Kingston Upon Thames

[worried1]

1 hour ago, Slimline said:

Seemed to a couple of months back but normal service has since resumed.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-61981549.html

bought for 272K in 2012:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=61981549&sale=83025714&country=england

Another crazy one:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-61982710.html

Certainly much higher than I expected. 

It is still that flat that surprises me the most. Funnily enough, a Rightmove alert came in with this today:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-50742060.html

Almost exactly the same price for almost exactly the same sized flat. This is in a very nice road as well, right by Richmond Park and quite a sought after area. It is 0.4 miles from the station rather than 0.1 miles which the Staines one is, but overall commutw would still be quicker, and a lot cheaper.

There are a lot of flats like this in this type of price range in Kingston now, so the Staines one seems very high.

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by worried1

[Slimline]

12 minutes ago, worried1 said:

Certainly much higher than I expected. 

It is still that flat that surprises me the most. Funnily enough, a Rightmove alert came in with this today:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-50742060.html

Almost exactly the same price for almost exactly the same sized flat. This is in q very nice road as well, right by Richmond Park and quite a sought after area. It is 0.4 miles from the station rather than 0.1 miles which the Staines one is, but overall commutw would still be quicker, and a lot cheaper.

There are a lot of flats like this in this type of price range in Kingston now, so the Staines one seems very high.

 

Couldn't agree more, Richmond is far better and is even in one of the zones making transport cheaper too!

Maybe it's just chancers going for a last roll of the dice.

[worried1]

5 hours ago, longgone said:

who knows. i don`t think there is an issue of "tools". tools = extra money in any form .  when you have a magic printer you can have as many tools as you like. 

i have read so much about reasons it should crash but it seems to keep going.  so we have 3 kinds of people now 

cash rich can buy outright overpriced house + overseas idiot 

BTL idiot lent money by banks to buy overpriced house 

stupid borrower FTB lent more money than they should to buy overpriced house 

either buyers wake up or the money stops coming somethings got to give. 

until people start losing money repo defaults etc there will be no crash 

 

 

 

Indeed.

The other problem is that the longer it goes on, the more and more people are becoming totally desensitised to seeing these prices, and seemingly prepared to do more and more to afford them, rather than just wait until something happens to reduce the prices.

If they waited, it might increase the chances of something positive happening, but why would people who have only seen massive house price inflation for the whole adult lives want to wait any longer to buy? I certainly wouldn’t have wanted to be the one to advise them to wait in 2012 given how much prices have gone up since then. Hopefully that won’t happen again, but who knows now?

The areas of Kingston and Surbiton often referred to in this thread are a good case in point. Not long ago, those small terraces on the river roads were solid working class houses, purchased on a mortgage based on a single salary probably around the equivalent of £30k in today’s money. The semis in the surrounding roads were owned by taxi drivers, skilled tradesmen and lower/middle managers – perhaps £50-60k salaries in today’s money.

The nice detached houses on the Southborough estate were the preserve of professional people earning, say, £100k+ in today’s terms, but imagine getting into one of those now on that salary!

These days, a six figure income is required even to buy a reasonable flat unless very generous parents are involved. That has got to be one of the biggest drops in standard of living that has ever been seen, yet still people are scrambling to get involved in case they fall further behind.

Increasing interest rates and removing the props must cause a crash of some type, but sentiment seems so strong now, that I can’t see how we’ll have get back to anything like the boomer generation might have considered ‘affordable’.

[longgone]

5 hours ago, worried1 said:

 

The areas of Kingston and Surbiton often referred to in this thread are a good case in point. Not long ago, those small terraces on the river roads were solid working class houses, purchased on a mortgage based on a single salary probably around the equivalent of £30k in today’s money. The semis in the surrounding roads were owned by taxi drivers, skilled tradesmen and lower/middle managers – perhaps £50-60k salaries in today’s money.

The nice detached houses on the Southborough estate were the preserve of professional people earning, say, £100k+ in today’s terms, but imagine getting into one of those now on that salary!

These days, a six figure income is required even to buy a reasonable flat unless very generous parents are involved. That has got to be one of the biggest drops in standard of living that has ever been seen, yet still people are scrambling to get involved in case they fall further behind.

