interestrateripoff Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?_r=1&ref=business When Barack Obama joined Silicon Valley’s top luminaries for dinner in California last February, each guest was asked to come with a question for the president. But as Steven P. Jobs of Apple spoke, President Obama interrupted with an inquiry of his own: what would it take to make iPhones in the United States? Not long ago, Apple boasted that its products were made in America. Today, few are. Almost all of the 70 million iPhones, 30 million iPads and 59 million other products Apple sold last year were manufactured overseas. Why can’t that work come home? Mr. Obama asked. Mr. Jobs’s reply was unambiguous. “Those jobs aren’t coming back,” he said, according to another dinner guest. The president’s question touched upon a central conviction at Apple. It isn’t just that workers are cheaper abroad. Rather, Apple’s executives believe the vast scale of overseas factories as well as the flexibility, diligence and industrial skills of foreign workers have so outpaced their American counterparts that “Made in the U.S.A.” is no longer a viable option for most Apple products. .. Apple employs 43,000 people in the United States and 20,000 overseas, a small fraction of the over 400,000 American workers at General Motors in the 1950s, or the hundreds of thousands at General Electric in the 1980s. Many more people work for Apple’s contractors: an additional 700,000 people engineer, build and assemble iPads, iPhones and Apple’s other products. But almost none of them work in the United States. Instead, they work for foreign companies in Asia, Europe and elsewhere, at factories that almost every electronics designer relies upon to build their wares. .. Apple executives say that going overseas, at this point, is their only option. One former executive described how the company relied upon a Chinese factory to revamp iPhone manufacturing just weeks before the device was due on shelves. Apple had redesigned the iPhone’s screen at the last minute, forcing an assembly line overhaul. New screens began arriving at the plant near midnight. A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day. “The speed and flexibility is breathtaking,” the executive said. “There’s no American plant that can match that.” American workers don't want to sleep on site, they'd rather sleep at home. More like slave labour is what corporations want to manufacture devices. I doubt Americans really want these types of jobs back and when the penny drops for the Chinese workers they won't want to do this either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I was only telling a friend of mine today, who has strong opinions on Tesco and MacDonalds - will not step in either, that she seriously needs to reconsider her iphone adoration. Apple's shares are 300 bucks - how they make those profits to get that share price is, IMPO, disgusting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doahh Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I remember reading an article on the large number of suicide cases amoung workers in a country that treated their staff this way. I am sure that the world could have waited and extra 8-10 hours so that the workers could get some sleep. The executives seem to think this is great, I think the executives should all be fired for being inhumane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I've just finished the official Steve Jobs biography and in it there is mention of this meeting. Although in the bio, I think Jobs tells Obama that the US needs to start training engineers - he said there weren't actually 30,000 manufacturing engineers in the USA to hire even if they wanted to. How much of this is chicken and egg though? Any young kid watching factories in their hometown get offshored is unlikely to commit their (expensive) tertiary education to a field that is disappearing in front of their eyes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pl1 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Welcome to globalisation 21st Century style. What effect will rising inflation in these countries have over the next decade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfp123 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/business/apple-america-and-a-squeezed-middle-class.html?_r=1&ref=business American workers don't want to sleep on site, they'd rather sleep at home. More like slave labour is what corporations want to manufacture devices. I doubt Americans really want these types of jobs back and when the penny drops for the Chinese workers they won't want to do this either. well its different though becuase they are at an earlier stage of their development. they dont really have the luxury of nice houses to go home to. also it depends on the image you have of dorms. how is it any different from living in a halls of residence or boarding school? even at the uks top universities the halls can be a bit of a dive. the foxconn campus is literally is a city though. no doubt the dorms arent going to be star residencies and will be very basic but hows that any different to any of the 100's of appalling low cost council blocks built in the UK across the country. Edited January 21, 2012 by mfp123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedgefunded Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I think the problem here is that for every person who has a moral issue with Apple, there are 100 who follow the "Shiny thing make it better" mantra. My opinion of most of the human race is pretty low, especially Western consumers. All they want is the newest thing for the lowest price. They care not where it came from. If there were two iPhones and one had a 10% longer battery life because it used a human foetus as a power source, it would sell. Consumers, I spit on them. p.s - Yes, I do have an iPhone. It's 2nd hand, 3 years old, and it's powered by the standard battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 well its different though becuase they are at an earlier stage of their development. they dont really have the luxury of nice houses to go home to. also it depends on the image you have of dorms. how is it any different from living in a halls of residence or boarding school? even at the uks top universities the halls can be a bit of a dive. the foxconn campus is literally is a city though. no doubt the dorms arent going to be star residencies and will be very basic but hows that any different to any of the 100's of appalling low cost council blocks built in the UK across the country. That's because 64m homes are standing empty.... If only they got paid more money to buy the houses that are empty..... Never lived in halls, so can't offer an opinion on that. However I doubt that in student halls you get the Prof turning up at midnight demanding everyone gets up to attend his lecture he's just finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
