Are You Pro Or Anti Cannabis?

[Gone baby gone]

I think it is clear that the billions of pounds spend in support services such as courts, police, NHS, Social Workers, Child Protection, show that legalising drugs would be a grave mistake.

How much of that money is spent on the fruitless "war on drugs"? It's a sign of madness to keep doing the same thing and expect a different outcome. Since the 1950s the UK has been trying to 'crack down' on drugs like cannabis, yet it's more popular than ever!

Liberal Societies dont last long, and history has shown that time and time again.

Illiberal societies don't last very long either. You need a balance.

Drugs are addictive, they cause mental illness, they destory society, and they destroy not only the lives of the people who take them, but the lives of their family and children also.

You could say EXACTLY the same about alcohol.

[annuity]

My own emotive view is that it should be illegal I hate the stuff, but when I look at the key facts it clearly should be legal, I prefer a glass of wine personally.

Cannabis is a political tool, nothing more nothing less. It shocked me to find this out.

Cannabis use went down over the period it was classified to class C. Yes it went down.

That point is fundamental. The law placed into action by Blunkett achieved a fall in cannabis use. This is what everyone wants.

The second key point is the Governments expert panel the ACMD who are specialists with no emotional bias advised against the reclassification.

Yet our Government thought that they know better than there own figures and experts. Contradicting these figures physically harms people. Surely they must understand this.

Drug use is going down Brown said to Smith, lets make it a class B again. We have watched them destroy our economy, watch them destroy our youth. One must also remember Jacki Smith was a cannabis user. If she had been caught and had received a criminal record she could not be home secretary, but she and her fellow Government see it fit to employ an ex drug user, this is odd and contradictory, she should resign, she and brown disgust me.

Lastly cannabis dealers still had "class B" sentences applied to them when it was "class C". This is fundamental, as the reclasification only affects users not dealers sentences. Dealers still have it easy.

The average user on the street can either get a warning and no record, this flaw means you could get multiple warnings in differing areas and be free as a bird, at the said police persons discretion.

The second time one is caught this new law introduces an £80 pound fine. This reveals the stealth tax that has been introduced and the only key difference in it's reclassification.

I hate cannabis, only because I don't like the smell! But when you sensibly review the evidence and the fact that a country like the Netherlands has less young drug users than the UK even though they have a relaxed drug policy proves the point. The british government lies to us not just about the economy but also their own motivations behind drug policy reform, for one it is not about harm reduction. It all makes me very sad.

[laurejon]

produce the 1st dead body due to cannabis overdose and I may take you seriously

this debate is about cannabis yet every anti happily quotes heroin/crack stats to justify their prejidices

sticking ones head in the sand and waving your truncheon has caused more damage

and how deadly is alcohol ? how much violence does it bring ? if you demand a substance free world

please remember to include ALL drugs . I have been in more coffeeshops in Holland than I care to remember and

NEVER have I witnessed aggression or anyone out of control ,I wish I could say the same for pubs.

The biggest critics of cannabis are usually serial drunks and those who have never tried it but are happy to believe the rubbish spouted by the control freaks of govt .

Maybe you should ask the medical proffesion or the court services, they deal with the drugs problems on a daily basis.

[laurejon]

Perfectly Harmless...........................?

A WEALTHY music producer has spoken about the dangers of cannabis after being viciously assaulted in her home by a family friend who had been made psychotic by the drug.

Lisa Voice, one of Britain’s richest women, has had to undergo 11 operations to reconstruct her face after the unprovoked attack last June.

Voice’s lawyers hope that her decision to go public about her trauma will encourage the government, police and courts to rethink their approach to cannabis misuse. They say that her experience calls into question the government’s decision to lower the classification of cannabis, despite medical warnings that it can lead to psychosis among some users.

She was asleep when the 20-year-old family friend, who was in her home in north London, attacked her in her bedroom. He punched her repeatedly, tried to strangle her and jumped on her head.

He subsequently pleaded guilty to grievous bodily harm. Medical experts concluded that he was mentally unstable at the time of the assault due to “cannabis psychosis”. He will be sentenced at Middlesex crown court tomorrow.

Voice’s injuries were so severe that on the night of the attack doctors warned her family that she was unlikely to live. She lost some of her vision when her eye sockets were smashed and has had her nose rebuilt with ear cartilage.

