TheCountOfNowhere Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 first rangers fc ltd were liquidated. now hearts go into administration. the most remarkable thing about this though is this post i found on the hibernian fc, their local rivals, forum....someone gets it. http://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?247788-Financial-meltdown-(HMFC-apply-to-appoint-administrators)/page654 Kickback is absolutely golden this evening. Here's an amusing eulogy.If you want to waste energy on who to blame then on you go. However this is the consequence of the end of the silly days of cheap money. The western world has been living beyond its means since the markets were de regulated in the 1980s. This is he inevitable consequence of putting our banks, companies and football clus in the hands of spivs and stockjobbers who wooed all of us, Prime Ministers and Presidents included. I'm only surprised it didn't happen 5 years ago when Lehmans went under. Many richer and more profitable companies have since gone to the wall. Sadly, like the Icelandic Banks it looks as if Ukias was an elaborate tower of toxic debt and confusing loans and liabilities, much like our own RBS or HBOS - the difference being that it was a lot smaller and has been allowed to fail. I suspect that Vlad and his cohorts, would have seen the writing was on the wall and have been trousering the cash from across the group for months. How much Fedo knew about this is a matter for debate but I suspect he, like many of Vlad's employees has been left out to dry like the rest of us.Perhaps now Rangers, Dunfermline and Hearts are now gone, and mark my words others will follow Doncaster etc will realise that the current model in Scottish football is a joke. Woe betide Hibs who whilst any Hibb will tell you have kept within their means, actually depend on being able to sell players to keep their heads above water. However in a market with les and less liquidity will there be a demand for their fayer?during the OFGTF campaign about 10 years ago I was arguing on here that it was time to put a broo through Scottish football, to realise that the current model was unsustainable and we should move to a central player pool and draft modle that gives equal budgets across the league and a level playing field would re invigorate the game in Scotland. However, just as we have completely ignored the dangers of a housing market linked to credit worthieness which caused the last housing bubble and are now embarked on doing exactly the same thing, the SPL sticks its fingers in its ears and goes nananananananana....seriously, don't go down the blame route - Vlad will get caught eventually and will end his days in an eastern gaol.We now have to put our energy an support into getting our club back on its feet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Hovis Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Interesting to see football linked thorugh Hearts' owners to the debt bubble. I think he may be a bit optimistic, clubs who have lived within their means for years see speculator after speculator pour money and debt into their rivals who race past them before going pop (Portsmouth, FA cup winners, the most recent big bang) and falling back down the leagues past them. But there is always another dreamer / gambler / chancer who will repeat for their own club. Maybe FFP will change that, it's a good first step anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 Interesting to see football linked thorugh Hearts' owners to the debt bubble. I think he may be a bit optimistic, clubs who have lived within their means for years see speculator after speculator pour money and debt into their rivals who race past them before going pop (Portsmouth, FA cup winners, the most recent big bang) and falling back down the leagues past them. But there is always another dreamer / gambler / chancer who will repeat for their own club. Maybe FFP will change that, it's a good first step anyway. in England, yes. in Scotland, its different. two or three clubs have gone in recent years. rangers being the biggest. no one wanted them or their debt so they died. replaced by a new club. there's not the money or glamour in Scottish football. is this a vision of the game in England though? im just astounded by the, i think correct, assumption the over spending in the Scottish game is linked to the credit bubble. banks were .busy to lend million to the likes of rangers, loose lending has destroyed more than our ability to purchase a house at a sensible price! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Knimbies who say No Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Interesting to see football linked thorugh Hearts' owners to the debt bubble. I think he may be a bit optimistic, clubs who have lived within their means for years see speculator after speculator pour money and debt into their rivals who race past them before going pop (Portsmouth, FA cup winners, the most recent big bang) and falling back down the leagues past them. But there is always another dreamer / gambler / chancer who will repeat for their own club. Maybe FFP will change that, it's a good first step anyway. I guess part of the problem us the sums of money required are so large that a local businessman with a soft spot for the local team has no chance of getting in on it. It's a spiv's playground, or serious international outfits only. Back in Wallace Mercer's day at Hearts, I remember him saying in an interview that as part of raising the money to take over the club, he remortgaged his house. I dunno what sort of gaff you'd need to do that these days, fitba is bout the only thing that makes HPI in the UK look sluggish. It's screwed, but it's for the best. Whose next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 I guess part of the problem us the sums of money required are so large that a local businessman with a soft spot for the local team has no chance of getting in on it. It's a spiv's playground, or serious international outfits only. Back in Wallace Mercer's day at Hearts, I remember him saying in an interview that as part of raising the money to take over the club, he remortgaged his house. I dunno what sort of gaff you'd need to do that these days, fitba is bout the only thing that makes HPI in the UK look sluggish. It's screwed, but it's for the best. Whose next? With a bit of luck it'll be Wolves and Redrow owner Steve Morgan. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-xP-WXmVHo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Hearts debt was initially from the bank of Scotland. However this got transferred over to UBIG/Ukios bank (Lithuania) after Vlad took over. So essentially hearts owed money to themselves. All fine and dandy until UBIG/Ukios got into trouble. Its a total mess. I think it was pretty obvious Scottish football was living beyond its means when Giovanni Di Stefano took control of Dundee and they signed players like Ravanelli and Canigia. Not to mention st Mirren almost signing Ronaldhino. Yes you did read that correctly. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Hearts debt was initially from the bank of Scotland. However this got transferred over to UBIG/Ukios bank (Lithuania) after Vlad took over. So essentially hearts owed money to themselves. All fine and dandy until UBIG/Ukios got into trouble. Its a total mess. I think it was pretty obvious Scottish football was living beyond its means when Giovanni Di Stefano took control of Dundee and they signed players like Ravanelli and Canigia. Not to mention st Mirren almost signing Ronaldhino. Yes you did read that correctly. . . I don't know the ins & outs at Hearts, but didn't Romanov's bank go tits up, so Hearts debts were transferred to the liquidator? I wonder how much the stadium land & training ground land is worth? Could something start afresh, perhaps groundsharing with Hibs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Its definitely a complicated affair. Security over the ground and also the debt are apparently to different parts of UBIG. Now we have administrators involved they should be able to get to the bottom of it. As for the ground - worth perhaps a third of what it was in 2007 won't be much interest in it. Ground sharing was discussed years back but nothing came of it. Neither set of fans would be happy but who knows now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Our training ground is leased from Heriot Watt uNiversity - so its another liability rather than an asset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 I don't know the ins & outs at Hearts, but didn't Romanov's bank go tits up, so Hearts debts were transferred to the liquidator? I wonder how much the stadium land & training ground land is worth? Has to be worth a few quid. It's walking distance to the town center ( if you like a walk ) and a prime residential area. How much is it worth....much less than it used to be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashinmattress Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Hmm. It's hardly a surprise. Pretty much ALL premier league team are in debt, some massively to the tune of £100++ million. £1.6 billion paid out in wages in the league. Shocking. Concisely, almost ALL big teams are in serious financial woes, absolutely haemorrhaging money every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Has to be worth a few quid. It's walking distance to the town center ( if you like a walk ) and a prime residential area. How much is it worth....much less than it used to be It wouldn't get full planning permission as its next to hazardous waste from the brewery next door. The existing flats and school clearly were immune to any sort of danger though There are also plenty of brownfield sites in the surrounding area with planning permission that have Sat empty for years. You also have the large costs of removal of the stadium. Maybe 5 million if we are very very lucky. Our debt is 25. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 It wouldn't get full planning permission as its next to hazardous waste from the brewery next door. The existing flats and school clearly were immune to any sort of danger though There are also plenty of brownfield sites in the surrounding area with planning permission that have Sat empty for years. You also have the large costs of removal of the stadium. Maybe 5 million if we are very very lucky. Our debt is 25. Don't worry, I have a plan.... Get liquidated, the debt will magically disappear, no one will be out of pocket so dont worry about that....start up a new company, make loads of threats, join the third division as an associate member then start telling everyone you are the same club ( ( or lining the pockets of the media to do so on your behalf, it somehow makes it all so much more believable ). No wait...no one with half a brain will fall for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 Hmm. It's hardly a surprise. Pretty much ALL premier league team are in debt, some massively to the tune of £100++ million. £1.6 billion paid out in wages in the league. Shocking. Concisely, almost ALL big teams are in serious financial woes, absolutely haemorrhaging money every year. Man United: "http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22651038" "It still has about £307m in debts, but has continued to enjoy on-field success under the Glazers, with five Premier League titles and one Champions League victory." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Man United: "http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22651038" "It still has about £307m in debts, but has continued to enjoy on-field success under the Glazers, with five Premier League titles and one Champions League victory." ...all under SAF...and now he's gone...measure that ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eight Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Don't worry, I have a plan.... Get liquidated, the debt will magically disappear, no one will be out of pocket so dont worry about that....start up a new company, make loads of threats, join the third division as an associate member then start telling everyone you are the same club ( ( or lining the pockets of the media to do so on your behalf, it somehow makes it all so much more believable ). No wait...no one with half a brain will fall for that. My local club, Darlington (now Darlington 1883) did the same, but got relegated to the 9th tier for their troubles. Playing non league football in a 25000 seat stadium is never a good plan. Although the non league rugby club have bought it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 My local club, Darlington (now Darlington 1883) did the same, but got relegated to the 9th tier for their troubles. Playing non league football in a 25000 seat stadium is never a good plan. Although the non league rugby club have bought it now. I'm not being funny, but if they were liquidated then you have to say they are not the same club. Were they relegated or did they reapply and enter the league for the first time at the 9th teir ? From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darlington_1883 "Darlington 1883 is an English football club that currently plays at Heritage Park, Bishop Auckland. The company Darlington 1883 Limited was incorporated on 18 Jan 2012[2] and went on to purchase the assets of Darlington Football Club on 3 May 2012 when a Creditors Voluntary Agreement could not be agreed with creditors.