Return To Victorian Society Confirmed

[Guest Cletus VanDamme]

New report out from the Sutton Trust:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/reports/...ity_index.shtml

Previous report here:

http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAndI...rust_report.htm

Sir Peter Lampl, chairman of the Sutton Trust, said: 'These findings are truly shocking. The results show that social mobility in Britain is much lower than in other advanced countries and is declining - those from less privileged backgrounds are more likely to continue facing disadvantage into adulthood, and the affluent continue to benefit disproportionately from educational opportunities.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Cletus VanDamme

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

Hardly surprising. After a massive expansion of the middle class post-war social mobility was necessary to fill roles that required more brain than brawn.

Now three in four jobs can be prefixed 'Mc' so we're heading in the opposite direction.

If we trained everyone as rocket scientists it would just mean some rocket scientists were cleaning the bogs.

Simple as...

Edited June 25, 2007 by CrashedOutAndBurned

[A Fool & His Borrowed Money]

Now three in four jobs can be prefixed 'Mc' so we're heading in the opposite direction.

If we trained everyone as rocket scientists it would just mean some rocket scientists were cleaning the bogs.

Simple as...

Maybe tone should have said "Jobs, Jobs, Jobs" instead of "education, education, education"

See,

when you've got the qualifacation, were's the job????

[Converted Lurker]

The Sutton Trust's media section is full of thought provoking press releases, research and statements, can't find todays release though

http://www.suttontrust.com/news.asp#a025

[Willy Weasel]

"Every man for himself and God for us all" as the elephant said as he danced among the chickens

[Orbital]

yeah, my experience is that kids from poorer backgrounds tend to achieve less. But why?

My mate works in a school in a nice part of Surrey. On the doorstep is a council estate. The school used to be 100% intake from the estate and had 30% pass rate or so. But it expanded and took in the rich kids from parents who didnt believe in private education (yep they do exist).

Now the pass rate is 70%.

So im told, the under achievers are still the ones from the deprived background. But why? The same kids in the same school with the same teachers, motivation, access to education and extra curricular activities. Yet the link between poverty and success is still there. Personally I think its because the parents pass on their own low ambition and lack of drive.

This is not about "opportunity".

Throwing money at the problem isnt going to solve anything. The money is already there. Labour have actually thrown lots of cash at schools, again speaking for this example, the school has had money to expand its intake and facilities massively.

I always like the parents evening anecdotes. Apparently you can spot certain kids parents a mile off, they are the wet ones who are there going "what can we do, he just does what he wants". Erm.. how about be a parent to your child?

Anyway, 'scuse the sterotyping, most kids are OK and do work hard. But then so do most people in this country. I just dont believe that "opportunity" is the problem here. We need to educate and enforce responsible parenting, throwing money elsewhere is attacking the symptom not the cause.

GL !

[bambam]

So im told, the under achievers are still the ones from the deprived background. But why? The same kids in the same school with the same teachers, motivation, access to education and extra curricular activities. Yet the link between poverty and success is still there. Personally I think its because the parents pass on their own low ambition and lack of drive.

Correct. I work with Chinese and Indians from poor backgrounds: sh1tty inner-city sink schools, council estates that are filled with white chavs, but the parental support and values means they have done good.

These two cultural groups are highest achievers in GCSE pass rates, above whites (due to the vast white underclass). OTOH, Pakistani/Bangladeshi & black children do very poorly, due to lack of parental value placed on education, and a lack of ambition in their culture.

It has got nothing to do with poverty and everything to do with parenting. In the case of indigenous whites the poverty follows from the fact that the parents are welfare-addicted scum; for the immigrant Chinese and Indians who arrive poor, the poverty is due to the fact they come from a poor country, but when given the ample opportunity in Britain (a poor person from a village in China has little chance of becoming a doctor or lawyer - in the UK anyone can), they take it.

[thedebtisreal]

New report out from the Sutton Trust:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/reports/...ity_index.shtml

Previous report here:

http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAndI...rust_report.htm

I agree with your Victorian society theory to an extent Cletus, but feel this will, as always is the case be more about jobs than assets.

I huge number of middle class jobs are about to disappear overseas.

[southsea13]

Too much theory, not enough practice. I`ve got two university degrees: one was attained in the early `90s (when a degree still had some value); the other in the late `90s at postgraduate level. Neither degree has been of any use whatsoever - it makes me laugh when I see some poor sod going off to uni. to study some superfluous subject. At the degree passing-out ceremonies, they should make graduates wear Burger King / McDonald uniforms, not gowns and mortar. I can just hear the Vice-Chancellor`s speech after having handing out the degress:

`Such an inspiring body of young people, taking their experience and knowledge to the wider community. A shining example to all of our young people. By the way I`ll have large fries with my order!`

Edited June 25, 2007 by southsea13

[u4d18]

So called poverty in this country is just an excuse for laziness. If these kids were really in poverty then they'd be working their butts off at school 'cos it's one of the best chances of bettering their lot in life. Just have to look at third world countries and their children's work ethic, where they are in REAL poverty. This country doesn't know what poverty is, they have clothes, they have food, they have accomodation. It makes me sick to think that we waste tax payers money on these idiots who can't be bothered at school and cause trouble requiring 'special' attention i.e. 1 to 1 which is even more expensive. Even more so when I think of the kids from truly deprived backgrounds in third world who would give an arm and a leg for the oppurtunities which the kids in this country experience.