Over the past eight months Voice, a 52-year-old mother of two, has also had titanium plates inserted into her face to hold her cheeks together and underwent a tracheotomy to allow her to breathe.

A music producer who has worked with pop stars from Sir Tom Jones to Lemar, Voice has also built up a property investment company. At the time of the attack Hollywood film makers were working on a movie about her life, including her 12-year relationship with Billy Fury, the rock star, who died in 1983.

Speaking from her home yesterday, Voice, who is worth £29m according to the Sunday Times Rich List, said: “He (her attacker) was a kind, sweet boy I had known for more than a year and welcomed into the family. But a few days before the attack I noticed he was acting strangely. I suspected he was smoking cannabis.

“Then I woke up to find myself being attacked. He broke my jaw, totally destroyed my nose, smashed my skull and my whole face now needs wires and metal plates to function. I am a bionic woman as a result of this assault.”

Voice’s life was shattered on the morning of June 7, 2005, with a sharp blow to her head while she was still asleep. Punch after punch rained down on her and she was dragged out of bed. Her attacker then began to jump on her head. She thought her life was over.

“I was yanked out of bed. He was punching me continually. It was just petrifying,” Voice said yesterday. “I could feel my jaw swinging everywhere, my cheeks were hanging off, he smashed my nose to pieces. But then he started jumping on my head. He was strangling me. My eye sockets were smashed and I was lying there in a pool of blood.”

Drifting in and out of consciousness, Voice was aware of her two teenage children in the room desperately struggling to stop the attacker. “My daughter was shouting, ‘He’s killed my mum, he’s killed my mum’,” she said. “Her nails were torn off trying to stop him.”

[laurejon]

No smoke without fear - cannabis and psychosis

Is there really a link between cannabis and psychosis? Robin Murray is in no doubt.

Robin Murray is professor of psychiatry at the Institute of Psychiatry, and consultant psychiatrist at the Maudsley Hospital.

As a consultant psychiatrist working in the Maudsley Hospital, which serves the Brixton area, I have been surprised that in all the recent discussions about cannabis, there has been virtually no mention of the drug's relationship to psychosis.

Psychiatrists have known for 150 years that heavy consumption of cannabis can produce hallucinations. This was thought to be rare and transient until the 1980s when, as cannabis consumption rose across Europe and the USA, it became apparent that people with chronic psychotic illnesses were more likely to be daily consumers of cannabis. Here in Britain, for example, people with schizophrenia do not take more alcohol, heroin, or ecstasy than the rest of us - but they are twice as likely to smoke cannabis regularly.

Since people with schizophrenia have a miserable life, most psychiatrists initially thought that if the odd spliff brought them some pleasure, what was the harm? Then, in the mid-90s, a Dutch psychiatrist named Don Lintzen from the University Clinic in Amsterdam noted that people with schizophrenia who used a lot of cannabis had a much worse outcome than those who didn't. This was confirmed by other studies, including a four-year follow-up at the Maudsley Hospital. Those who continued to smoke cannabis were three times more likely to develop a chronic illness than those who didn't.

Why does cannabis exacerbate psychosis? In schizophrenia, the hallucinations result from an excess of a brain chemical called dopamine. All the drugs that cause psychosis - amphetamines, cocaine and cannabis - increase the release of dopamine in the brain. In this way, they are distinct from illicit drugs such as heroin or morphine, which do not make psychosis worse.

The distraught parents of a young man diagnosed with schizophrenia tell me that their son was a very bright child with no obvious psychological problems. Then, in his mid-teens, his school grades deteriorated and he seemed to have trouble thinking clearly. He complained that people were talking about him behind his back.

After years of increasingly bizarre behaviour, he dropped out of school, job and university, and was finally admitted to a psychiatric unit, overwhelmed by paranoid fears and persecution by voices. The parents tell me that, at some point during this downward spiral, they realised their son was dependent on cannabis. The National Schizophrenia Fellowship (Rethink) is full of parents who see cannabis as the cause of their son's or, less commonly, daughter's madness.

Psychiatrists began to wonder if cannabis could actually cause psychosis as well as make established psychosis worse. A famous study interviewed 50,000 conscripts into the Swedish Army about their drug consumption and followed them up. Those who were heavy consumers of cannabis at 18 were six times more likely to be diagnosed with schizophrenia over the next 15 years than those did not take it.

