Eu Commisions To Debate Whether The Uk Should Be Kicked Out Of Eu

[bpw]

error

Edited March 3, 2010 by bpw

[bpw]

How many of you actually read the McKinsey report on Debts and Deleveraging - if you have savings you MUST read it. Here is a link if you didn't:

http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/reports/freepass_pdfs/debt_and_deleveraging/debt_and_deleveraging_full_report.pdf

If you have read it you're probably like me and asking why doesn't a European Commisions force the UK into taking austerity measures to reduce debt levels from 470% of GDP to say 230%. In comparison Greece currently has debts of 230% of GDP.

Who is the bigger risk to financial markets? And do you now realise how London has lied about the mitigating effects of overseas assets on External debts!!! The McKinsey report shows this is and always was bunkum - strangely this point was made before:

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=109590&st=0&p=1773645&hl=external%20debts&fromsearch=1entry1773645

Clearly the UK is Europes largest risk. Note also the UKs debts cover all aspects (i.e. finance, households, business, and gvt) whereas Greece is mostly gvt debts - i.e. ones that can be paid for by raising taxes and cutting spending. The attack on Greece is actually looking more like a diversion tactic created in the UK.

I think the UK should be the one to be kicked out of the European Union. And the markets have now got wind of the blood spilling out of London. It's time for another beasting just like Black Wednesday, 16 September 1992 only this time Prime Minister Gordon Brown should be forced to resign, not the Chancellor.

Some may waive the flag and will argue this could be a good thing - but if you stop thinking patriotically and start thinking rationally you will realise the UK would suffer a deep depression, and most likely financial collapse. UK borrowing will increase dramatically and along with that so will mortgage rates. The next step would be increase defaults on loans and mortgages which puts further pressure on the economy, increasing the rate of downward spiral.

[Guillotine]

[Maybe they should review our annual contribution, we might even qualify for massive net subsidies these days.

[stormymonday_2011]

How many of you actually read the McKinsey report on Debts and Deleveraging - if you have savings you MUST read it. Here is a link if you didn't:

http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/reports/freepass_pdfs/debt_and_deleveraging/debt_and_deleveraging_full_report.pdf

If you have read it you're probably like me and asking why doesn't a European Commisions force the UK into taking austerity measures to reduce debt levels from 470% of GDP to say 230%. In comparison Greece currently has debts of 230% of GDP.

Who is the bigger risk to financial markets? And do you now realise how London has lied about the mitigating effects of overseas assets on External debts!!! The McKinsey report shows this is and always was bunkum - strangely this point was made before:

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=109590&st=0&p=1773645&hl=external%20debts&fromsearch=1entry1773645

Clearly the UK is Europes largest risk. Note also the UKs debts cover all aspects (i.e. finance, households, business, and gvt) whereas Greece is mostly gvt debts - i.e. ones that can be paid for by raising taxes and cutting spending. The attack on Greece is actually looking more like a diversion tactic created in the UK.

I think the UK should be the one to be kicked out of the European Union. And the markets have now got wind of the blood spilling out of London. It's time for another beasting just like Black Wednesday, 16 September 1992 only this time Prime Minister Gordon Brown should be forced to resign, not the Chancellor.

Some may waive the flag and will argue this could be a good thing - but if you stop thinking patriotically and start thinking rationally you will realise the UK would suffer a deep depression, and most likely financial collapse. UK borrowing will increase dramatically and along with that so will mortgage rates. The next step would be increase defaults on loans and mortgages which puts further pressure on the economy, increasing the rate of downward spiral.

This would n't be the same McKinsey snake oil 'consultants' who are only too happy to take money off HMG.

[Toilet-Currency]

I think the UK should be the one to be kicked out of the European Union.

what good would it do the EU? it certainly wouldn't prevent contagion in their banks. But it would end the commission's legal say in UK affairs, which probably fills them with horror.

It is, however, somewhat anomalous that if any eurozone country (e.g. Greece) were to leave the euro, they would have to leave the EU (under current treaties). But I'm sure they could fix that pretty quickly if they had to.

Edited March 3, 2010 by Toilet-Currency

[Bloo Loo]

Lucky for us, we are not a PLC and dont need a balance sheet showing a profit.

[TGP]

Well it's your ignorance letting you down here.......

Firstly, No-one is talking about kicking Greece out of the EU............ but out of the EURO. Even if they are kicked from the euro, they will remain part of the EU (barring a decision on their part to leave in a huff).

We can't be kicked out of the euro, because (of course) we aren't in it.

Thats why they are talking about kicking the greeks and not us.

Secondly, they are talking about kicking them out.......... as their economic instability threatens the Euro currency itself. Our debt does not threaten their currency, only our own economy/currency. We would not drag down other EU countries with us in the same way a default by a euro nation would.

Thirdly, the issue in Greece is NOT the amount of total debt, it is the amount of govt. debt. This is what the threat is to the euro.

Fourthly, we can inflate our way out of debt........ because we control the pounds presses....... this is not an option for greece, which makes their situation more tenuous.