[3] The FA considers Darlington 1883 to be a 'New Club'.[4]" If you are liquidated with debts, the very least you can do when you restart is try not to pretend you the entity that died leaving people out pf pocket. Have some respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Its what rangers have done. I am quite surprised they haven't fallen foul of phoenix company regulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 Its what rangers have done. I am quite surprised they haven't fallen foul of phoenix company regulations. It's what rangers have tried, are trying, to do. No one believes the rubbish they and the Scottish media spout about same club/same history, the club and company is different. If you ask me they should be taken to task about this. It seems to suit a lot of people to spout this, but for anyone left out of pocket by their liquidation or real football fans the world over it's a total insult. I can clear up the club/company thing quickly and easily though... As they say...a picture is worth a 1000 words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eight Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 I'm not being funny, but if they were liquidated then you have to say they are not the same club. Were they relegated or did they reapply and enter the league for the first time at the 9th teir ? None of this is very clear. They like to refer to themselves as a "continuation" club, or somesuch. In terms of records, history etc. it's all theirs - it was only the debts they wanted to be relieved of! I'm pretty sure they were forcibly relegated as a penalty from the FA, rather than being reconceived at that level. The whole story is a sorry example of hubris and dodgy finances very fitting for this website. What is telling is that all of the "white knights" who were linked with saving the club were property developers of one kind or another. It's the only show in town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 None of this is very clear. They like to refer to themselves as a "continuation" club, or somesuch. In terms of records, history etc. it's all theirs - it was only the debts they wanted to be relieved of! I'm pretty sure they were forcibly relegated as a penalty from the FA, rather than being reconceived at that level. The whole story is a sorry example of hubris and dodgy finances very fitting for this website. What is telling is that all of the "white knights" who were linked with saving the club were property developers of one kind or another. It's the only show in town. I'm afraid any right minded sports fan/human being would agree that it is crystal clear, you forgo certain rights when your club is liquidated...that being the right to claim to be that club and all that entails. If fans of any dead club want to pretend otherwise then that's their look out. For me that just makes them idiots of the highest order. Hopefully Hearts with survive through a CVA and continue trading, I have my doubts though. I don't think Scotland can afford to loose it's 2nd and 3rd biggest clubs in just over a year. This whole process where you can enter administration then magically write off debts and continue on as if nothing has happened ( not just for football clubs ) needs to be legislated against, it's happening all too often now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest eight Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 This whole process where you can enter administration then magically write off debts and continue on as if nothing has happened ( not just for football clubs ) needs to be legislated against, it's happening all too often now. What should happen is that local suppliers become wary of extending credit to football clubs - particularly those who have been burned once already. Sadly I think some will decide the risk is worth it to obtain the business. I also think HMRC should require more frequent returns than normal, or some kind of deposit scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hail the Tripod Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 When Rangers were liquidated, it seemed likely it would cause a cascade collapse in the SPL. The Celtic fans at work all laughed at the possibility that Rangers collapse could eventually bring down Celtic. We'll see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 When Rangers were liquidated, it seemed likely it would cause a cascade collapse in the SPL. The Celtic fans at work all laughed at the possibility that Rangers collapse could eventually bring down Celtic. We'll see... There's a couple of arguments that maybe rangers spending has helped collapse scottish football as teams tried to compete. Rangers were possible the problem, not the solution. Hearts in any case were in trouble a long time before rangers went belly up. There's also the argument that rangers being liquidated is great for Scottish football as the other teams will get a fair go and drag Celtic back to meet them, thus giving more, fairer competition. Like every industry, these zombie companies dying and letting new, better run companies replace them is no bad thing. It's a shame it didn't happen to the banks. It's a shame the current law allows a 'similar' entity to start up right away and trade as if nothing had happened. Seems wrong to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Rangers demise has had very little negative impact on other clubs. Any issues they are having are to do with their shocking management - and nothing to do with the blue side of Glasgow disappearing for a few years. Its barely been noticed to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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