Is Government Good?

[bill still]

Well you only have to go as far as the first sentence.

What about government interference in restraining evil -- you know, preventing crime running rampant on the streets?

This is nonsense. What a hopeless view of society. Are you a father? Probably not.

IIRC Mises favoured a free market in money; not a gold standard.

take another look at the Mises quote.

which part of it are you saying is factually incorrect?

[bill still]

You mean soundly manipulatable money.

I'm not a goldbug but at least Von Mises lives in the world of sound money. That's gotta be btter than what we have right now.

Goldbugs are in denial as far as the UK and USA goes.........cos the gold is all gone. There is none!

So better to seek an alternative system

(and you can't eat it)

[InternationalRockSuperstar]

which part of it are you saying is factually incorrect?

Well you only have to go as far as the first sentence.

well, let's look at the first sentence then:

It is important to remember that government interference always means either violent action or the threat of such action.

Bill, how does the gov't obtain the funding to run itself?

[bill still]

Because once the money power is returned to the people to whom it properly belongs, the plutocrats will not only no longer have the benefit of the interest payments from government borrowing, but they will have significantly less influence on legislative matters.

How can this be difficult to see?

In what way is his conclusion hopeless that bureaucratic management is unavoidable where entrepreneurial incentives cannot do it better/cheaper? No more and no less government intervention is necessary to maximise the well-being of the avg Joe. It's idealistic enough, but also quite obvious and "workable". Not so sure how a fiat may constructively keep the government in check with respect to the true goal of what all this hassle is about.

[Meerkat]

What about government interference in restraining evil -- you know, preventing crime running rampant on the streets?

If restraining of the said evil is productive in practice and leads to better conditions, am sure von Mises would be in for it. It is probably no coincidence that the more capital is formed and invested (and conditions created for this to happen), the less of rampant crime you have on the streets.

[Stars]

Because once the money power is returned to the people to whom it properly belongs,

Who properly owns THE money power and why?

[bill still]

Through taxation. Taxation being the political agreement between the legislature to collect monies to run the state. But you take this in the most extreme light possible as though then govt does nothing good with these monies. I dare say you wouldn't like it so well if you had to grow every bit of your food because the govt didn't maintain the highway system. You'd find that quite inconvenient.

well, let's look at the first sentence then:

Bill, how does the gov't obtain the funding to run itself?

[Stars]

Through taxation. Taxation being the political agreement between the legislature to collect monies to run the state. But you take this in the most extreme light possible as though then govt does nothing good with these monies. I dare say you wouldn't like it so well if you had to grow every bit of your food because the govt didn't maintain the highway system. You'd find that quite inconvenient.

Well let's leave aside what they do with the money; one thing we know for sure is that they use violence and coercion to get it.

[InternationalRockSuperstar]

take another look at the Mises quote.

which part of it are you saying is factually incorrect?

Well you only have to go as far as the first sentence.

well, let's look at the first sentence then:

Bill, how does the gov't obtain the funding to run itself?

Through taxation.

right,

and why do people pay tax?

[bill still]

Allow me to quote Abraham Lincoln on this point:

“The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. . .

“The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Government’s greatest creative opportunity. . .

“By the adoption of these principles the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest.

“The financing of all public enterprises will become matters of practical administration. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity.â€

Thereafter, Prof. Davis Rich Dewey, an MIT professor of math and brother of the Dewey decimal system Dewey put it this way:

“The underlying idea in the greenback philosophy… is that the issue of currency is a function of the government, a sovereign right which ought not to be delegated to corporations. Such a view appealed to the spirit of nationalism and democracy, and naturally and quickly led to the full acceptance of the principle of “fiat money.â€

Conversely, in the UK, the plutocracy was livid about Lincoln's Greenbacks. In an editorial in the London Times:

“If this mischievous financial policy, which has its origin in North America, shall become [permanent], then the Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous without precedent in the history of the world. The brains, and wealth of all countries will go to North America.â€

Source: United States Congress Committee on Banking and Currency, Intermediate Credit Corporation: Hearings … Seventy-fourth Congress, (Washington, D.C., Government Printing Office, 1935), p. 204.

Who properly owns THE money power and why?

[bill still]

Yes, taxation is an essential function of the state and is directly opposed to anarchy. So, you can pretty much take your choice; taxation or a return to serfdom and ox carts.

right,

and why do people pay tax?