Fifthly, a large proportion of our debt is due to Londons status as a world financial centre. This status is a bonus for our economy, one that greece does not share and one that means the "headline indebtedness" figure should be adjusted to compensate for.

Finally, govt. debt is unsecured against assets. It is secured against tax revenues.......... This has two consequences.

a: Private debt is largely secured against assets (in the UK houses) which means your comparison of our debt and greece's is not a fair comparison unless you also deduct the "fair value" of the assets from the debt as well. We can argue over whether current house prices represent fair value, but there is certainly SOME value there to be deducted from the total.

b: Because public debt is secured against tax revenues this would force massie cuts in state expenditures/tax hikes to repay it. This threatens the stability of greek society. As our (larger) debt is not secured in this way it doesn't pose this threat (although it does pose others) only the govt. portion of our debt poses this threat.

Yours,

TGP

[yelims]

what good would it do the EU?

sanity

the idiot likes of Nigel Farage don't reflect well on UK

[tim123]

How many of you actually read the McKinsey report on Debts and Deleveraging - if you have savings you MUST read it. Here is a link if you didn't:

http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/reports/freepass_pdfs/debt_and_deleveraging/debt_and_deleveraging_full_report.pdf

If you have read it you're probably like me and asking why doesn't a European Commisions force the UK into taking austerity measures to reduce debt levels from 470% of GDP to say 230%. In comparison Greece currently has debts of 230% of GDP.

Because as we are not a part of the Euro, there is no rule allowing them to do this.

tim

[oracle]

Secondly, they are talking about kicking them out.......... as their economic instability threatens the Euro currency itself. Our debt does not threaten their currency, only our own economy/currency. We would not drag down other EU countries with us in the same way a default by a euro nation would.

We could if we threw our toys out of the pram and said sod it,we aren't going to contribute to a club that tries to rape us.

the three biggest contributors to the EU are germany,france and UK.

france aren't exactly happy with many of the rules that the EU have come out with either...but they get a nice handout from CAP which keeps them quiet....(as we've seen with this little project bullying and bribery are two weapons in it's armoury...and it is reluctant to take no for an answer)

france will find that germany still wants to wear the trousers...much as I love the german people the leadership has never given up the dream of the new reich.

...france has already voiced it's opinion with regard to a federal EU(and been ignored) in it's referendum,they would prefer a trading bloc of sovereign states much like ourselves.

[Guest tbatst2000]

Some may waive the flag and will argue this could be a good thing

Yes, it's terrible, we might end up like Switzerland god forbid. No, wait, er...

[stormymonday_2011]

There area lot of terrible things that could happen to the UK because of the current financial crisis.

Getting thrown out of the EU is not one of them.

[Guest absolutezero]

Lucky for us, we are not a PLC and dont need a balance sheet showing a profit.

Correct.

[oracle]

There area lot of terrible things that could happen to the UK because of the current financial crisis.

Getting thrown out of the EU is not one of them.

well it was tony and his club of rome pals that foisted a communist government on us in the first place.

I suppose it's law of unintended consequences.

we really can't be that arsed fighting their crusades either....so they'll probably have to start looking after themselves in future.

having US and UK doing the donkey-work may not be forthcoming .

NATO works when everybody pulls their weight...the anglo-americans have done a disporportionate amount of heavy lifting,and carry also a disproportionate amount of debt for the privilege.

we will not for ever have the capacity of world policeman....how will the EU react to china taking over the role?

[cockrobin]

I p1ss on the EU:

[bpw]

McKinsey are mediocre at best - here in the USA their staff are mostly Harvard Graduates from rich and well connected families - the later is why they get hired by corporations who at face value could do a better job in house. We have to forgive their inbreeding in order to get access to the shakers and makers with moolah. They are a bit like the UKs senior civil servants - the main difference being that Oxbridge grads are mostly shirtlifters from oxbridge who eat custard creams ;-)

This would n't be the same McKinsey snake oil 'consultants' who are only too happy to take money off HMG.

Edited March 3, 2010 by bpw

[non frog]

Yes, it's terrible, we might end up like Switzerland god forbid. No, wait, er...

You mean with a government debt of 200% of GDP?

We might get that even if we stay in.

[bpw]

[Maybe they should review our annual contribution, we might even qualify for massive net subsidies these days.

Care to post what the subsidies are in comparison with say Germany or France. CAP is just one issue not the whole picture.

[bpw]

Thanks for the challenges TGP. I take it you didn't read the report. <BR><BR>More thoughts:<BR><BR><BR><BR>

<BR>Well it's your ignorance letting you down here.......<BR><BR>Firstly, No-one is talking about kicking Greece out of the EU............ but out of the EURO. Even if they are kicked from the euro, they will remain part of the EU (barring a decision on their part to leave in a huff).

