When Will Northern Ireland Property Prices Stop Falling?

[Ride_on]

Next thing we will see will be incentives to encourage first time buyers back onto the market by providing interest free loans etc. I follow the property market very closely and I am undecided as to wether we have reached the bottom or wether it is this time next year I am fully aware of the levels houses are being sold at, and to be honest I believe it is exceptional value, but only time will tell. Two months ago I was sure it would take until 2010 however the speed of this crash i belive is quicker than those of history.

Although I have little to no confidence in the government i do believe they are trying to put a ceiling under house prices. I have learnt over time that once the government decide to do something belive it or not it does happen, i have learnt this the hard way.

I am expecting huge things from the G20 in April a revaluation of the global currencies should be on the cards which will bring down levels of debt for everyone from the IMF to the Government to the Households............

Anyone else share my views ? ?

I am curious as to how you think property is exceptional value.

It is alot lower than it was, but I think it is still vastly over-valued. I bought my property as a FTB in 1990ish, since then similar FTB's now might earn double what I was on, but property has increased 9 times, mainly due to increased credit. I predict the correct 'value' is about 3/4x Domestic capital value, or about 75K for my flat that was valued at £225K during the peak. Typical asking price is 1.4xDCV at the moment.

Granted that higher prices stimulates building and developing and employs people, but my company makes STBs, if we sold those for 2x the price we do now, we could afford to employ more people too.

[yadayada]

people who mewed and took on crazy mortgages are being rewarded. His attitude is to hell with FTB's and people who have been priced out and have no choice but to rent.

You're right. This really sickens me - having your stupidity bailed out at sensible people's expense. (A bit like the banks)Perhaps we should just go drinking rather than trying to "better ourselves".

[Malthus]

Looking into more detail i believe now that Brown is trying to delay the inevitable, it is trying to stall the collapse until he leaves office and does not care about the consequences.

Brown has screwed over decent people big time- people who mewed and took on crazy mortgages are being rewarded. His attitude is to hell with FTB's and people who have been priced out and have no choice but to rent.

Don't panic , only applies to hard working families .

Watch out BTL'ers , if the banks can't repossess "ordinary" people who borrowed money they can't repay guess who they will come after ? .

[yadayada]

As you're interested in historical data, check out the long term trend on the Nationwide average house price graph on this very site for proof of long term property gain. The long term trend only goes in one direction my friend.

Yes. That's because there's been a long term trend of growth in earnings. Price rises cannot outstrip earnings growth for long without a reversion at some point (like now). Do you believe earnings will continue to increase long term in the same fashion as heretofore? (good word) I don't. The whole game is based on cheap and easily available energy over the last 100 years or so. This could well be coming to an end.

[debt_ridden_ftb]

You're right. This really sickens me - having your stupidity bailed out at sensible people's expense. (A bit like the banks)Perhaps we should just go drinking rather than trying to "better ourselves".

I seem to think i choice the wrong route in life, go to Uni work for a degree try to get a good decent paid job. Result - get screwed over with student fee's etc.. graduate job market a joke, priced out of the housing market etc...

On the flip side - I know people who did not go to Uni instead they bought in the past 3 years, fancy cars, holidays, did not save for deposits (100% mortgages) and interest only at that, and work in shit jobs with shit money. How can they afford it? They all seem too live the life of riley. Now the Government will bail them out!

[HERMY]

You're right. This really sickens me - having your stupidity bailed out at sensible people's expense. (A bit like the banks)Perhaps we should just go drinking rather than trying to "better ourselves".

I know the situation is unfair trust me i am suffering like everyone else as a result however when has anyone ever turned around and said. Isnt that house exceptional value .........

I have never heard it not once .............. trouble is some people wouldnt know good value until it passes them yet again.

Its quite funny to say that cos no-one esepecially older people think something is good value i.e. a house ......... as back in their day the same house would have cost only £10,000 they somehow expect it to return to that but as we all know you couldnt even build a small garage for that today with no insulation etc

Would u know good value if it was presented in front of u?

In your mind what is good value for

A decent council house

A decent semi- detached

A detached house

A decent 4 bed house in the country? ?

Please post your results below? All of the above are in an average provincial town in Northern Ireland

[Malthus]

We are all agreed the global economy is a mess with too much debt from households to governments to global institutions.