This year, Dutch epidemiologist Jim Van Os published the results of his study, in which 7,500 people were interviewed about their drug consumption and followed up for three years. Once again, regular consumers of cannabis were more likely to develop psychosis than those who didn't. Two other studies with similar findings are in progress.

It is perhaps surprising that it took the professionals so long to reach this conclusion. For example, it is widely accepted in Jamaica that too much ganja can cause paranoia. Several famous Rastafarians spent their last years incarcerated in Bellevue, the squalid mental hospital in Kingston, among them the legendary ska trombonist, Don Drummond.

Cannabis is now one of the biggest problems on in-patient psychiatric wards in England's major cities. It is common at Maudsley for those making progress to relapse suddenly. The explanation comes when a urine sample tests positive for cannabis. The same effect has been shown at Yale Medical School, where volunteers were given THC - the major active ingredient of cannabis - by injection. Psychotic symptoms could be produced in normal subjects, and people with schizophrenia had a brief exacerbation of their psychosis.

So will reclassifying cannabis cause more people to become psychotic? The incidence of schizophrenia in south London has doubled since the 1960s; the use of cannabis and cocaine could be a factor. The increase in the prevalence and the deteriorating outcomes of schizophrenia due to cannabis use is the main reason why psychiatric services in London are in such a mess.

Any public debate on cannabis needs to take account of the risks as well as the pleasure. Pro-marijuana campaigners claim, extrapolating from their Saturday-night joint, that cannabis is totally safe. Yet they would be unlikely to claim that a bottle of vodka a day is healthy on the basis of sharing a bottle of Chablis over dinner.

No drugs that alter brain chemistry are totally safe. Just as some who drink heavily become alcoholic, so a minority of those who smoke cannabis daily go psychotic. Society has to balance the enjoyment that the majority get from cannabis with the harm it causes to a vulnerable few

[leveller]

Drug Facts And Statistics

From The Drug Project.

Deaths in the United States in a typical year are as follows:

* Tobacco kills about 400,000

* Alcohol kills about 80,000

* Workplace accidents kill 60,000

* Automobiles kill 40,000

* Cocaine kills about 2,500

* Heroin kills about 2,000

* Aspirin kills about 2,000

* Marijuana kills 0

There has never been a recorded death due to marijuana at any time in US history.

All illegal drugs combined kill under 20,000 per year, or a small percent of the number killed by alcohol and tobacco.

Tobacco kills more people each year than all of the people killed by all of the illegal drugs in the last one hundred years.

[leveller]

DEATHS FROM DRUGS: STATISTICS UK 1990

Known drug-related deaths in the UK, 1990

Tobacco: .................110,000

Alcohol: ..................30,000

Volatile Substances: 112

Morphine: ................91

Methadone: ..............84

Heroin: ....................62

Barbiturate Type: ....7

Anti-depressants: ....4

Cocaine: .................4

Pethidine: ...............3

MDMA (ecstasy): ...3

Amphetamine Type: .2

Hallucinogens:........ 0

LSD:....................... 0

Psylocibin:............. 0

Cannabis: ...............0

[leveller]

UK drug death figures: deaths per annum

Alcohol[1] 4,235

Tobacco[1] 120,000

The Herb[1,2] 1

LSD[1] 0

Peanuts[3] 7

Viagra[3] 7

Ecstasy[1] 4

[1] Hansard figures for 1995.

[2] Death caused by inhaling vomit [Lord's Hansard report on medicinal cannabis]

[3] BBC news

[ianb78]

As a psychiatrist I can say with authority that there is evidence of a link between cannabis smoking and the development of schizophrenia.

Cannabis also causes a transient drug induced psychosis.

One of the major problems working in an urban area is the use of cannabis amongst our patients. This is a scourge and exacerbates their illness considerably causing much suffering.

I know it's not fashionable to say this but I welcome the reclassification.

Do we really need these substances to enjoy our lives?!

ps. Most of the folks at uni that smoked the stuff were incredibly one dimensional and boring and none progressed even to the 2nd yr of study!!!

[Guest anorthosite]

As a psychiatrist I can say with authority that there is evidence of a link between cannabis smoking and the development of schizophrenia.

