is "all in" and massively vulnerable. I'm probably more conservative in terms of investment than you are..... Not only do you know very little about me, but you also consider that anyone you disagrees (even modestly) with the perceived wisdom is a troll. I'm simply posting what I see in the interests of a discussion - as (presumably) you are. Even if there was win/lose on this discussion, what is the prize?

You say that the pro-HPI position is "woot woot" - but what is the HPC position? That valuations as multiples of wages are insane - sure they are, but they've been insane for quite some time (well over a decade) and it hasn't happened. That may be due to massive government intervention, but hell, i'm just an itty bitty investor - I can't fight the BOE.

Myself all in cash, positioned against you.

I don't see you as positioned against me or anyone else. If the HPC happens, you're indicating a floor at 50% discount. There are probably many others providing floors at smaller discounts.

[Venger]

Again, you're inferring an awful lot from a rather narrow set of data. What do you know about my "position"? You know I own more than one house. You know I have no debt. You know nothing about my savings, you know nothing about any other investments I have, you know nothing about my income. Again, you've fallen into the trap of thinking someone with more than one house is "all in" and massively vulnerable. I'm probably more conservative in terms of investment than you are..... Not only do you know very little about me, but you also consider that anyone you disagrees (even modestly) with the perceived wisdom is a troll. I'm simply posting what I see in the interests of a discussion - as (presumably) you are. Even if there was win/lose on this discussion, what is the prize?

You say that the pro-HPI position is "woot woot" - but what is the HPC position? That valuations as multiples of wages are insane - sure they are, but they've been insane for quite some time (well over a decade) and it hasn't happened. That may be due to massive government intervention, but hell, i'm just an itty bitty investor - I can't fight the BOE.

I don't see you as positioned against me or anyone else. If the HPC happens, you're indicating a floor at 50% discount. There are probably many others providing floors at smaller discounts.

From some of your other postings it seems you are all about property, not about stocks and other investments with your regular can crash 50%, vs 'good old property'. I am simply pointing out you're a landlord, strong willed property person, posting positive-property outlook on a thread where some HPC are feeling the strain of the market.

The banks may want to get some fresh debt on all this outright owned stock.

You/your mother may be immune to repo etc, but that doesn't mean they're immune to hard HPC, when very few upsizers are left in market... MMR, no interest in large stupid priced properties. Heck even newbuild HTB has sucked out loads of demand for larger homes of your mother/her friends... with those going all in to debt to get basic newbuild.

Values are set at the margin. Don't come a crying on HPC when next door sells for 60% less than you/your mother thought it was worth, thus downvaluing all other houses (including all those not on the market). The new transaction price between seller and buyer, and no one else's bid/offer challenging the agreed transaction price, affects markets on the way down, just as it did on way up. Equity/value can disappear fast.

Keep holding property for the HPC.

A lot of that demograhic has very good pensions. My mother is being paid well from my father's final salary scheme. No financial stress at all. Now her friends may be a somewhat strange demographic, but I don't see any of them in major trouble, all are in the same position, nice big houses, decent pensions, and very low outgoings with zero debt. It seems to be the following generation that spends it all on flash holidays and motors.

Now at some stage (hopefully a long way off), I will probably inherit the place. Honestly, I'd rather my mother did what she wanted to, rather than attempt to lock in some sort of asset. When the time comes, I will view it as a bonus, whatever the value. What would I do with it? I've got somewhere to live. If I sell it, I have to find somewhere else to put the money, and these days, that is pretty fraught. So, whatever it is worth, I'd probably keep it.

My point is that there are a very large number of people out there who are pretty immune to house price shifts. We focus on the ones who have cocked up and got themselves in trouble, but I think these are a minority - like the people on the TV last night who had a somewhat idealistic view of being a landlord.

I would view it as a once in a lifetime opportunity to transfer assets across 2 generations and not pay the government a vast amount to do so. I don't believe in this bubble, but I continue to believe in property as a long term investment. While the value of companies in stock markets may collapse, in local currency a decent house in a decent area will be worth having.

[rxe]

Well lets have that discussion, because I am genuinely interested. If a reasonable chunk of change dropped in your lap, where would you put it?