How do u solve this?

a) Flood the economy with fresh money

Money used to be linked to Gold now money is only paper........... when did this change 1930's ? Coincidence. I dont think so

Now we are back in a similar situation to then ans we need a solution............. so how does that happen.......

How does the government change this again...... they cant do it by each economy acting seperately they can only do it globally hence the G20.... coming together to discuss

How is the Uk and US governments suddenly ging to get all the money to pay for the bailouts if less people are working and less taxes paid etc etc

This is why I belive we will see something radical... in April........... only tme will tell....... but if it does remember where u heard it first

As you mention the 30's , check out what happened in Germany when the government tried to

a) Flood the economy with fresh money

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_in_...Weimar_Republic

the final outcome was WW2 , not a good plan imho

[Sogy]

They all seem too live the life of riley. Now the Government will bail them out!

Exactly - this is what the government is for! And that's good, because there are more people like them and fewer like you. And democracy is about majorities.

[yadayada]

I know the situation is unfair trust me i am suffering like everyone else as a result however when has anyone ever turned around and said. Isnt that house exceptional value .........

I'm actually not suffering. I'm doing better than I have in years (sorry), and I'm saving my money to buy an ideal home for cash.

Driving round my home area with my father, he's always pointing out fields and farms that went for tiny sums thirty and forty years ago:

"So why did you not buy it?"

"Couldn't afford it."

[YoungFTB]

Low interest rates will enable people to stay in their homes - they may not prosper, but they will not be turfed out unto the street. The number of forced sales will be low (comparitively) which will act as a stabiliser to the market.

Well it also looks like the government is going to back the Interest Payment Deferral Scheme

This post is from another thread but is very interesting imo

Very crucial issue - law of unintended consequences.

Clearly the Govt have not thought this through.

Anyone who loses their job and who has an unsecured loan or credit card will still be chased for repayment of the unsecured loan. What this proposal will do is put unsecured lenders AHEAD of the secured mortgage lender in seeking repayment of their unsecured loans BEFORE the mortgage gets repaid.

What will happen is unsecured lenders rushing to the courts seeking court orders to get their loan repaid before the 2 year deadlne on the mortgage holiday is exhausted.

What is even more likely is that where a bank has loaned money to someone to buy a house and also has a credit card and a car loan and also an overdraft out to the person who lost their job the bank will demand instant repayment of all unsecured debt in full at the same time as giving them a 'repayment holiday' on their morgage. Indeed, anyone who loses their job may in effect be put into instant bankruptcy position by a bank who will force repayment of all unsecured debt the instant that they see their salary cheque has not arrived in the bank.

In my view, banks will now be carefully monitoring the arrival of salary cheques and direct payments to bank accounts from now on and the instant they do not arrive a flag will be triggered in the bank system which send out an automated demand for repaymant of all unsecured loans and indeed may even put a stop on withdrawal of any and all positive balances in deposit and current accounts as security against repayment.

I doubt any court would prevent banks taking these steps.

Excellent post imo because I don't believe that low interest rates and an Interest Payment Deferral Scheme will be enough to save a lot of the unemployed from repossession. The personal debt is out of control!

Personal debt soars in the UK - 3 December 2008

Credit card and loan debt is now thought to be around £1,400 bn - that's around £23,000 for every adult and child in the UK.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/the_p_wo...000/7762165.stm

U.K. Banks Hit by Consumer Defaults - 3 December 2008

U.K. banks grappling with frozen credit markets and mortgage defaults are facing a new threat to their bottom lines: consumers unable to pay off credit-card bills and personal loans.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1228256790...=googlenews_wsj

[HERMY]

I seem to think i choice the wrong route in life, go to Uni work for a degree try to get a good decent paid job. Result - get screwed over with student fee's etc.. graduate job market a joke, priced out of the housing market etc...

On the flip side - I know people who did not go to Uni instead they bought in the past 3 years, fancy cars, holidays, did not save for deposits (100% mortgages) and interest only at that, and work in shit jobs with shit money. How can they afford it? They all seem too live the life of riley. Now the Government will bail them out!

All i would say is that you will look at the value of a house today and in 15 - 20 years time it will probably start to look cheap. This is a gaurauntee and I dont gaurauntee anything except over time house prices will ineviatbly rise and some day when you have kids you will remember this whole saga playng out in front of us and the prices on offer and you will probably think that people buying the average house at 450k or the equivalent is madness and who knows maybe it will be.