Cannabis also causes a transient drug induced psychosis.

One of the major problems working in an urban area is the use of cannabis amongst our patients. This is a scourge and exacerbates their illness considerably causing much suffering.

I know it's not fashionable to say this but I welcome the reclassification.

Do we really need these substances to enjoy our lives?!

ps. Most of the folks at uni that smoked the stuff were incredibly one dimensional and boring and none progressed even to the 2nd yr of study!!!

Ten doctors and you chose that one to be your avatar?!?

I know what you've been smoking...

[leveller]

Alcohol and tobacco are drugs and are far worse than cannabis.

The stories you find are droplets compared to the sea of alcohol stories alone.

Reefer madness, huh? Watch the vid's I suggested. Dig a little deeper into the whole story instead of just spouting crap.

Cannabis, crimes and psychosis? What are your stats compared like for like with other drugs?

How common is psychosis?

Psychosis is more common that most people realise. It is estimated that one in every 200 people in the UK has experienced psychosis. Some people will only experience one psychotic episode, while others may experience a number of episodes throughout their life.

You mention doctors, nurses, victims, etc. from cannabis?! Compare with alcohol.

However, most people who use cannabis do not develop psychosis, which suggests that some individuals may be genetically vulnerable to its effects.

Ianb78, surely in your job you are also aware that mental health problems can be caused by alcohol and other drugs, too.

It is also notable that some research suggests that alcohol abuse is a stronger predictor of psychotic symptoms than regular cannabis use.

This here says a bit more on alcohol and cannabis significantly increasing the probability of developing psychosis and schizophrenia.

[leveller]

Do all you 'anti's' want to classify alcohol as class A ?

Laurejon, ianb78?

[leveller]

IMO alcohol should be classed higher than cannabis, if they are to be classed.

Alcohol, tobacco, and cannabis should not be available to under 21's, due to their growing bodies and minds.

[Frank Hovis]

Alcohol and tobacco are drugs and are far worse than cannabis.

Viz comic, Student Grant. Why not add in caffeine. Actually.

[leveller]

Viz comic, Student Grant. Why not add in caffeine. Actually.

True, I forgot about my morning pick-me-up drug of choice. But I don't overdose on it, carefully regulated two cups of tea, thus no caffeine induced psychosis yet.

[laurejon]

Drug-related crime costs England and Wales more than £13 billion a year and damages the health of hundreds of thousands of addicts, according to a report.

The UK has the highest levels of addiction and multi-drug consumption and the second-highest rate of drug-related deaths in Europe, the document claimed.

More than 320,000 problem drug users commit "very high numbers of offences" - mostly shoplifting, but also violent crime.

The report, commissioned for the launch yesterday of the charity-funded UK Drug Policy Commission (UKDPC), highlighted research that around a quarter of 26 to 30-year-olds have tried Class A drugs - including heroin and cocaine, and around 45 per cent of young people have used cannabis.

The value of the market for illicit drugs is estimated at more £5 billion a year, much of it profit for criminals.

The report concluded that the Government's hardline drug policies have led to increased jail sentences but have failed to reduce the flow of narcotics into Britain.

Programmes aimed at persuading young people to stay away from drugs have had "very little impact" apparently on the number of youngsters who experiment with illicit substances.

"Drugs have become an increasingly common feature of British life," the report said. "Most young people now have contact with drugs, and many of them have experience as drug users. The mixture of drugs that people take fluctuates over time.

"Cannabis is still the most commonly used illicit drug. The popularity of ecstasy seems to be waning. Amphetamines and LSD are now minority tastes, even among active drug users."

However, it added: "Occasional drug use is not the principal cause of Britain's drug problems. The bulk of drug-related harm occurs among the relatively small number of people that become dependent on Class A drugs, notably heroin and cocaine.

"The number of people who do have serious problems has increased hugely since the 1970s. Heroin is still the drug that is associated with most of this problematic use, although crack has become a significant element in some areas."

The report said there were more than 1,700 deaths in Britain in 2004 where the "underlying cause is poisoning, drug abuse, or drug dependence."

The authors, Prof Peter Reuter, of Maryland University in the US, and Alex Stevens, of the University of Kent, said that approaches such as needle exchanges and drug rehabilitation had had positive results - including keeping HIV infection rates among injecting users down.