Increasing interest rates and removing the props must cause a crash of some type, but sentiment seems so strong now, that I can’t see how we’ll have get back to anything like the boomer generation might have considered ‘affordable’.

i would be happy with 2007 prices again, even pre HTB in some areas. the prices are beyond a joke now flucking insane 

if i spoke a different language i would be off, it`s hard to not feel bitter about this country. 

i sold up in 2006 for 185k  new owners did not move again until 2012 selling for 196k  so bugger all profit time you take service charges out. i guess it saved paying rent . now these flats were going for 330k!    Thanks osbourne and HTB. 

funny thing i was telling people to buy in 2009 stating we are at the bottom. pity i never took my own advice. 

[dugsbody]

10 hours ago, longgone said:

if i spoke a different language i would be off, it`s hard to not feel bitter about this country. 

The problem is, if you live and work in London, it's likely you want to live and work in another capital city elsewhere. And pretty much every popular world city with a lot of jobs has the same problem as London, extremely high house prices.

My plan is to suck it up until I have enough to not need to work, then move to a nice, large relaxing house somewhere, probably France. At that point I'll start my own small business of some sort, something I get up and enjoy doing that just ticks over and makes me a bit on the side.

[worried1]

11 hours ago, longgone said:

funny thing i was telling people to buy in 2009 stating we are at the bottom. pity i never took my own advice. 

That is a shame. My regret was more around 2011-2. We'd seen the slight slump of 2008-9 and then a steady increase to well above 2007 prices. I couldn't see anything other than another (proper) crash at that point, but as we know, sustained 'emergency' interest rates, QE,  Help To Buy etc. all happened to mean prices took a very different route.

Edited September 27, 2017 by worried1

[kittingerjump]

3 hours ago, worried1 said:

That is a shame. My regret was more around 2011-2. We'd seen the slight slump of 2008-9 and then a steady increase to well above 2007 prices. I couldn't see anything other than another (proper) crash at that point, but as we know, sustained 'emergency' interest rates, QE,  Help To Buy etc. all happened to mean prices took a very different route.

I was in a similar position. In the end a decision was made to leave the area and although it took a little time to settle there's no regrets. Went back to Kingston a few weeks back and I felt some of the more interesting shops had been replaced by the usual suspects. It's even more crowded than I remember and for me has lost some of it's natural charm. Those prices that have been quoted are really unbelievable. I've not really kept up with the KT1 / KT2 area but having checked in I'm staggered by the expected asking prices. The amount of debt over people's heads must be horrendous. In my humble opinion a deep change to what owning a home needs to take place. It appears that landlords have benefiting over a long time; they have pushed out the likes of myself although as stated it turned out ok in the end!

[worried1]

22 minutes ago, kittingerjump said:

I was in a similar position. In the end a decision was made to leave the area and although it took a little time to settle there's no regrets. Went back to Kingston a few weeks back and I felt some of the more interesting shops had been replaced by the usual suspects. It's even more crowded than I remember and for me has lost some of it's natural charm. Those prices that have been quoted are really unbelievable. I've not really kept up with the KT1 / KT2 area but having checked in I'm staggered by the expected asking prices. The amount of debt over people's heads must be horrendous.

Glad to hear it worked out well for you. Where did you end up, broadly?

Unfortunately, the current council seem intent on removing any of the charm that Kingston has got left with over-development. Some of the awful buildings of the past (e.g. Eden Walk shopping centre) will go at the same time, but they are still removing a lot of the original buildings that gave the town some identity in the first place.

If you don't like it busy, I think you probably got out just at the right time! On top of all of the blocks that have been built in the past few years, there are huge developments approved for Eden Walk and the old Post Office site. Both will improve the town at ground level immensely, but at the cost of thousands more flats with the over-crowding issues that causes.

Other developments, like Queenshurst mentioned in previous posts, provide no real benefit for the community, but again, a lot more people.

All of this is being done against a solid background of zero infrastructure improvement to support a hugely inflated population - no plans to improve the inadequate train service or overcrowded one-way system that you would have been used to, health provision falling and schools not even opening at a fast enough rate to keep up with current demand, let alone what is coming.

It is the ripple-effect in full flow. It can ONLY be people moving from London who would look twice at most of the prices being asked now, and at the top end (£570k 1 bed flats), I can't believe even they are looking at them at all because it would be cheaper to stay put.

The variety of the shopping and entertainment offer is bound to decline further as well. The developers will want their pound of flesh, so there will be little to no chance of anything interesting or independent going into either of the new developments. Excessive business rate are also a big problem. 