Time always distorts money... My dad was telling me his first car loan for a new car was £400 price of a car in 1970's or there abouts now what £12,000 perhaps ????

Thats a difference of 30 times

[HERMY]

I'm actually not suffering. I'm doing better than I have in years (sorry), and I'm saving my money to buy an ideal home for cash.

Driving round my home area with my father, he's always pointing out fields and farms that went for tiny sums thirty and forty years ago:

"So why did you not buy it?"

"Couldn't afford it."

Very difficult to save enough cash to buy a house......... at some point u will borrow and why not?

I would imagng your father wishes he had of bought those farms if he could afford them he would probably be a billionaire today

[yadayada]

Time always distorts money... My dad was telling me his first car loan for a new car was £400 price of a car in 1970's or there abouts now what £12,000 perhaps ????

Thats a difference of 30 times

Well, yes, but it's hard to compare today's cars with those of 30 years ago. Driven a Morris Minor recently? The Fiesta of 2008 is better equipped than the Rolls-Royce of the 1970s. Probably more reliable too.

[HERMY]

Well, yes, but it's hard to compare today's cars with those of 30 years ago. Driven a Morris Minor recently? The Fiesta of 2008 is better equipped than the Rolls-Royce of the 1970s. Probably more reliable too.

Its all relative............ point made

[shipbuilder]

The economic conditions we now encounter have NEVER been experienced before, therefore historical references cannot be given, nor can they be inferred with certainty. Some of the economic conditions are the same as previous recessions, but not all. If you can show me a case with record low interest rates and yet record low mortgage approvals, then I will take another look.

I do think however, we both agree that the falls will continue for most of next year.

As I've stated previously the number of reposessions will be significantly less than previous recessions, due to the current government action and the low interest rate environment which we will have for at least the next two years. This week there is every change the BOE rate will drop to 2%, with an associated drop in the LIBOR rates.These rates are not linked, but will move in roughly the same direction.

Low interest rates will enable people to stay in their homes - they may not prosper, but they will not be turfed out unto the street. The number of forced sales will be low (comparitively) which will act as a stabiliser to the market.

We have also had massive price falls over a small period of time, although there is more to come. But this rate of fall is unsustainable over, say, a four year period. This leads me to believe that the falls will be fast and furious. My view is 45% fall, your view is 60%. It will probably be between these two sets of figures, but the time frame for the complete fall will be approx 2 years (Q3 2007) to end Q3 2009, with some slight gains Q4 2009.

The credit crunch is difficult to interprite. Caused obviously by financial greed, but where does it stop? How many more bail outs are there going to be and over what time period? I suspect the majority of (bank) bad news to have filtered through by end Q1 2009, maybe Q2 2009. Bearing this in mind and the current/future government action (guaranteeing housing loans, etc.) then it is entirely likely that mortgage lending will have risen by Q2/Q3 2009. After all we are at record lows, so it would be realitively easy to see a rise in lending.

Unemployment is key to this whole discussion, but there are too many known/unknown variables for me to discuss, however I am in broad agreement that unemployment will rise by a substantial amount.

So my view is that the correction will be brutal, but short. Many more records will be broken before the end of this process.

One of the most interesting aspects of the current housing crash, is the twin market that has/will develop. There will be a market for investors and a market for everyone else. The investor market (at 80k and less) is basically entirely independent of the average NI house price debate, as the top price an investor will pay (80K) is currently 60% less than the current average NI house price. Even today on propertynews.com there are 157 properties for sale at 80K and less, and a massive 400 at 90k or less. Investors will continue buying over the next year (as the purchases are cash flow positive and can be cherry picked at will), whereas the FTB (as an example) will not, as he sees the average house price dropping over time. In effect this will give us an unusual situation where both the argument for buying property (as investment) and not buying property (FTB's) will BOTH be technically correct. This process with both parties being in the right has caused much confusion with you bears, so I hope the above explains it OK.

Many sellers have adjusted there prices to the new NI reality, so its time (over the next year) to take advantage of this for personnel long term wealth creation. As you're interested in historical data, check out the long term trend on the Nationwide average house price graph on this very site for proof of long term property gain. The long term trend only goes in one direction my friend.