But, they warned, not enough was known about why certain elements of drug policy work. Despite increased investment in treatment, the majority of Government spending still went towards enforcing drug laws.

As a result, drug seizures have gone up and tougher sentencing meant that the number of people jailed more than doubled between 1994 and 2005. Despite these efforts, street prices for heroin fell to £54 in 2005.

In the Commons, Prime Minister Tony Blair rejected Tory claims that the report showed that the Government's drug strategy had failed. "The UKDPC has not found that there has been no progress in relation to drug policy. On the contrary, they believe there has been progress but there remains much more to do."

[leveller]

However, it added: "Occasional drug use is not the principal cause of Britain's drug problems. The bulk of drug-related harm occurs among the relatively small number of people that become dependent on Class A drugs, notably heroin and cocaine.

"The number of people who do have serious problems has increased hugely since the 1970s. Heroin is still the drug that is associated with most of this problematic use, although crack has become a significant element in some areas."

Yep. And then compare to alcohol.

Also, have you even bothered reading / watching the info for pro cannabis?

[laurejon]

Yep. And then compare to alcohol.

Also, have you even bothered reading / watching the info for pro cannabis?

Yes I have, but I am afraid you are speaking to someone who made my mind up some time ago when two of my relatives used Cannabis at the early age of 15, then moved onto harder drugs, and then found themselves really chilling out six foot under in a Graveyard in South London, aged 17 and 19.

So I suppose it would be true to say that it would be hard to convert me

[leveller]

Yes I have, but I am afraid you are speaking to someone who made my mind up some time ago when two of my relatives used Cannabis at the early age of 15, then moved onto harder drugs, and then found themselves really chilling out six foot under in a Graveyard in South London, aged 17 and 19.

So I suppose it would be true to say that it would be hard to convert me

The arguement that cannabis is a gateway drug has been rubbished.

You say these youngsters died young, was it direct hard drug overdose or something connected?

Cannabis and alcohol are not good for growing young adults, physically or mentally.

I know / knew people who have been very negatively affected from alcohol. I know zero people affected from cannabis.

[laurejon]

The arguement that cannabis is a gateway drug has been rubbished.

You say these youngsters died young, was it direct hard drug overdose or something connected?

Cannabis and alcohol are not good for growing young adults, physically or mentally.

I know / knew people who have been very negatively affected from alcohol. I know zero people affected from cannabis.

I dont really understand why you would say Cannabis as a gateway drug is rubbished.

I am sure the statistics show that many many young people today use Cannabis first, then move onto harder stuff later.

I only ever met one guy who died of Alchohol abuse, and for sure it was a pitiful sight watching his demise. He did however work right up until the day he died, being a Friday, Payday, p1ssed up his wages in the pub went home and died in his chair choking on his own vomit. I am sure that he was on the way out anyway, and would most likely have only lasted another month or so before his internal organs finally gave up being pickled.

I appreciate Alchohol is deadly, however I dont think its as addictive as Ciggarettes or Drugs.

[John51]

As a psychiatrist I can say with authority that there is evidence of a link between cannabis smoking and the development of schizophrenia.

Cannabis also causes a transient drug induced psychosis.

One of the major problems working in an urban area is the use of cannabis amongst our patients. This is a scourge and exacerbates their illness considerably causing much suffering.

I know it's not fashionable to say this but I welcome the reclassification.

Do we really need these substances to enjoy our lives?!

ps. Most of the folks at uni that smoked the stuff were incredibly one dimensional and boring and none progressed even to the 2nd yr of study!!!

Can you back that claim up with some historical data?

In 1969, scoring cannabis was a right pain. There was about 1 pot dealer per housing estate, usually dry and we'd often spend 7 times more on taxis than the deal would have cost if we were lucky enough to get some. I smoked cannabis maybe 6 times a year, wasn't for lack of trying.

Am I correct in thinking that the schizophrenia rate was about 1% of the population then? Is that the same as it is now?

Nowadays, the only adults not using cannabis either 1) don't want to or 2) can't afford it at the this point in time. There are at least 10 dealers within walking distance of me and droughts are a rarity thanks to our Vietnamese friends. (Who make money from cannabis that could be used to increase NHS spending on mental health.)

So if your claim is correct, how come the increase in reported cases of schizophrenia does not correlate to the increase in the use of cannabis.