[thedebtisreal]

I am involved in recruiting for the investment bank that I work for.

I would say 80% are either Chinese or Indian or Asian other (most are british citizens). 15% are white other (American, Australian, South African, European other). About 5% are white english. 5%! And none from working class backgrounds. Why are our youth so unambitious?

[Guest grumpy-old-man]

Too much theory, not enough practice. I`ve got two university degrees: one was attained in the early `90s (when a degree still had some value); the other in the late `90s at postgraduate level. Neither degree has been of any use whatsoever - it makes me laugh when I see some poor sod going off to uni. to study some superfluous subject. At the degree passing-out ceremonies, they should make graduates wear Burger King / McDonald uniforms, not gowns and mortar. I can just hear the Vice-Chancellor`s speech after having handing out the degress:

`Such an inspiring body of young people, taking their experience and knowledge to the wider community. A shining example to all of our young people. By the way I`ll have large fries with my order!`

a degree is not what it used to be imo.

we just don't really make clever people any more, a merit is the new distinction & so on etc.

How the hell can you have a 20 year old running a team of people when he/she hasn't got any real life experience. This is one of the big changes that I have noticed over the last decade or so.

The average shop manager now is about 25 max (on a Saturday about 19 ) & they clearly have no real experience of dealing with problems or day to day issues.

[right_freds_dead]

Why are our youth so unambitious?

because theres no reward and no point.

[MarkG]

I am involved in recruiting for the investment bank that I work for.

I would say 80% are either Chinese or Indian or Asian other (most are british citizens). 15% are white other (American, Australian, South African, European other). About 5% are white english. 5%! And none from working class backgrounds. Why are our youth so unambitious?

Maybe they aspire to something more in life than shovelling money around in a bank?

If you go to a group of young kids and ask them what they want to do in life, how many would say they want to work in a bank? When I was young, the kids I grew up with wanted to be astronauts, pilots, doctors, soldiers, cops... I never met one who actually wanted to work in a bank, though a couple ended up there.

Do you really think they'll get to 90 years old, lying on their death bed, and think 'thank God I got that job in the bank that I always wanted, and achieved all my childhood dreams of multi-million pound mergers and acquisitions'?

[MarkG]

Oh, and as for the thread title, yeah, the people of Britain will definitely just sit back and let the new landlord class walk all over them. Right.

Victorian society required that the masses largely obeyed their 'betters'; that's not the case anymore. There's a limit to how long they can be bought off with bread, circuses and reality TV.

[sinclair]

New report out from the Sutton Trust:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/reports/...ity_index.shtml

Previous report here:

http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/pressAndI...rust_report.htm

Remember to add you comments to the Today programme debate too -

Housing debate

[sossij]

Maybe they aspire to something more in life than shovelling money around in a bank?

If you go to a group of young kids and ask them what they want to do in life, how many would say they want to work in a bank? When I was young, the kids I grew up with wanted to be astronauts, pilots, doctors, soldiers, cops... I never met one who actually wanted to work in a bank, though a couple ended up there.

Do you really think they'll get to 90 years old, lying on their death bed, and think 'thank God I got that job in the bank that I always wanted, and achieved all my childhood dreams of multi-million pound mergers and acquisitions'?

Exactly, well said. Heh heh, remember John Major ran away from the circus to become an accountant - there's always one!

[thedebtisreal]

Maybe they aspire to something more in life than shovelling money around in a bank?

If you go to a group of young kids and ask them what they want to do in life, how many would say they want to work in a bank? When I was young, the kids I grew up with wanted to be astronauts, pilots, doctors, soldiers, cops... I never met one who actually wanted to work in a bank, though a couple ended up there.

Do you really think they'll get to 90 years old, lying on their death bed, and think 'thank God I got that job in the bank that I always wanted, and achieved all my childhood dreams of multi-million pound mergers and acquisitions'?

Fine. It's not glamour work, but I'm not my job. Nor am I saying it should be the pinacle of achievement. If I was given the choice of being a novelist for half the money I'm on now, I would snap at the chance. But that's life.

How many of your friends grew up to be astronauts, pilots, doctors, soldiers, cops, perchance? And if everyone did take these jobs, who would actually be left to grow the economy?

