Britain On The Fiddle 8Pm Bbc1 Tonight

[dipstick]

Laurejon - That's what most people don't realise. This small minority of non-workers, are actually expected and acceptable in the Government's eyes.

But the public jump on the blame culture band-wagon and start beating via broad brush stroke anyone who every vaguely comes into contact with this end of the system.

What they don't realise is the costs of running that particular end of the system probably far outweigh anything the whole lot combined would get in benefits.

It's all a big propaganda stunt really.

Same as the way the unemployment figures are calculated. I think in one year back in the early 90s it was changed 17 times in a year. Or at least that's what a lecturer told us. I know when I did it the Government were always changing round the way people were calculated as being 'officially' unemployed - depending on what they wanted to tell the public and how they wanted to pay out funding for 'successes.'

Lies, lies and damned statistics.

I actually don't know anything about Universal Credit - I'm one of those that ain't sick and can't simply claim to be jobless...

[SarahBell]

My husband ended up in hospital with an unusual blood clotting for weeks on end just because they could not get him time on a particular machine. In the end we paid privately for the access. A hospital bed costs a lot of money and he was off work as well.

Most of the doctors we would like to see as NHS patients also have private practises. The NHS queues keep getting longer and their private practises flourish. Some consultants have given up entirely on the NHS as they simply cannot offer the level of service they want.

Surely the conflict of private and public is the issue. Ban all private doctoring and you're sorted?

[dipstick]

Surely the conflict of private and public is the issue. Ban all private doctoring and you're sorted?

Do you know, on Planet Lala, that might actually work! On the face of it it seems reasonable enough.

Here on Earth though, what would actually happen is that the consultants wouldn't work till 9pm at night on the wages the NHS pay them. And, even if they did, the NHS GPs won't work the extra to do the initial exams and referrals. Plus they would have to have support staff (admin and nurses) that would also be willing to work the extra hours on NHS pay. Then there are the managers. Now, they can't manage what they've got now under the NHS - overloaded. So, how would we go about keeping them happy and fulfilled?

You want to see the world return to a fully functioning NHS. It needs reforming. From the GPs upwards.

[libspero]

I'd like to see it cracked down on more.. the program only highlights a few cases. As a tax payer I am happy to pay extra to ensure that the right people get benefits and people on the fiddle get their noses rubbed in it. If there was more investigation it might not be necessary to rely quite so heavily on medical examinations.

The most satisfying part for me was watching the Blue-badge holders get questioned. People taking advantage of the system deserve to be embarrassed in public like that. Excellent viewing.

[winkie]

By not cracking down on benefit theft they are saying "feel free to help yourself"...by not cracking down on border control they are saying "feel free to enter the open door".

[dipstick]

It's not a case of cracking down, it's a case of cracking down on the right people.

What the current system does is try and prove all the claimants (I'm talking disability here) are malingerers. Which it shouldn't be.

If you think about it, most people who have got to the stage of claiming such benefits have already been assessed by many, many, medical professionals prior to getting to the stage where the system is considering cutting off benefits. It's already cost a fortune just to get to the end game.

Earlier this year there were a couple of cases in Scotland, I think within a month, whereby benefits had been stopped and both people died of their illnesses before they could be finalised. That is third world stuff. It's disgusting and abhorrent.

Sick people shouldn't have to fight this stuff.

I know somebody else who had benefits stopped for well over 6 months. His wife, who's got a brain tumour, had to fight on his behalf. Yes. He did win and get his benefits back dated - but Jeez, there has to be something seriously wrong with the system when people have to suffer in this way ...

As I stated earlier, I couldn't claim anything, nothing, simply because my GP refused to acknowledge I was ill. Even now, when I actually have the evidence to prove I was ill, the NHS refuse to acknowledge it.

What we forget here is that these systems are put in place to protect the vulnerable. And we can all become vulnerable. In its effort to prove the guilt of the people who try and fiddle the system, and there will always be those (which the Government are aware of) the priorities have been changed from protection to attack.

[laurejon]

Divide and Rule.

Funny how everytime we have a government that put people out of work as part of the Austerity measures to repair the previous parties damage it comes with TV programmes showing the police clamping down on rioters, benefits claimants, disabled people, and anyone else the previously welcomed with open arms.

I am guessing that the Government are going to be peddling the mass immigration story, whilst simultaneously waving them in.

Looking at the UK from a distance I can see that no matter what party is in power, they are all following the same path and destination. in essence, your political system is corrupt.

[dipstick]

I absolutely agree with you Laurejon.

The problem with the UK is that it has a believable (at least by the people living here) veneer or equality, fairness and caring. What is actually happening is completely the opposite.

To be honest I think the government (whichever one) would spend whatever it takes to keep feeding the population 'victims.' It is indeed, Divide and Rule.

[Lone_Twin]

I absolutely agree with you Laurejon.

The problem with the UK is that it has a believable (at least by the people living here) veneer or equality, fairness and caring. What is actually happening is completely the opposite.

To be honest I think the government (whichever one) would spend whatever it takes to keep feeding the population 'victims.' It is indeed, Divide and Rule.

I agree with the first part of what you wrote, but as for the second... If the only qualification for wealth is need you just end up with a lot of needy people.

Look at the ex industrial north and most of wales. If incapacity figures are to be believed there is a public health hazard of epidemic proportions stalking the land. But of course what has really happened is that a system has been created which facilitates, promotes and requires neediness.

I include in that "system" modern banking, land monopoly, planning restrictions, restriction of enterprise but if we are to be rational also the benefit culture.