I have never seen so many vacant shops in the Bentall Centre or the market place, and the less sought after shopping streets seem to have more empty units as well.

All in all, a sad story of a town that arguably had the opportunity to become/remain something pretty special, but instead bled dry by greedy developers and councils over a few decades.

I am sure that this is a similar situation to a lot of towns across the country, and it still doesn't motivate me to move as there are still quite a lot of positives (for now at least!). If I lived any closer to the centre, I would definitely think differently.

[worried1]

46 minutes ago, kittingerjump said:

In my humble opinion a deep change to what owning a home needs to take place. It appears that landlords have benefiting over a long time; they have pushed out the likes of myself although as stated it turned out ok in the end!

Absolutely right, but the problem is what will they change?

BtL have definitely had it too good for too long, but it is quite a powerful movement - look at the outrage that ensued when the Government dared to suggest that they could only offset half the tax on their mortgage interest, even though everyone else gets no relief at all. The sense of entitlement is strong...

It is going to take some strong action that will annoy a lot of people to sort this out, and I just don't think that anyone has got the appetite to do it. Lots of groups are making lots of money out of the housing bubble - developers, councils, banks, the Government, BtL etc., and no one else has the power to change it short of organising a buyers strike!

[Slimline]

Thing I see as the main problem is alot of youngsters have been brainwashed. More interested in Green protests and the EU than the price of a house. I heard a group talking about it the other day and just bit my tongue, it's not worth the breath!

[worried1]

There were a couple of relevant puff pieces in the Evening Standard property section last night.

The first one was a "move here" article on Kingston. It could be summarised as saying Kingston is fairly awful, but with cheap housing and good schools.The variety of shopping was criticised much as we have on this thread. British Land has been hailed as the saviour as it will rebuild the whole of the town centre and 'curate' the return of many independent shops and eateries. We'll see about that!

I quite like this type of article, clearly written by someone from central London (perhaps from British Land themselves?), painting making the move to the suburbs as a grim necessity, patronising 'locals' for liking Bentalls and John Lewis. All the many downsides mentioned, nothing about the river or Richmond Park etc. It should definitely make people think twice about moving there, but probably a little bit harsh.

 

The other one I didn't like so much. A fanciful piece about building flats on top of central London railway stations ended up by identifying 'under utilised suburban hubs' where the current housing density didn't match the volume of public transport available. Surbiton was one of the areas mentioned! I can't quite see how this could ever become a reality when it is almost impossible to get on a peak time train from Surbiton station as it is, let alone if they put even more flats in.

It clearly struck a chord as I heard two separate conversations about it this morning on my normally silent, packed train journey into London...

 

[longgone]

On 9/28/2017 at 9:10 AM, worried1 said:

 

The other one I didn't like so much. A fanciful piece about building flats on top of central London railway stations ended up by identifying 'under utilised suburban hubs' where the current housing density didn't match the volume of public transport available. Surbiton was one of the areas mentioned! I can't quite see how this could ever become a reality when it is almost impossible to get on a peak time train from Surbiton station as it is, let alone if they put even more flats in.

It clearly struck a chord as I heard two separate conversations about it this morning on my normally silent, packed train journey into London...

 

i thought surbiton was listed? as it was a art deco inspired building.

The developers would put them between the train tracks if they could get away with it, have you seen the two blocks going up where the old shell garage was across the road from the lamb pub ? 1 beds start at 425k nuts!

[worried1]

11 hours ago, longgone said:

i thought surbiton was listed? as it was a art deco inspired building.

 

The article was only talking about building actually on top of central London stations, the suburban approach was adding huge density to the areas directly surrounding them. I am not sure how they’d even do it in central London as you wouldn’t be able to build on top of most of them, or remove and rebuild. Euston maybe?

Surbiton Station is Grade II listed., so little chance of changing it, but plenty of other opportunities if a plan like this identifies it as an area to actually actively develop. Talks have rumbled on for years about building tower blocks on the station car park as it isn’t that well used.

It would be a great shame if they were to change too much around the station. That area is actually a very well laid out old town, dating back to when the railway first came to Surbiton. You’d not know it now at first glance, because it is liberally peppered with c**p, tired modern developments and a lot of the lovely original houses are now badly cared for bedsit-land,  but if it was knocked down then there wouldn’t be any chance of restoring them.