<BR><BR>We can't be kicked out of the euro, because (of course) we aren't in it.<BR><BR><BR>Thats why they are talking about kicking the greeks and not us.<BR><BR><BR>True my mistake!  However is the poster above correct in that leaving the Euro would result in them leaving the Union?<BR><BR>Sterling is pegged to the Euro and most of our trade is with Europe. By 'kicking out' I meant Europe must consider whether Britain should loose all trading priviledges with the Eurozone. Another measure would be to stop UK collaboration in say EADS or other large EU created enterprises.<BR><BR><BR>

Secondly, they are talking about kicking them out.......... as their economic instability threatens the Euro currency itself. Our debt does not threaten their currency, only our own economy/currency. We would not drag down other EU countries with us in the same way a default by a euro nation would.

<BR><BR>Agreed. <BR><BR>

Thirdly, the issue in Greece is NOT the amount of total debt, it is the amount of govt. debt. This is what the threat is to the euro.

<BR><BR>Start to disagree here. If Mckinsey are correct the issue is about leverage levels and the UK taxpayer is in a far worse position than Greece. The markets should focus on speculating against the pound.  <BR><BR><BR>

Fourthly, we can inflate our way out of debt........ because we control the pounds presses....... this is not an option for greece, which makes their situation more tenuous.

<BR><BR>How exactly does this correct the problem any better than introducing austerity measures to ensure the UK can pay off its debts. Are you saying the UK should be seen as a credit risk?<BR><BR><BR>

Fifthly, a large proportion of our debt is due to Londons status as a world financial centre. This status is a bonus for our economy, one that greece does not share and one that means the "headline indebtedness" figure should be adjusted to compensate for.

<BR><BR>WRONG - READ THE MCKINSEY RERPORT. They clearly dont agree - if you have facts that say otherwise then present them here.<BR><BR>

Finally, govt. debt is unsecured against assets. It is secured against tax revenues.......... This has two consequences.<BR><BR>a: Private debt is largely secured against assets (in the UK houses) which means your comparison of our debt and greece's is not a fair comparison unless you also deduct the "fair value" of the assets from the debt as well. We can argue over whether current house prices represent fair value, but there is certainly SOME value there to be deducted from the total.<BR>

<BR><BR>ROFL - you are brave to state this hear in the land of houseprice perma bears. Read my earlier post.<BR><BR>

b: Because public debt is secured against tax revenues this would force massie cuts in state expenditures/tax hikes to repay it. This threatens the stability of greek society. As our (larger) debt is not secured in this way it doesn't pose this threat (although it does pose others) only the govt. portion of our debt poses this threat.<BR>

<BR><BR>This makes no sense. Can you explain. Do you mean our public debts are secured by borrowing overseas - if so how is this good and why would the lenders want to lend to Britain at low rates. Again look at the Charts in the McKinsey report and mull on the level of household, fianance, business and government debts. The UK is monsterously overleveraged. <BR><BR> Edited March 3, 2010 by bpw

[Charlie The Tramp Returns]

sanity

the idiot likes of Nigel Farage don't reflect well on UK

I thought the Looney Left had disappeared after Thatcher saw them off.

[bpw]

Sorry will need to tidy up using Firefox.... using IE6 !

[Grimbert]

who eat custard creams ;-)

Please don't diss custard creams

[Toilet-Currency]

By 'kicking out' I meant Europe must consider whether Britain should loose all trading priviledges with the Eurozone.

On this point I must protest.

If the UK lost its free trade "privileges", which company would be worse off?

- BMW, VW, Mercedes etc, or

- Toni and Guy

[D.C.]

well it was tony and his club of rome pals that foisted a communist government on us in the first place.

I suppose it's law of unintended consequences.

we really can't be that arsed fighting their crusades either....so they'll probably have to start looking after themselves in future.

having US and UK doing the donkey-work may not be forthcoming .

NATO works when everybody pulls their weight...the anglo-americans have done a disporportionate amount of heavy lifting,and carry also a disproportionate amount of debt for the privilege.

we will not for ever have the capacity of world policeman....how will the EU react to china taking over the role?

Tut.

You are falling for the american whinging about Europe spending nothing on defense and getting all the benefits of US spending.

This is utter crap.

The EU nations are second behind the US in military spending, we spend more on defence than Brazil, Russia, India, China and Japan combined.

This spending puts us third in the world in terms of Nukes and either first or second in the world in terms of everything else.

We can also build all of our weapons, including nukes, subs, carriers, fighters, helicopters, tanks etc etc and we build very good stuff.

The EU doesn't play 'the world's policeman' because it rejects that sort of hard power having watched the US screwing up all over the place (Vietnam & Iraq spring to mind) in favour of soft diplomacy. Given the propensity for nationalistic fervour, colonialism and wanton slaughter we have had for the last couple of thousand years, I welcome that caution to solve all problems with overwhelming military force.

[huw]

Sterling is pegged to the Euro and most of our trade is with Europe.

No it's not.

By 'kicking out' I meant Europe must consider whether Britain should loose all trading priviledges with the Eurozone.

Which breached treaty article(s) to which we're signatories do you expect them to consider, and where are your recommended sanctions specified?

Another measure would be to stop UK collaboration in say EADS or other large EU created enterprises.

Again, what treaty articles would justify this?

Tell you what, you study the Maastricht/Lisbon treaties so you can quote chapter and verse in order to justify your argument, then I'll have a look at this report