aa3 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Using the free trade and immigration policies that have been used for other professions.. if we can get Indians and Nigerians who pass the same testing. and are willing to work for a fraction of the cost then that is what we should do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Your comparison with teachers is risible. Any graduate can train to be a teacher. It takes a year. If they had a good candidate (and wished to do away with petty tick box type training) they could reduce this to a few months. It takes the best part of a decade to train a doctor. You seem to be living in a dream world. Virtually every profession maintains barriers to entry - be it law, accountancy, dentistry or medicine. Picking on the barriers to entry in one profession (teaching) doesn't exactly validate the barriers to entry in another (medicine) edit: Semantics. Sauce for the goose... Edited January 19, 2012 by Charlton Peston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 It takes the best part of a decade to train a doctor. A ten year training period doesn't automatically imply that doctors should be on over four times the average salary. For most of that time the trainees are being paid a salary, and the taxpayer pays for most of the training costs. After the last depression 80 years ago, income inequality fell a long way. If this is repeated, almost everybody will earn about the same again. Doctors are no exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Semantics. So if tomorrow apples cost £20 a kg in the UK and £100 a kg in the USA, you would say British people are underpaying for apples? Or are apples too expensive in both countries? It's definitely not semantics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfunk Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Virtually every profession maintains barriers to entry - be it law, accountancy, dentistry or medicine. Picking on the barriers to entry in one profession (teaching) doesn't exactly validate the barriers to entry in another (medicine) What would happen if you radically lowered the barriers of entry to medicine as compared to teaching? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 What would happen if you radically lowered the barriers of entry to medicine as compared to teaching? Do you the need the better part of 10 years training to perform the role currently undertaken by GPs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thirdwave Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Using the free trade and immigration policies that have been used for other professions.. if we can get Indians and Nigerians who pass the same testing. and are willing to work for a fraction of the cost then that is what we should do. has been tried.didn`t work http://www.healthcareworkforce.nhs.uk/mti/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfunk Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 So if tomorrow apples cost £20 a kg in the UK and £100 a kg in the USA, you would say British people are underpaying for apples? Or are apples too expensive in both countries? It's definitely not semantics. It has nothing to do with apples. Your analogy is pointless. If they get paid more in the USA then there is an incentive to leave irrespective of your subjective opinion of their pay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfunk Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Do you the need the better part of 10 years training to perform the role currently undertaken by GPs? No being a GP is the easy option. Possibly best part of 5 years. I would expect more than 10 years for consultants though. Teachers - 6 months tops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 If they get paid more in the USA then there is an incentive to leave irrespective of your subjective opinion of their pay. Fine, they can leave and get caught up in the bursting of the American medicine bubble, like a BTLer charging in headlong in 2006. And my opinion on doctors' remuneration may be subjective, but as a taxpayer I am one of the people paying it, and I think we could probably pay doctors about half of what they get now in lifetime benefits and still have enough of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Didn't the ancient chinese only pay their doctors when they were well? I hadnt heard that. Of course if you think about it, that is what we do in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) No being a GP is the easy option. Possibly best part of 5 years. I would expect more than 10 years for consultants though. Teachers - 6 months tops. I've been through teacher training (though I am not a teacher) and to become a good teacher to a level where you'd put them in charge of a class on their own I'd say 12-18 months, plus a relevant degree behind that which is another 3 years or so But, no matter, this thread's about medics. From what I understand of what GP's do as a lay person I'd say 3-5 years which puts them in the same league as a science graduate with a masters. How many of them are picking up £100k+? Edited January 19, 2012 by Charlton Peston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicestersq Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 For surgeons and specialists I could understand salaries worth well over six figures. £110k for a run of the mill GP working 9-5 and handing out smarties to pensioners.. talk about a sinecure! I'd like to see pharmacists have more powers to prescribe basic prescription drugs over the counter.. that would take some of the pressure off our overworked GPs. If some GP's had one five minute consultation a day that would be put down as overwork. There is a clear problem with GP pay and pensions. I cant see anyway out of this other than for the government to play hardball. The pension scheme needs to be turned into a private one, so that there is no open ended taxpayer obligation, and the basic salary needs to be brought down from the stratosphere. No one is saying that doctors shouldnt receive above average earnings, but a cap on salaries at £150k for state employed doctors would be a start. Average of £75 grand a year for GP's? These are very generous salaries, even if they are a huge cut on what is available now. I bet a lot of GP's feel guilty about all of this too, seeing people work hard for a minimum wage, unable to afford things that would help keep them healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfunk Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Fine, they can leave and get caught up in the bursting of the American medicine bubble, like a BTLer charging in headlong in 2006. And my opinion on doctors' remuneration may be subjective, but as a taxpayer I am one of the people paying it, and I think we could probably pay doctors about half of what they get now in lifetime benefits and still have enough of them. Nothing like a BTLer charging in headlong in 2006. Like your