PS, Just so there is no misunderstandings at a later date, even if the average NI house price rises by as little as £1 in Q4 2009; this still technically constitutes a rise. This is a silly comment I know, but it will help avoid any confusion for you bears at a later date.

The economic conditions are irrelevant to the 'profile' of the crash. Prices to not fall in a linear fashion - the fast initial drop will flatten out and will continue for 3-4 years, as all crashes do. Have a look at studies that Morgan Kelly of UCD did on previous housing crashes.

You make the mistake of thinking that the government know what to do, or that it will have any effect. The tragedy of many crashes is that people always think that they will end sooner than they do.

You also make the mistake of separating NI from the world economy - there can be no recovery in lending or housing until there is a recovery in the economy.

This applies to investors and FTBs alike - the logic of buying now for investors only works with a quick recovery and rising rents - with increasing rental stock and a collapsing economy we will have neither.

[shipbuilder]

All i would say is that you will look at the value of a house today and in 15 - 20 years time it will probably start to look cheap. This is a gaurauntee and I dont gaurauntee anything except over time house prices will ineviatbly rise and some day when you have kids you will remember this whole saga playng out in front of us and the prices on offer and you will probably think that people buying the average house at 450k or the equivalent is madness and who knows maybe it will be.

Time always distorts money... My dad was telling me his first car loan for a new car was £400 price of a car in 1970's or there abouts now what £12,000 perhaps ????

Thats a difference of 30 times

Aren't you just describing inflation? In other words, the price of a house will increase by a huge amount in an inflationary environment, but the value will not. The value can probably be measured as a multiple of the average wage - will we see the same multiples again in NI? I would say never.

[shipbuilder]

£125 is more than affordable for a young couple with a deposit and an average house in my eyes is a semi detached, somewhere around this depending on area etc is exceptional value however it is important to remember 2 things

1) Very few will sell their house for this or below asthey know their houses true value in normal times is more than figure stated.

2) There are so many developments were people went in and paid more than this and very few if any will or can sell cos of negative equity.

But what do i know? i know this post will get slated however remeber that the same people who post here will post here on the recovery and will have missed the boat again?

How much would u pay for a semi d in a good provincial town???? Remember that figure and if u see one at that remember this is what u stated and buy it........... that is if u have a deposit saved up............

Interest rates are at all time lows and in terms of afordability 125 is very affordable for a young couple on average wages with a deposit....... if property goes too NI 2003 levels the economy will be that screwed that you may not have a job.

People should be aware of a bargain when they see it. With low interest rates etc the government will get it goin again and once it does the forced sellers will dry up.

How much would you pay for a semi in a provincial town???????? and be realistic ???

You seem to be trying to convince us here to buy now, or miss the boat. Values do not collapse then shoot up again instantly. The slump will last years. Even if inflation kicks in it needs to filter through to wages to make a difference to house prices, by which time interest rates will rocket. It is not a quick process.

[Belfast Boy]

The economic conditions we now encounter have NEVER been experienced before, therefore historical references cannot be given, nor can they be inferred with certainty. Some of the economic conditions are the same as previous recessions, but not all. If you can show me a case with record low interest rates and yet record low mortgage approvals, then I will take another look.

You are contradicting yourself there

You want a case where low interest rates have not prevented house prices falling relative to income - I give you Japan. (see my earlier post for recent articles.)

I do think however, we both agree that the falls will continue for most of next year.

Nooooo we do not agree. I believe that falls won't even slow until the end of 2010. Then then may rise in nominal terms if inflation is high. Though they will continue to fall in real terms (inflation adjusted for several more years) There have been more than 50 housing bubbles in the west since WWII. Analysis of these bubbles has shown that the bubble will consistently lose 70% of gains. Also, that the bottom of the market is usually reached between 3-5 years. So that means to me that house prices will stop falling between 2010 and 2012. I'll try and find the article for you to read.

As I've stated previously the number of reposessions will be significantly less than previous recessions, due to the current government action and the low interest rate environment which we will have for at least the next two years. This week there is every change the BOE rate will drop to 2%, with an associated drop in the LIBOR rates.These rates are not linked, but will move in roughly the same direction.

Low interest rates will enable people to stay in their homes - they may not prosper, but they will not be turfed out unto the street. The number of forced sales will be low (comparitively) which will act as a stabiliser to the market.