Whether you like it or not, Banking is probably the only functioning part of our economy right now. And good, very highly paid and highly travelled jobs are being taken by people who grew up in this country, but whose parents didn't.

[MarkG]

How many of your friends grew up to be astronauts, pilots, doctors, soldiers, cops, perchance?

Actually, quite a few. Though none of them did get to be astronauts.

And if everyone did take these jobs, who would actually be left to grow the economy?

How does banking 'grow the economy', other than by printing fake money that creates booms followed by busts? We'd all be better off without most of what the banks do.

Whether you like it or not, Banking is probably the only functioning part of our economy right now. And good, very highly paid and highly travelled jobs are being taken by people who grew up in this country, but whose parents didn't.

But that's a clear sign of the decline of this country. Financialisation of the economy at the expense of everything else is a pretty clear sign that it's on the verge of collapse.

[Ruffian]

I am involved in recruiting for the investment bank that I work for.

I would say 80% are either Chinese or Indian or Asian other (most are british citizens). 15% are white other (American, Australian, South African, European other). About 5% are white english. 5%! And none from working class backgrounds. Why are our youth so unambitious?

80% of what? 80% of applicants, or 80% of those who are eventually offered jobs?

Assuming it's the former, then maybe it's down to cultural factors, rather than lack of ambition. I am a White English male aged 30. I suppose I could be classed as middle class, but both of my parents are from working class backgrounds. I was a "bright" and "ambitious" child at school (whatever that means), but when it came to the question of what I wanted to be when I grew up, investment banking didn't even register on the radar. It wasn't something I was encouraged to think about by my parents, relatives, teachers, or anyone else.

It's not as if our family knew any rich bankers, either, so there wasn't anyone in my parents' circle of family and friends that I felt encouraged to emulate. To be honest, I was of voting age - and already at university studying Medicine - before I even knew what investment banking was.

I would venture that most White English people (and especially working class people) see banking as a kind of sleazy and disresputable profession - something you would go into if you value Mammon above all else, but not something you should do if you want to be able to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning. Hence, they aspire to jobs where you either make/fix/sell things, or where you provide services that directly benefit Joe Public. Perhaps children from other backgrounds, particularly those of non-European stock, do not have these cultural barriers to contend with.

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

I am involved in recruiting for the investment bank that I work for.

I would say 80% are either Chinese or Indian or Asian other (most are british citizens). 15% are white other (American, Australian, South African, European other). About 5% are white english. 5%! And none from working class backgrounds. Why are our youth so unambitious?

Because they're smart enough to realise that investment banking mainly involves manipulation and theft. Why go all the way to London to steal when you can break into a car down the road? The hours are better, and you can get just as many drugs at parties. Prison is a good place to relax and do a bit of art, make some hooch from apples and bread. No worry about feeding or housing yourself.

As a graduate from this background you can expect to be in 30k of debt at the end of Uni with a job starting at about 14-20k, have to worry about housing, be told to stay in the pecking order when it is quite obvious that many of the rule bases around you are purely protectionist and placed there by those insecure in their role because deep down they know they are flying on ******** and that anyone has the skillset to replace them.

The Chinese and Asians are still buying the dream that if you drive the right car, own the right house, buy the right clothes then you're a success. We've been selling them smiling western featured advertising that a BMW suddenly makes you happy, gives you sparkling teeth and a western girl with perfect temperament. They still believe in that.

Bankers get up at 5, leave at 8, live alone during the week except for the occasional hour with a tart. Go back to the wife at weekends on the estate in Dorset who pretends she's happy with the 12 bed estate, horses and the kids in the local private school, whilst downing Prozac. Whilst at work the bankers are aware that the job has no long term security at all and thus must out-earn each other regardless of the effect this has on the society outside their square mile. The fact is you're about as likely to exit banking as a broken, divorced mess as you are to leave at 35 start organic farming as a reaction to the avaricious shit you've been put through.

Edited June 25, 2007 by DissipatedYouthIsValuable

[thedebtisreal]

Actually, quite a few. Though none of them did get to be astronauts.

Then you have much more ambitious class mates than I did at my comprehensive. Most of them ended up in call centres, tescos, or on the dole with a teenage girl complaining about how immigration is supressing their wages. Most still live with their parents.

How does banking 'grow the economy', other than by printing fake money that creates booms followed by busts? We'd all be better off without most of what the banks do.

Really? Most? How does governments finance infrastructure without banking? How do businesses grow without debt? Would Virgin or Amstrad or Coffee Republic be anything like as successful without the pushing around of money? What about the investment in emerging markets? In dubai, in china, in singapore, in India? None of these could happen without banking. What about cross border transactions? Easy money at cashpoints when abroad? Pensions? The expansion of the banking sector is what allowed wide scale home ownership from 10% to 70%. The working classes couldn't get credit and were stuck in council and renting accomodation. There is pointless elements of banking, I agree but to smash an entire industry seems a little blunt.