Edited September 30, 2017 by worried1

[worried1]

11 hours ago, longgone said:

The developers would put them between the train tracks if they could get away with it, have you seen the two blocks going up where the old shell garage was across the road from the lamb pub ? 1 beds start at 425k nuts!

I’ve seen it. Brighton Road is a classic example of one that was probably really nice originally,  but fell victim to a lot of poor development in the 1960s-70s and is now unlikely to recover. The Jewson and MOT garage there are more 1970s northern town than 2017 commuter hub. Awful.

As crazy as it is, £425k is probably about what I’d expect in this market as long as they are good sized flats. £350k seems to be the prevailing rate for a ‘second hand’ flat, so they are charging a 20% stupid tax, which is a lot less than Queenshurst. I guess some will go to shared ownership, so they have to pump the original price up first to make it seem more reasonable.

 

[longgone]

3 hours ago, worried1 said:

I’ve seen it. Brighton Road is a classic example of one that was probably really nice originally,  but fell victim to a lot of poor development in the 1960s-70s and is now unlikely to recover. The Jewson and MOT garage there are more 1970s northern town than 2017 commuter hub. Awful.

As crazy as it is, £425k is probably about what I’d expect in this market as long as they are good sized flats. £350k seems to be the prevailing rate for a ‘second hand’ flat, so they are charging a 20% stupid tax, which is a lot less than Queenshurst. I guess some will go to shared ownership, so they have to pump the original price up first to make it seem more reasonable.

 

not much selling for 350k 1 beds anyway , seen plenty under 300k as well. 425k is well out probably 350k as you have to pay the new build tax

[worried1]

On 9/30/2017 at 12:43 PM, longgone said:

not much selling for 350k 1 beds anyway , seen plenty under 300k as well. 425k is well out probably 350k as you have to pay the new build tax

I guess it will depend how long the developer can afford to hold on to them without discounting. I think that these were based on the local going rate being £350k for older 1 bed flats, but as you say, the ones selling are going for less than that now.

Private sellers have got the choice to pull their flat off the market if they don't like the lower prices, developers are in a bit more of a difficult position, but obviously have more cash to cushion themselves. I am not sure how it works if they sell some of the flats on a shared ownership basis at £425k and then sell the remaining ones at less. The shared ownership buyers presumably wouldn't be happy!

The other thing is it is on Brighton Road, designated a B road, but pretty much arterial these days. Because it is central, they probably think they are competing with this type of thing:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-68299784.html

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-46744140.html

In reality, I'd expect the main road location to put a lot of people off, even with the perceived benefits of a new build. 

 

[longgone]

58 minutes ago, worried1 said:

I guess it will depend how long the developer can afford to hold on to them without discounting. I think that these were based on the local going rate being £350k for older 1 bed flats, but as you say, the ones selling are going for less than that now.

Private sellers have got the choice to pull their flat off the market if they don't like the lower prices, developers are in a bit more of a difficult position, but obviously have more cash to cushion themselves. I am not sure how it works if they sell some of the flats on a shared ownership basis at £425k and then sell the remaining ones at less. The shared ownership buyers presumably wouldn't be happy!

The other thing is it is on Brighton Road, designated a B road, but pretty much arterial these days. Because it is central, they probably think they are competing with this type of thing:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-68299784.html

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-46744140.html

In reality, I'd expect the main road location to put a lot of people off, even with the perceived benefits of a new build. 

 

i honestly think buyers don`t care where it is , is it near the station that`s it.

that last one in the roof void is dire 150k overpriced if you ask me, and i still would not buy it.

[worried1]

6 hours ago, longgone said:

i honestly think buyers don`t care where it is , is it near the station that`s it.

that last one in the roof void is dire 150k overpriced if you ask me, and i still would not buy it.

You're probably right. I'd personally never live on a road like Brighton road, and would pay more to be on a quieter one if still central, but perhaps that isn't typical.

Agree about the loft flat. Quite a nice location, but greedy use of space and a lot of flights of stairs to do each day!

[worried1]

I thought that the price of this one was a bit eye-catching:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-50841264.html

I definitely approve of building houses rather than just flats in Kingston, and I also prefer when they build somewhat in character with the existing area, but the location of these houses is not exactly desirable. For those that don't know, Albert Road was probably a lovely part of Victorian Kingston, but is now a traffic clogged one-way street feeding the main one-way system and very close to the infamous Cambridge Estate.