It couldn't be that people that in the NHS are ticking boxes re. cannabis use of patients could it? Let's ask patients if they've ever had a cup of coffeee. How much physcosis would that 'prove'?

Even if you are correct, it's my body to do good or ill to as I like.

btw, a friend of mine say that they've never met a schizophrenic that didn't use tobacco, in your experience, what % of them do smoke tobacco?

[fluffy666]

As a psychiatrist I can say with authority that there is evidence of a link between cannabis smoking and the development of schizophrenia.

Cannabis also causes a transient drug induced psychosis.

One of the major problems working in an urban area is the use of cannabis amongst our patients. This is a scourge and exacerbates their illness considerably causing much suffering.

I know it's not fashionable to say this but I welcome the reclassification.

Do we really need these substances to enjoy our lives?!

ps. Most of the folks at uni that smoked the stuff were incredibly one dimensional and boring and none progressed even to the 2nd yr of study!!!

Is there any evidence that reclassification will actually reduce usage? (The answer is no, so the argument about harm dosen't really get anywhere).

Oh, and humans have been getting intoxicated on whatever they could find for as long as we have records.. so the answer about enjoyment appears to be yes.

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

I am no fan of the reclassification of cannabis to class B. I don't like that cannabis is illegal.

If you have a little time free, and want a bit more info, try to watch 'Emperor of hemp', or read 'The emperor wears no clothes'.

I for total legalisation of al drugs, hard and soft. For the harder ones they would be available to registered addicts from NHS centres.

Banning drugs just gives a ready market for criminals and most muggings and burglaries are my addicts looking for their next fix.

That said, although I'd be quite interested one day in giving some sort of shamanic hallucinogen like ayahuasca a try one day, most people who take drugs regularly are tossers. I've never met a single hemp fairy that wasn't a low-achieving waster or a affluent coke snorter that wasn't a complete twit.

[leveller]

I dont really understand why you would say Cannabis as a gateway drug is rubbished.

I am sure the statistics show that many many young people today use Cannabis first, then move onto harder stuff later.

I only ever met one guy who died of Alchohol abuse, and for sure it was a pitiful sight watching his demise. He did however work right up until the day he died, being a Friday, Payday, p1ssed up his wages in the pub went home and died in his chair choking on his own vomit. I am sure that he was on the way out anyway, and would most likely have only lasted another month or so before his internal organs finally gave up being pickled.

I appreciate Alchohol is deadly, however I dont think its as addictive as Ciggarettes or Drugs.

From here and other studies,

"Recently a government report has concluded that cannabis does not lead to the use of other drugs."

"The choice to take drugs like cocaine is a consequence of a person's predisposition to seeking and using drugs, not because they have taken any."

I have known quite a few people who's lives were cut short from alcohol abuse, and if you were to read up on it, there are 1000's every year.

I also know quite a few people who's lives are being negatively affected from alcohol in one way or another, mine included. My personal demons are in alcohol and tobacco, I rarely smoke cannabis as it gives me "*******" as it doesn't agree with alcohol, but I really don't agree that some people I know are classed as criminals for smoking a plant.

These people I refer too are my dad who is 63 and has progressive MS, 3 friends who each earn over £60k a year in respected jobs, and a few others, all with no background in criminal activity whatsoever.

Do you really think alcohol isn't addictive? From here

"Alcohol Dependency is by far the most common addiction and is responsible for the deaths of many thousands of people every year. Government figures suggest that up to 9.7% of the UK population may be classified as dependent on alcohol"

[6538]

Drugs are addictive, they cause mental illness, they destory society, and they destroy not only the lives of the people who take them, but the lives of their family and children also.

Cannabis should be reclassified as a Class A substance, so there will be no grey areas on just how deadly it can be.

Cannabis is not physically addictive, it cannot produce a physical dependence like heroin or alcohol - ask a doctor. Yes, it can be habbit forming but so what, anything can be. I probably spend far too much of my time writing sh1te on here so should I be banned from owning a computer?

Lots of drugs are not particularly harmful and to say that they destroy society is daft. Look at Ecstacy, it's probably one of the safest drugs out there. Millions of E's are taken every year and how many people get ill from them? Very few. It's safer than Penicillin. How many people have died as a direct result of the pharmacological properties of cannabis?