Cash in the bank - earning less than inflation, particularly after tax

Fixed income - earning less than inflation, particularly after tax

Equities - fairly high risk unless you are very active - companies that have been long term buy and hold have come somewhat unstuck in recent years. If we're talking about paper losses, all of mine have been in this category. I'm not a professional investor - I find a company with a decent strategy and decent numbers, and buy it for the long haul

Commodities - only for the brave.

Property - I sure as hell would not be investing right now. Rental yields barely (and in most cases don't) cover the costs.

So - a world of unattractiveness. The real question is would you sell a property to move into any other category? I took the decision not to sell the wife's house in about 2001, and it was the second best investment decision I have made. Based on the purchase price, it has paid for itself several times over. Even if the value went to zero tomorrow, and it was impossible to let it out, I have still won over the last 15 years. That's won as in taken the money out, not re-invested, proper income. I've run it with the interests of the tenants in mind, and thus have had about 2 months of voids in 15 years. So - where else would you advise me to put the money?

You/your mother may be immune to repo etc, but that doesn't mean they're immune to hard HPC, when very few upsizers are left in market... MMR, no interest in large stupid priced properties. Heck even newbuild HTB has sucked out loads of demand for larger homes of your mother/her friends... with those going all in to debt to get basic newbuild.

Again, how would an HPC affect her? She paid £20K for it in 1972, the current valuation is just a string of numbers as far as she is concerned. She just lives there - by the time she needs to worry about upsizers ..... she won't be doing the worrying. And as I said in the previous post, a crash would be the perfect opportunity to hand on an asset for minimal IHT. And despite what you say about no demand for larger homes, the buggers still seem to sell at a fair clip.

Why am I bothering with this discussion? I think it is worth providing a counterpoint to two memes on here. Firstly that all landlords are evil blood suckers - I certainly don't think I am evil, and I'm pretty sure the tenants don't either. Agents on the other hand most certainly are.... Secondly, I think it is worth saying that there are a large number of people out there who are not over extended, not vulnerable, and can afford to ride out what will effectively be margin calls. 50% of owner occupiers have paid off their mortgages - so in an HPC they will see paper numbers decline, but they won't be forced to sell.

Edited May 18, 2015 by rxe

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Would you argue that all slave owners weren't evil?

[Venger]

Well lets have that discussion, because I am genuinely interested. If a reasonable chunk of change dropped in your lap, where would you put it?

Cash in the bank - earning less than inflation, particularly after tax

Cash in the bank vs these house prices.

Mummy won't be forced to sell, but in a HPC, you inherit a house worth less than you expected. That's good enough for me. Other inheritors will sell in similar circumstances, even if you're Mr.Property and keep hold of it, if/when she passes. Also some similar to your mother will look to sell as prices begin to soften - not many - but some, simply because they realise it's a good move... why lose out on £100Ks of equity you can pass to grandkids etc, by downsizing.

I see SleepWell is watching.... another of my landlord favourites. Calmed down from the West Brom High Court judgment yet sleepwell?

I'll let someone else put their position to your position, for unfortunately I have to do some work now grr - I'd prefer to be posting on hpc but I can't right now.

[sleepwello'nights]

Actually I had a quick peep at this thread mid afternoon and didn't log out when I moved on to other things. Like terrorising innocent tenants, whipping a few slaves, sneering at some downtrodden unfortunates and so on. Because I'm an evil landlord as your "Clouseau" like investigative skills have discovered .

I'm surprised you have work to do, trawling through the posts of anyone that disagrees with your view must be almost a full time job.

In any case even if there is an HPC, my housing investments gave me a great return.

[Neverwhere]

Pras, when we have big multi-national shafting the tax system I think a few minor BTL scum (your words, not mine) is the least of our worries...but, our political class would feel proud of you for having taking their 'line'...whilst of course while you have been easily distracted they are 'protecting' their 'friends' in big business!

The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. BTL is the housing crisis.

[snip]

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/204734-%e2%80%8aa-little-time-bomb-under-uk-buy-to-let-housing/?p=1102721329

[rxe]

Cash in the bank vs these house prices.