As pootle pointed out government action will only delay the inevitable. Prices will definately continue to fall until they stop interfering. You don't think they tried to prevent the 80's and 90's busts? I just hope they don't bankrupt the entire country in their attempts

We have also had massive price falls over a small period of time, although there is more to come. But this rate of fall is unsustainable over, say, a four year period. This leads me to believe that the falls will be fast and furious. My view is 45% fall, your view is 60%. It will probably be between these two sets of figures, but the time frame for the complete fall will be approx 2 years (Q3 2007) to end Q3 2009, with some slight gains Q4 2009.

Yes the rate of falls will slow when prices approach affordable levels. I'm counting on it. When YoY falls are less than £10,000 I'll be out there buying a house

The credit crunch is difficult to interprite. Caused obviously by financial greed, but where does it stop? How many more bail outs are there going to be and over what time period? I suspect the majority of (bank) bad news to have filtered through by end Q1 2009, maybe Q2 2009. Bearing this in mind and the current/future government action (guaranteeing housing loans, etc.) then it is entirely likely that mortgage lending will have risen by Q2/Q3 2009. After all we are at record lows, so it would be realitively easy to see a rise in lending.

Unemployment is key to this whole discussion, but there are too many known/unknown variables for me to discuss, however I am in broad agreement that unemployment will rise by a substantial amount.

In the first paragraph you think mortgage lending will rise. In the second paragraph you give the reason why it won't. This is unlikely to be a mild recession. Many financial commentators are comparing the situation with The Great Depression. Even the chancellor Alistor Darling is saying these are the worst economic conditions for 60 years.

So my view is that the correction will be brutal, but short. Many more records will be broken before the end of this process.

It will be brutal, but it is highly unlikely to be short. Can you give me any examples?

One of the most interesting aspects of the current housing crash, is the twin market that has/will develop. There will be a market for investors and a market for everyone else. The investor market (at 80k and less) is basically entirely independent of the average NI house price debate, as the top price an investor will pay (80K) is currently 60% less than the current average NI house price. Even today on propertynews.com there are 157 properties for sale at 80K and less, and a massive 400 at 90k or less. Investors will continue buying over the next year (as the purchases are cash flow positive and can be cherry picked at will), whereas the FTB (as an example) will not, as he sees the average house price dropping over time. In effect this will give us an unusual situation where both the argument for buying property (as investment) and not buying property (FTB's) will BOTH be technically correct. This process with both parties being in the right has caused much confusion with you bears, so I hope the above explains it OK.

I really think that the capital loss in the next few years will completely wipe out the rental yeilds. But it is your money to waste. Certainly I will not be investing in property. Did you know that I used to be a Landlord?

Many sellers have adjusted there prices to the new NI reality, so its time (over the next year) to take advantage of this for personnel long term wealth creation. As you're interested in historical data, check out the long term trend on the Nationwide average house price graph on this very site for proof of long term property gain. The long term trend only goes in one direction my friend.

You make me laugh. One of the other posters has told you why that graph is going up long term. Do you know what the average long term capital gain of property is? There have be articles on here about it - do a search. The average long term capital gain of property is 2.8% a year. However, you can leverage property which means it looks alot more attractive than other investments.

The graph I have in my signature is alot more relevant to the current situation.

PS, Just so there is no misunderstandings at a later date, even if the average NI house price rises by as little as £1 in Q4 2009; this still technically constitutes a rise. This is a silly comment I know, but it will help avoid any confusion for you bears at a later date.

I look forward to the end of 2009 and you being proved right. May your god help us all if I am right

Edited December 3, 2008 by Belfast Boy

[Belfast Boy]

The economic conditions are irrelevant to the 'profile' of the crash. Prices to not fall in a linear fashion - the fast initial drop will flatten out and will continue for 3-4 years, as all crashes do. Have a look at studies that Morgan Kelly of UCD did on previous housing crashes.

You make the mistake of thinking that the government know what to do, or that it will have any effect. The tragedy of many crashes is that people always think that they will end sooner than they do.

You also make the mistake of separating NI from the world economy - there can be no recovery in lending or housing until there is a recovery in the economy.

This applies to investors and FTBs alike - the logic of buying now for investors only works with a quick recovery and rising rents - with increasing rental stock and a collapsing economy we will have neither.

HERMY this is a really good post. Completely agree.

Though some of the rest of your posts are a bit confusing

[shipbuilder]

HERMY this is a really good post. Completely agree.