[dipstick]

Well, I'm just looking at the benefit culture, purely because that's how the thread started out and it's what I am talking about relative to what everybody else is saying.

Do I agree with your regarding the 2nd para???

Don't know the figures for the benefits north vs south. Can't comment.

Do I agree with a system that promotes neediness? Phew. Well, that depends on your interpretation. If somebody comes out of work, or is ill, they need enough money to survive (and by that I don't just mean a can of beans per day) They also need enough incentive to get them back into work.

I tell you one thing I was pleased to see brought in, and that was the Working Tax Credit - I was thrilled.

Prior to this I had worked with the long-term unemployed and the worst affected were single men. Either never married or divorced. Plus, this is the group that are classed as 'fit to work,' and therefore hit the system (as opposed to other singles).

Prior to Working Tax Credit (and minimum wage) these men were being forced to take jobs that hardly covered their bedsit rent. Nobody can afford to live like that. They were under tremendous pressure to live in destitution no matter which way they turned.

Minimum wage comes in and instead of these blokes being offered £2.20 an hour and being told they had to take the work, they were being offered £5.75. Then we got Working Tax Credit.

All great stuff from where I (and possibly they) were standing.

Don't know what the minimum wage is now (I could Google but can't be bothered) just guessing but comparative to house prices, petrol, rents and the general cost of living, this will have gone down.

Therefore, is the benefits system more attractive and therefore promoting neediness or aren't wages enough of an incentive?

Plus, of course, we may be all missing a small point in that the work place is no longer as secure as it was. The benefits system may appeal to folk precisely because of it's security?

[leicestersq]

The benefits should be stopped for everyone caught cheating, forever. At the moment the worst that happens is that you have to pay it back, or in other words you get a free go at fraud.

More difficult for those with sickness problems. As there is no sure way if discriminating those in need from those that aren't, you are going to get very different treatment depending on who judges you. This can range from healthy people getting benefits thanks to dishonest officials, through to benefits being denied to desperately sick people due to mistakes made by different officials. One thing is for sure, without some sort of reform the system will go bust and no one will get anything then.

[dipstick]

The benefits should be stopped for everyone caught cheating, forever. At the moment the worst that happens is that you have to pay it back, or in other words you get a free go at fraud.

More difficult for those with sickness problems. As there is no sure way if discriminating those in need from those that aren't, you are going to get very different treatment depending on who judges you. This can range from healthy people getting benefits thanks to dishonest officials, through to benefits being denied to desperately sick people due to mistakes made by different officials. One thing is for sure, without some sort of reform the system will go bust and no one will get anything then.

Hmm.

This is probably where I get jumped on from a great height, but:

It's actually very difficult to get someone's benefit stopped. I don't know about fraud, but I only once made an effort to this regarding somebody who was actively avoiding work. What happens is they get emergency payments until the situation is 'resolved.' In theory, you can't leave people to starve.

The other aspect is with benefit cheats regarding working.

Don't stop anything. Just make them sign off and do the job they were doing when they got caught.

Again. You can tie yourself in knots 'punishing folk,' but all that happens is they bust a gut to get back on benefits to miminise the consequences.

Thing is, if they can work and are willing to work and have a job they are willing to do - just get them the working tax credit or whatever to make it worth their while and push them out the door!

One more off the unemployment figures!

You start to punish them and the buggers come back!

[longtomsilver]

I liked the way they were going on about that bloke's Bentley. It was ancient and ****. Probably worth £10k max but I wouldn't pay £2k for it.

I also liked when the council investigator give Bilton a look like he was a ****wit for suggesting a 'fake' passport looked real and then it turned out it was. Brilliant stuff.

More nonsense propaganda - when Mrs Posh saw the Bentley it made her blood boil, that is until I told her that there was £6-8k in that car max.

Same thing re. the reporting of that guy with the yacht (+ the other one the investigator got excited about in France) both can be more accurately described as boats rather than yachts - if you want to see the latter go down the marinas on the south coast. The valuation of the first was wildly optimistic too at ~£60k 'if done up' same drill if I installed gold taps in my bathroom and added diamond encrusted chandeliers to be sold with the house it'd probably go for £500k and not the £150k true value. All this being said they were clearly committing fraud and should be castigated for it.

[Flopsy]

The problem is that the public is only shown the bad blue badge users being questioned.

I'm a young person and I get hassled all the time for taking disabled seats in buses and using my blue badge as a passenger in a car. The hate attacks on disabled people have increased with all the extra publicity on "benefit scroungers". We are now seen as potential fakes unless we can somehow prove it.

People don't look before they shoot their mouths off now. I was tackled over my blue badge/disabled space parking by someone who didn't even look at me closely enough to see a walking stick. Same on the buses. I look normal so I must be normal. If they looked at me they would see aids like the walking stick but for some reason it becomes invisible on the young.

If members of the public are going to set themselves up as vigilantes then there needs to be some sort of basic training on how to recognise a disabled person. Even a basic what to look for (i.e. a walking stick sounds like an obvious giveway but seems to disappear in their eyes once they see I am young). My wheelchair seems to help stop the harrassment but only if I am sitting in it. Sometimes when my battery has given up and I am forced to use a manual chair with my body over the top to hang over it there is the assumption that I am the well but lazy "pusher" of a disabled person taking the chair somewhere.

It's very hard for me to get out anywhere and I'm finding the increased hostility hard and It's siphoning away the small strength I have.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Flopsy