200p Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I don't have a iphone and buy very little in the shops, but if everyone didn't consume tat, would these people have any work at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 p.s - Yes, I do have an iPhone. It's 2nd hand, 3 years old, and it's powered by the standard battery. Well, that's alright then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfp123 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) That's because 64m homes are standing empty.... If only they got paid more money to buy the houses that are empty..... Never lived in halls, so can't offer an opinion on that. However I doubt that in student halls you get the Prof turning up at midnight demanding everyone gets up to attend his lecture he's just finished. its supposedly a 24 hour city so they work in shifts around the clock. i would have thought the day workers and night shift workers cant occupy the same factory space at the same time. you cant really compare the UK today with china today. you should compare china today with the uk/us during industrial times. no doubt once they become more wealthy they dont want to live in dorms when they can afford their own space, and were probably already seeing labour unions etc forming like they did in the UK. we went through exactly the same process. Edited January 21, 2012 by mfp123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Woods? Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I remember reading an article on the large number of suicide cases amoung workers in a country that treated their staff this way. I am sure that the world could have waited and extra 8-10 hours so that the workers could get some sleep. The executives seem to think this is great, I think the executives should all be fired for being inhumane. I'm sure there would be more suicides if their cells had accessible ligature points... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 its supposedly a 24 hour city so they work in shifts around the clock. i would have thought the day workers and night shift workers cant occupy the same factory space at the same time. 24 hour operation is not completely out of the ordinary for a modern factory, even one in Europe. Nissan Sunderland have been running 24 hours a day since 2000. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/4463992/Nissan-Sunderland-workers-agree-to-24-hour-operation.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Woods? Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 well its different though becuase they are at an earlier stage of their development. they dont really have the luxury of nice houses to go home to. also it depends on the image you have of dorms. how is it any different from living in a halls of residence or boarding school? even at the uks top universities the halls can be a bit of a dive. the foxconn campus is literally is a city though. no doubt the dorms arent going to be star residencies and will be very basic but hows that any different to any of the 100's of appalling low cost council blocks built in the UK across the country. Auschwitz had publicity photographs like that. As to not having nice homes to go to, perhaps they could use some of the 64.5 million flats that are sitting empty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfp123 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 24 hour operation is not completely out of the ordinary for a modern factory, even one in Europe. Nissan Sunderland have been running 24 hours a day since 2000. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/4463992/Nissan-Sunderland-workers-agree-to-24-hour-operation.html isnt that one of the most efficient car plants in the world now as well. its the best in europe for sure. also highly flexible and able to change production at short notice and run overtime over weekends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfp123 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Auschwitz had publicity photographs like that. As to not having nice homes to go to, perhaps they could use some of the 64.5 million flats that are sitting empty? why is having millions of empty homes a bad thing. they have built entire cities to cater for future growth, and massive infrastructure work which right now probably arent fully utilised anywhere near capacity but provide the basis for the future. the problem in the uk is we dont do any of these things anymore. people complain when we want to build a high speed rail line or an airport, which takes several decades to do due to red tape. Edited January 21, 2012 by mfp123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Self Employed Youth Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 24 hour operation is not completely out of the ordinary for a modern factory, even one in Europe. Nissan Sunderland have been running 24 hours a day since 2000. http://www.telegraph...-operation.html We used to do 12 hour shifts, four on four off, I did nights. I enjoyed the pattern, sometimes get in 84 hours a week if overtime were plenty. The factory didn't shut over xmas even, only full time staff got offered that shift and it paid about quadruple! Far better to the 5 on 2 off, 8 hours a day malarky. I'd personally prefer 16 hour shifts. 