apple analogy you are miles off. The value of a doctor is in their training and skills. Doctors can work where the hell they want to. Every country needs doctors - desperate for them in fact, especially well trained ones in top hospitals in Europe and USA. So if the American medecine bubble bursts they will happily take themselves wherever else they want to go where they will get paid handsomely too. Then if that place goes tits up they will move again. What you "think we could probably pay" has more to do with your own prejudice rather than reality. Lets pay them all £10k the greedy useless bastards. That'll teach 'em. Mug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfunk Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I've been through teacher training (though I am not a teacher) and to become a good teacher to a level where you'd put them in charge of a class on their own I'd say 12-18 months, plus a relevant degree behind that which is another 3 years or so But, no matter, this thread's about medics. From what I understand of what GP's do as a lay person I'd say 3-5 years which puts them in the same league as a science graduate with a masters. How many of them are picking up £100k+? Only the 3 years spent at uni by a Media Studies/English/History student is hardly comparable to the first three years of medical school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Only the 3 years spent at uni by a Media Studies/English/History student is hardly comparable to the first three years of medical school. I wasn't arguing for parity I was just indicating that the 6 month training figure was disingenuous. I also believe that some schools still teach maths and science as well as media studies That's also why I made the comparison between a GP and a science graduate with a masters, not a media studies graduate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfunk Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I wasn't arguing for parity I was just indicating that the 6 month training figure was disingenuous. I also believe that some schools still teach maths and science as well as media studies That's also why I made the comparison between a GP and a science graduate with a masters, not a media studies graduate I think you could train the average doctor to be a teacher in 6 months. I don't think you could ever train the average teacher to be a doctor. Ever. Look buddy, I'm sorry you have a chip on your shoulder about training as a teacher but the two professions are not comparable. We can debate it all you like, but most people in the real world know enough teachers to know that they aren't all that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfunk Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 yaya. and this from the man who's telling us that as far as doctors and deflations are concerned,'it's different this time'. I'm not saying anything about deflation or it being "different this time". Doctors have always always always been in high demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I think you could train the average doctor to be a teacher in 6 months. I don't think you could ever train the average teacher to be a doctor. Ever. Look buddy, I'm sorry you have a chip on your shoulder about training as a teacher but the two professions are not comparable. We can debate it all you like, but most people in the real world know enough teachers to know that they aren't all that. I have no chip on my shoulder about training to be a teacher and actually think the majority of newly trained teachers aren't very well trained. If I have a chip it's with exceptionalism, as advocated by any interest group So, round we go again Science Graduate (from a good university) + Masters = GP, Yes or No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack's Creation Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 What would happen if you radically lowered the barriers of entry to medicine as compared to teaching? It would be easier to become a doctor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfunk Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I have no chip on my shoulder about training to be a teacher and actually think the majority of newly trained teachers aren't very well trained. If I have a chip it's with exceptionalism, as advocated by any interest group So, round we go again Science Graduate (from a good university) + Masters = GP, Yes or No? Why are you asking me about science graduates? I never said anything about them. Just state your point instead of this rhetorical crap all the time. Yes a science graduate with a masters may be comparable to a GP. No, I imagine the average science graduate with a masters is on less than a GP. Yes this may/may not be fair. No, this isn't a valid reason to pay GPs less as they still have the option of leaving the country and going almost anywhere else they choose. If a scientist can get paid more elsewhere then (if this bothers them) they can move there. Your views on exceptionalism have no bearing on the worldwide market for doctors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 lot of people with lot of A's get turned down as doctors cuz there ain't evnough spaces. My understanding is also that supply is not limited by the availability of suitable candidates. Though, obviously, if more of those suitable candidates were trained they wouldn't be such special little snowflakes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nuggets Mahoney Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Why are you asking me about science graduates? I never said anything about them. Just state your point instead of this rhetorical crap all the time. Yes a science graduate with a masters may be comparable to a GP. No, I imagine the average science graduate with a masters is on less than a GP. Yes this may/may not be fair. No, this isn't a valid reason to pay GPs less as they still have the option of leaving the country and going almost anywhere else they choose. If a scientist can get paid more elsewhere then (if this bothers them) they can move there. Your views on exceptionalism have no bearing on the worldwide market for doctors. I'm not engaging in rhetorical crap. One of the reasons given to justify GPs' pay is the time they spend training. I'm simply suggesting that the time spent in training doesn't support comparable wages in other sectors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billfunk Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 special little snowflakes So the chip on your shoulder is about doctors not teachers then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PopGun Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Why do women teachers (regardless of age) on the most part, dress like their grandmothers? Not really helpful to the topic i know, I'm just genuinely curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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