Though some of the rest of your posts are a bit confusing

Not HERMY.

[HERMY]

HERMY this is a really good post. Completely agree.

Though some of the rest of your posts are a bit confusing

As it has been discussed before this is not a typical crash as its global, its quick, its fast and its furious.

There will be a point when properties fall below the average line in NI...... are we in that period I would say possibly.

For those who were waiting on reposessions by the dozen you may have to wait longer or not at all as you have pointed out 2010 should be recovery.

If you look at history which yous are basing everything a house rises by roughly 7-8% at a year not the 2 or 3 % discussed by some.

NI crashed before the UK mainland and it may even show shoots of recovery. I met a young couple last night who are looking to buy they have 45k saved up that puts them in a really decent position in which they could buy practically anything....... why dont people be positive on this web site......... things were due for correction for sure

But the shoots of recovery are out there if u want to see them that is..........

Edited December 3, 2008 by HERMY

[paul65]

As it has been discussed before this is not a typical crash as its global, its quick, its fast and its furious.

There will be a point when properties fall below the average line in NI...... are we in that period I would say possibly.

For those who were waiting on reposessions by the dozen you may have to wait longer or not at all as you have pointed out 2010 should be recovery.

If you look at history which yous are basing everything a house rises by roughly 7-8% at a year not the 2 or 3 % discussed by some.

NI crashed before the UK mainland and it may even show shoots of recovery. I met a young couple last night who are looking to buy they have 45k saved up that puts them in a really decent position in which they could buy practically anything....... why dont people be positive on this web site......... things were due for correction for sure

But the shoots of recovery are out there if u want to see them that is..........

Hermy,

you might like to have a wee read about bubble economics from Dr Jean-Paul Rodriguez. See Bubbles, Manias and Bears

Then compare the two graphs below. The second (lower) one is from the most recent Northern Ireland Quarterly House Price Index Report. I'll grant you that the bull trap didn't actually materialise here but do you see any similarities?

[Belfast Boy]

NI crashed before the UK mainland and it may even show shoots of recovery. I met a young couple last night who are looking to buy they have 45k saved up that puts them in a really decent position in which they could buy practically anything....... why dont people be positive on this web site......... things were due for correction for sure

But the shoots of recovery are out there if u want to see them that is..........

I consider myself bipolar If the economic conditions look dire - as they currently do - then I will be negitively realistic. If the economic conditions start to look good, then I will be positively realistic.

You said it yourself...

You also make the mistake of separating NI from the world economy - there can be no recovery in lending or housing until there is a recovery in the economy.

Did you actually write this yourself or did you copy it from somewhere? Your posts are contradictory and confusing

Which is it - economic recovery first or green shoots first?

[HERMY]

Hermy,

you might like to have a wee read about bubble economics from Dr Jean-Paul Rodriguez. See Bubbles, Manias and Bears

Then compare the two graphs below. The second (lower) one is from the most recent Northern Ireland Quarterly House Price Index Report. I'll grant you that the bull trap didn't actually materialise here but do you see any similarities?

I can tell you from experience on the ground that we have aleady reached the despair level where people will not buy at any price, people are scared they are fearful of what has happened however if you have the balls now is the time to Buy.

People who thought they knew better that I talked to 3 Months ago said

Oil price will stay up for long time ....................... how wrong was that

Interest rates wont drop ........................how wrong was that

People are talking to me who are looking to buy.............................................. Positive (figures stand up)

If this isnt dispair when a house wont sell for less than it costs to build what would u call it ..................... just curious

There reaches a stage things cant get any lower in terms of house prices as it costs money to build them and materials arent getting any cheaper...................................

U will never call the very bottom only history will tell you on the way out..........

[HERMY]

I consider myself bipolar If the economic conditions look dire - as they currently do - then I will be negitively realistic. If the economic conditions start to look good, then I will be positively realistic.

You said it yourself...

Did you actually write this yourself or did you copy it from somewhere? Your posts are contradictory and confusing

Which is it - economic recovery first or green shoots first?

Belfast Boy I am trying yto figure you out you are obviously not a first time buyer

You are either a Buy to Let Landlord who is losing everything and knows its best to talk it into the ground, or else you claened up during the boom years and enjoy talking the market down so u can get a good old slice of the action again.........

Either way your criticisms of others only reflects on your own insecurities