But that's a clear sign of the decline of this country. Financialisation of the economy at the expense of everything else is a pretty clear sign that it's on the verge of collapse.

Actually, I agree with this. Not that financial services are bad, but more that we are too reliant on them. The business cycles for banks are very, very harsh and we don't have much left in the rest of the economy to prop it up. That's dangerous.

But my original point still remains. The indigenous english children are underperforming in this new, highly competitive labour environment. They are failing badly. Look at your signature.

Edited June 25, 2007 by thedebtisreal

[Ruffian]

But my original point still remains. The indigenous english children are underperforming in this new, highly competitive labour environment. They are failing badly.

"new, highly competitive labour environment" - isn't that just another way of saying there are fewer jobs?

I don't see how "underperforming/failing badly" equates to "not wanting to be an investment banker", which is all you really said in your earlier post. Unless you think investment banking is a career everyone should aspire to, with any other career being a consolation prize for the losers.

[MarkG]

How does governments finance infrastructure without banking?

Governments shouldn't be 'financing infrastructure'.

How do businesses grow without debt?

By, you know, making stuff and earning money?

Would Virgin or Amstrad or Coffee Republic be anything like as successful without the pushing around of money?

Ah, Amstrad, producer of cheap electronic crap, and Coffee Republic, that glaring example of our high-tech industry leading the way into the 21st century.

What about the investment in emerging markets? In dubai, in china, in singapore, in India?

What about it?

What about cross border transactions? Easy money at cashpoints when abroad?

What about it? Bankers eliminated money based on precious metals that could be used world-wide, and now claim they're great because they allow us to change paper currencies while taking a percentage.

Pensions?

Pensions, of course, wouldn't be a problem in a world where banks didn't create inflation that prevented us from just sticking our savings under the mattress. The banks create inflation, then claim that if we give them our money they'll protect it from the inflation they created, while coincidentally taking huge bonuses out of our money every year. Then after fifty years, if we're lucky, they give us back an amount of money roughly equivalent in real terms to the amount we saved.

The expansion of the banking sector is what allowed wide scale home ownership from 10% to 70%.

High wage inflation is what allowed that, because it wiped out debts. My parents would have been screwed by the cost of their mortgage if they'd had to pay it off without that wage inflation destroying the real cost.

The working classes couldn't get credit and were stuck in council and renting accomodation.

Now they can get all the credit they want, and can't afford to pay it back.

I agree but to smash an entire industry seems a little blunt.

Banking comes second only to law in screwing up people's lives in Western societies purely for the sake of making money. I'd rather spend my day shovelling crap.

But my original point still remains. The indigenous english children are underperforming in this new, highly competitive labour environment. They are failing badly. Look at your signature.

What do you expect them to do when your banks and their easy credit have priced them out of living any kind of decent life? Why even bother getting out of bed to slave away for 25k a year when you'll never be able to buy a house or afford kids? Do you really think we can all get rich by shovelling money from one account to another and scraping a percentage off the top?

BTW, the only investment banker I've met in the last few years said he spends most of his time playing computer games at work or bullshitting in meetings. I'm sure you could find plenty of English kids who are more than capable of doing that for 100k a year.

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

Governments shouldn't be 'financing infrastructure'.

By, you know, making stuff and earning money?

Ah, Amstrad, producer of cheap electronic crap, and Coffee Republic, that glaring example of our high-tech industry leading the way into the 21st century.

What about it?

What about it? Bankers eliminated money based on precious metals that could be used world-wide, and now claim they're great because they allow us to change paper currencies while taking a percentage.

Pensions, of course, wouldn't be a problem in a world where banks didn't create inflation that prevented us from just sticking our savings under the mattress. The banks create inflation, then claim that if we give them our money they'll protect it from the inflation they created, while coincidentally taking huge bonuses out of our money every year. Then after fifty years, if we're lucky, they give us back an amount of money roughly equivalent in real terms to the amount we saved.

High wage inflation is what allowed that, because it wiped out debts. My parents would have been screwed by the cost of their mortgage if they'd had to pay it off without that wage inflation destroying the real cost.

Now they can get all the credit they want, and can't afford to pay it back.

Banking comes second only to law in screwing up people's lives in Western societies purely for the sake of making money. I'd rather spend my day shovelling crap.

What do you expect them to do when your banks and their easy credit have priced them out of living any kind of decent life? Why even bother getting out of bed to slave away for 25k a year when you'll never be able to buy a house or afford kids? Do you really think we can all get rich by shovelling money from one account to another and scraping a percentage off the top?

BTW, the only investment banker I've met in the last few years said he spends most of his time playing computer games at work or bullshitting in meetings. I'm sure you could find plenty of English kids who are more than capable of doing that for 100k a year.

Pichforks to Islington!