3 of them and job don for the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffneck Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Sorry but they make Intel and AMD CPUS in the USA so i don't see why they can't make iphones there also. Especially at the ridiculous prices apple charges. As the for skilled worker thing the work is all done by machines so i'm not really buying that. Edited January 21, 2012 by Ruffneck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garf Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Auschwitz had publicity photographs like that. If it did, I'm not aware of them. More to the point, the sweatshops of China are not comparable to Nazi concentration and extermination camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exiges Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I don't have a iphone and buy very little in the shops, but if everyone didn't consume tat, would these people have any work at all? Very good point, what was their standard of living before they made iPhones ? Sure, their conditions seem a little bleak compared to Western standards, but surely they chose to work there because it was better than what they had before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cells Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Sorry but they make Intel and AMD CPUS in the USA so i don't see why they can't make iphones there also. Especially at the ridiculous prices apple charges. As the for skilled worker thing the work is all done by machines so i'm not really buying that. You have kind of answered your own questions. High tech more often than not means machines make the items not men. So there are no millions of jobs in the sector. For instance, once upon a time the steel plant I used to work for had 30,000 men working at the site. Now it has 2,000 and they produce a lot more steel at much higher grades than in the past. With ever more advanced manufacturing and robotics we will use less and less and less people per product. Just like farming now represents only sub 2% of the workforce manufacturing has and will go the same way I suppose the important thing for a country is to try and have the big high capital plants in place before this transition takes place. once you are a leader you will stay a leader after that point. The shit thing about UK manufacturing is that no one wants to put money down on it. I used to work for one company that wouldnt even consider paying for anything which took more than 2 years payback!! A factory could be a multi decade investment not a 2 year fling The future is just a continuation of the last 4 decades where we all just work less and less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEW247 Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Auschwitz had publicity photographs like that. As to not having nice homes to go to, perhaps they could use some of the 64.5 million flats that are sitting empty? And I can vouch for how tragic these places are having spent 3 days walking around a Foxconn plant during one of my site visits over summer. It was actually so sad and depressing that when I got back to the hotel I was very close to tears - Seeing the scramble nets at first floor level around all the buildings really did it for me. The staff live on site and work 12 hours per day 6 days per week. My visit was even halted whilst they had their 90 min sleep for lunch break. edit for typo Edited January 21, 2012 by SEW247 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gone baby gone Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Sorry but they make Intel and AMD CPUS in the USA so i don't see why they can't make iphones there also. Apparently chip fab is highly automated, so not very labour intensive. Assembly of computers and other consumer electronics is however much more labour intensive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cells Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Very good point, what was their standard of living before they made iPhones ? Sure, their conditions seem a little bleak compared to Western standards, but surely they chose to work there because it was better than what they had before. It is a fallacy to think that one group cannot exploit another. it happens all the time Saying they were better off before doesn’t excuse their bosses if they are getting an unfair deal. BTW I am not suggesting that they are. A lot of people in the UK would be quite happy to work a manual job in a factory 12h a day and live onsite. Hell millions of people in the UK work many many more hours than the norm 40h for well below minimum wage and absolutely no social protection It is called the black market. It exists; millions earn their daily bread with it. We just write a pretty little law and pretend it doesn’t exist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cells Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 And I can vouch for how tragic these places are having spent 3 days walking around a Foxconn plant during one of my site visits over summer. It was actually so sad and depressing that when I got back to the hotel I was very close to tears - Seeing the scramble nets at first floor level around all the buildings really did it for me. The staff live on site and work 12 hours per day 6 days per week. My visit was even halted whilst they had their 90 min sleep for lunch break. edit for typo I think my record is nearly 300 days without a single one off were I must have averaged more than 11h a day. Working many hours isn’t a problem assuming you do it freely and it isn’t forced upon you directly or indirectly. I can tell you one thing though, before a country is industrialised the majority are subsistence farmers. In the UK we have a quant idea of a small holding were everyone is happy farming and living off the land. Reality is that it is for most a very shit existence. You just about produce enough to feed yourself. Medical care is near enough non existent or more likely the local con man/woman who pretends to cure your aliments with various voodoo or rubbing salts or some nonsense. The people of china will on average live a much easier life in 10 years than they did 10 years ago. Some groups some of the time will pay a price. But IMHO it is worth paying to rid yourself of subsistence farming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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