[InternationalRockSuperstar]

Bill, you haven't answered the question.

take another look at the Mises quote.

which part of it are you saying is factually incorrect?

Well you only have to go as far as the first sentence.

well, let's look at the first sentence then:

Bill, how does the gov't obtain the funding to run itself?

Through taxation.

right,

and why do people pay tax?

[bill still]

Friend, your obsession with govt collecting taxes by coercion is understandable, but myopic.

It's a necessity in order to have roads and maintain order (decrease anarchy).

You must have had a very bad experience with govt tax collectors.

Bill, you haven't answered the question.

right,

and why do people pay tax?

[InternationalRockSuperstar]

Friend, your obsession with govt collecting taxes by coercion is understandable, but myopic.

if you accept gov't is funded by taxation, and that taxes are collected by coercion, then why did you say that this sentence of Mises' was incorrect?

It is important to remember that government interference always means either violent action or the threat of such action.

[Lone_Twin]

This thread is such a dissapointment.

I had high hopes Bill but you seem unprepared to face either facts or follow logic to its conclusion.

We'd all like to get off the logic bus at the happy stop in denial-ville but truth demands more of us than that.

[Stars]

“The underlying idea in the greenback philosophy… is that the issue of currency is a function of the government, a sovereign right which ought not to be delegated to corporations....."

Isn't the issuing of money really a matter for individual people?

[InternationalRockSuperstar]

This thread is such a dissapointment.

I had high hopes Bill but you seem unprepared to face either facts or follow logic to its conclusion.

+1

[Meerkat]

Because once the money power is returned to the people to whom it properly belongs, the plutocrats will not only no longer have the benefit of the interest payments from government borrowing, but they will have significantly less influence on legislative matters.

How can this be difficult to see?

If gold standart is not abused/sabotaged, you will be almost there: the government would have very limited ability to issue debt. I would not trust "a democratic" fiat to achieve anything close to that. Definitely not today or in the very near future. it's just too filthy. To seriously consider anything beyond that, the following must happen in the first place, as put by Cicero 55BC:

The budget should be balanced, the Treasury should be refilled, public debt should be reduced, the arrogance of officialdom should be tempered and controlled, and the assistance to foreign lands should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt. People must again learn to work, instead of living on public assistance.

Cold turkey is needed; a stick to start with. People (the average Joe) must understand how true wealth is created before more idealistic goals are set.

[Stars]

Cold turkey is needed; a stick to start with. People (the average Joe) must understand how true wealth is created before more idealistic goals are set.

No need for sticks, just allow people to be rewarded naturally for being productive, rather than arranging the tax system so all the productive surpluses to slide into real estate to be collected by speculators.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Stars

[SMAC67]

Question: "Is government good?", Answer: "No!"

[Injin]

Question: "Is government good?", Answer: "No!"

Definitely.

The only argument anyone can realistically put forward for a government is that it's an understandable or excusable use of force. You can't just flat out deny how it operates and expect to have any credibility.

[Guest UK Debt Slave]

If gold standart is not abused/sabotaged, you will be almost there: the government would have very limited ability to issue debt. I would not trust "a democratic" fiat to achieve anything close to that. Definitely not today or in the very near future. it's just too filthy. To seriously consider anything beyond that, the following must happen in the first place, as put by Cicero 55BC:

Cold turkey is needed; a stick to start with. People (the average Joe) must understand how true wealth is created before more idealistic goals are set.

Forget the gold standard

There will NEVER be a gold standard again in the UK .....OR the USA

For one very simple reason

There's no gold

The bankers stole it all.

[Guest BoomBoomCrash]

Explain to me how without a central authority large scale infrastructure gets built? Or how property rights would be enforced? How would crime be dealt with?

[Injin]

Explain to me how without a central authority large scale infrastructure gets built?

Asda seem to manage just fine.

Or how property rights would be enforced?

Removal of service and other sanctions.

How would crime be dealt with?

Everyone would be armed.

[Goat]

Question: "Is government good?", Answer: "No!"

The answer is IMO a bit more complex than that and comes down to the law of diminishing returns: some government is good and some is not.

Is the maintenance of an army worthwhile to prevent foreign invasion - yes.

Is the maintenance of a police force criminal justice system worthile - yes, although it would be nice if they did something other than beating up people and then lying about it.

Is the NHS good? Debatable.

Is the state schooling system good - even more debatable.

Armies of civil servants in makework jobs getting - bad.