When they put the one-way system in, a lot of residential roads were ripped out completely, and a lot were partially left, like this one. A shame, but the original character/desirability won't be coming back anytime soon. 

There is no floorplan, but they look a reasonable size, so this current market might just stretch to £1m if they were on one of north Kingston's sought after roads or Surbiton's river roads, but I can't see them getting anything like that in Albert Road.

[longgone]

On 03/10/2017 at 2:45 PM, worried1 said:

I thought that the price of this one was a bit eye-catching:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-50841264.html

 

what is there to say, expensive at half the price. kingston is over if you ask me.  the prices being asked for property you can live in zone 2 for flats and the housing stock is not much better.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-69108197.html  not much difference in price to surbiton and much closer to the city although the outside needs a paint. 

parking space too not far to walk to chelsea surbiton money 

as i said already surbiton prices are dead no one will buy when they can buy nearer to town,  i expect sub 300k for plenty next year. 

[worried1]

13 hours ago, longgone said:

what is there to say, expensive at half the price. kingston is over if you ask me.  the prices being asked for property you can live in zone 2 for flats and the housing stock is not much better.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-69108197.html  not much difference in price to surbiton and much closer to the city although the outside needs a paint. 

parking space too not far to walk to chelsea surbiton money 

as i said already surbiton prices are dead no one will buy when they can buy nearer to town,  i expect sub 300k for plenty next year. 

I agree. It is in a state of flux at the moment. The prices in more central places have come down relatively significantly, some asking prices in Surbiton/Kingston have come down (but by a smaller percentage whilst others are higher than ever before.

This bedsit breaks the £1,000 per sqft barrier and would probably cost less anywhere apart from prime central London:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-69195071.html

I notice that Queenshurst have started advertising their 3 bed flats now - £980k!!

 

 

[longgone]

1 hour ago, worried1 said:

I agree. It is in a state of flux at the moment. The prices in more central places have come down relatively significantly, some asking prices in Surbiton/Kingston have come down (but by a smaller percentage whilst others are higher than ever before.

This bedsit breaks the £1,000 per sqft barrier and would probably cost less anywhere apart from prime central London:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-69195071.html

I notice that Queenshurst have started advertising their 3 bed flats now - £980k!!

 

 

285k to live in one room. i would rather piss my money away for a few years then book into dignitas if that was the only option you had. 

depressing if you lived their free.  

980k for a flat built on an old gasometer site and your view is sainsburys. 300k max for that rubbish. 

zone 2 is looking far more attractive to me 

[worried1]

3 hours ago, longgone said:

285k to live in one room. i would rather piss my money away for a few years then book into dignitas if that was the only option you had. 

depressing if you lived their free.  

980k for a flat built on an old gasometer site and your view is sainsburys. 300k max for that rubbish. 

zone 2 is looking far more attractive to me 

Well the signs all look good so far, provided the central zones don't start shooting upwards in price again.

I think that the examples we have referred to here show that the more realistic asking prices in zone 2 aren't being fully reflected further out yet. There seem to be three distinct groups:

1. Those who are ignoring what has happened in the market and just are just asking last year's price plus 10% anyway. This is a large minority of normal sellers and all of the developers of Queenshurst et al.

2. Those who seem to get it a bit more, but are either asking last year's price or very slightly below it, making their properties too expensive in relation to inner London. This seems to be the largest single group if you exclude the developers.

3. A very small number who are asking lower prices and are selling quite quickly.

 

It is quite standard, I suppose, the ripple effect in reverse. No one wants to be told that their house is worth less than it was last year, so a lot of people will either decide not to sell, or just try to sell at what they think it is worth anyway.

A few forced sellers coming through on the LR figures would probably go a long way to convincing people that the market is a bit lower now.

Further out will take even longer. I am not sure how I got on their mailing list, but I keep getting communications from Seymours EA telling me that they have got a good selection of 3 bed houses at £650k! Good luck with that...

[longgone]

On 10/5/2017 at 3:09 PM, worried1 said:

 

Further out will take even longer. I am not sure how I got on their mailing list, but I keep getting communications from Seymours EA telling me that they have got a good selection of 3 bed houses at £650k! Good luck with that...

it`s all got a bit silly now. i rarely even look at prices now.  when they are back are pre HTB levels and then sellers take offers i might buy with no mortgage.  a flat will do me. 

[Slimline]

One for record books here:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-69526964.html 

>200K uplift over the most recent sales