Mummy won't be forced to sell, but in a HPC, you inherit a house worth less than you expected. That's good enough for me. Other inheritors will sell in similar circumstances, even if you're Mr.Property and keep hold of it, if/when she passes. Also some similar to your mother will look to sell as prices begin to soften - not many - but some, simply because they realise it's a good move... why lose out on £100Ks of equity you can pass to grandkids etc, by downsizing.

I see SleepWell is watching.... another of my landlord favourites. Calmed down from the West Brom High Court judgment yet sleepwell?

I'll let someone else put their position to your position, for unfortunately I have to do some work now grr - I'd prefer to be posting on hpc but I can't right now.

Would you have given the same advice 5 years ago? Or 10 years ago? If I struggle back to the depths of 2006, I'm pretty sure that "cash in the bank" was still the investment category of choice - which would have been a spectacular miss compared to a house over the last decade. Will it continue to be a miss? I have no idea at all, and nor does anyone else, because if you really did know the answer to that question, you'd be kicking back in the carribean posting on HPC, not having to earn a living.... :-)

On my mum - the only important thing to me is that she lives where she wants to and does not need to worry. She could do all sorts of things more efficiently, but really, that is of secondary importance to me.

[Bland Unsight]

...

Why am I bothering with this discussion? I think it is worth providing a counterpoint to two memes on here. Firstly that all landlords are evil blood suckers - I certainly don't think I am evil, and I'm pretty sure the tenants don't either. Agents on the other hand most certainly are.... Secondly, I think it is worth saying that there are a large number of people out there who are not over extended, not vulnerable, and can afford to ride out what will effectively be margin calls. 50% of owner occupiers have paid off their mortgages - so in an HPC they will see paper numbers decline, but they won't be forced to sell.

Eh? Nobody is forced to sell by falling house prices. That was never the case. People used to be forced to sell when they couldn't pay their mortgages at the end of month, though that's gone out of fashion outside the BTL sector. Even in the BTL sector exceptions are made if you're a crass toad-faced muppet who owns half of Ashford.

Back in owner-occupier land, nobody is forced to sell, ever. They are called zombie households, staggering towards a grim future with a debt they'll never be able to pay loaded onto a very ordinary house that is supposedly at some point somehow magically going to transform itself from a millstone into a pension, (though looking back on it the mortgage broker may have been sketchy on the details on the how, why and when of the magic beans doing their magic bean thing - though there was that bit when he tapped on a calculator and I was distracted by something shiny - I think it was a tie-pin - maybe I missed something at that point?).

[Venger]

That's quite funny SleepWell... I can imagine you doing the rounds to your tenants in the SLK Range Rover.

For lo! It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich landlord to enter the gates of heaven, unless he does it in his wife's Mercedes SLK, that'd be OK.

Can't speak for Venger, but personally, I'd prefer to be bitter and resentful towards BTLers than be a BTLer.

Their [bTLers] spivvy, greed and wealth, that they think was achieved through their canny cleverness, but in reality is acquired by being nothing more important than a letting agent for a banks, has wrecked this country for many, including their own children - which isn't really intelligent, is it ?

Some will share HPI profits out with their kids - although seen an instance where a daughter has refused it... actually snubbing her multi-millionaire BTL mother (40+ houses), and telling her market is unfair and twisted.

Oh I forgot to mention the SLK was returned a couple of months early on its lease as we had exceeded the contract mileage and the mileage excess and a pair of rear tyres that would have been needed would have cost more than the last couple of rental payments.

She loves her new Range Rover Vogue.

[sleepwello'nights]

Tell me, have you worked out how to use cut and paste in IE 11 in Windows 8 or are you using a different browser?

[Venger]

Tell me, have you worked out how to use cut and paste in IE 11 in Windows 8 or are you using a different browser?

For what it's worth this computer runs on Windows 7, using Firefox and Chrome browsers. Other computer sometimes use is on Linux Zorin (the simplest entry level Linux I could find).

I've no experience with Win 8; the lack of start-button on original release and the look of the layout put me off from upgrading. I am having pasting problems myself at the moment (copying and highlighting) this laser mouse seems to have had its day.