Urban Farms

[Ruffneck]

My thoughts are that the unemployed would LOVE it but they would never want a job.

I watched a series last year about a project for people in rehab that was based on them working a farm, cooking, eating together ......they flourished , but not one wanted the project to end.

So much of what we do is meaningless, there is something about returning to the earth, about growing things , about feeling connected, people thrive.

Put them in a job in B&Q or Tesco's and they don't, its as simple as that.

you are saying they are disillusioned with the modern world?

cant blame them i suppose

[Stars]

We can use urban areas or land that farmers have made fallow under EC set aside laws (they should still get paid by the EC if the benefits people farm it).

So if people are on benefits then they need to work on urban farms for the good of the community.

Any comments?

...because landowners should always be compensated for other people being allowed to work.

[council dweller]

In the 17th century, with the Diggers.

weren't they suppressed by the then government?

[Guest sillybear2]

weren't they suppressed by the then government?

Yes, mainly roasted by their local lords of the manor. That's the problem with land owning and banking parasites, they always come back in a more virulent form unless you suceed in wiping them out completely as they did in France.

[doahh]

There is also a problem where, if you force people to work for dole then you can't really make them work more hours than they would get paid minimum wage for. So if the dole was £60 a week then you could ask them to work 12 hours a week for it. If you don't do that then the top bankers would find it more profitable to bankrupt the country and then get a free labor force thrown in to boot. This would be an ideal route to the beginnings of legal slavery and the marginalization of those who have done nothing wrong except to find themselves out of work.

Hmmm

Care to explain? I get the impression you either disagree or think that is what is going on already.

[council dweller]

That's OK for a lucky few. But there's not enough land for everyone to share your privileged lifestyle.

Very few make any attempt to grow a percentage of their own food even where they have a reasonable size garden.

What about you?

[Live Peasant]

Just give people land and let them do what they will.

With a 4 year waiting list for allotments locally, it seems people do want land, they just can't get at it.

Edited September 1, 2009 by linuxgeek

[porca misèria]

Very few make any attempt to grow a percentage of their own food even where they have a reasonable size garden.

What about you?

I want to. I'd like all-season food, from the winter root vegetables for a great soup, through a good selection of fruits, berries and nuts, to a few herbs to spice it up. Oops, did I forget to mention the legumes that are not only delicious but also serve to keep the soil healthy? Oh, and the girlfriend is an experienced and enthusiastic beekeeper.

But without land, I'm condemned - like many of us - to buy everything in the shops.

[DeepLurker]

That's OK for a lucky few. But there's not enough land for everyone to share your privileged lifestyle.

You don't need much land for a veg garden.

Estimates vary wildly, but I've heard that as little as 60m2 can feed a family of 4. So for starters, most of the family-sized homes in the 'burbs could be food-independent.

A little reminder from history: during WW2 this country reduced its food imports by half - and no one starved. The shortfall was grown within the towns and cities.

[porca misèria]

You don't need much land for a veg garden.

Estimates vary wildly, but I've heard that as little as 60m2 can feed a family of 4. So for starters, most of the family-sized homes in the 'burbs could be food-independent.

A little reminder from history: during WW2 this country reduced its food imports by half - and no one starved. The shortfall was grown within the towns and cities.

I expect 60m2 can keep them in enough of [some particular vegetable]. Subject to optimal soil, sun and rainfall, intensive fertiliser and weedkiller inputs, and the exclusion of any kind of wildlife.

For the real world view, I recommended reading Vilhelm Moberg, startiing with Utvandrarna. A gripping story of a peasant family with too little land to feed themselves (but a great deal more than 60 sq m), emigrating to the US to make a new life where there was sufficient land. All with level of material posessions that would make present-day Africa look rich!

Yes, it's just one story, in the same sense as Steinbeck's more famous Grapes of Wrath. But it tells of what we'd be back to without the likes of Tescos to supply our food.

[council dweller]

I want to. I'd like all-season food, from the winter root vegetables for a great soup, through a good selection of fruits, berries and nuts, to a few herbs to spice it up. Oops, did I forget to mention the legumes that are not only delicious but also serve to keep the soil healthy? Oh, and the girlfriend is an experienced and enthusiastic beekeeper.

But without land, I'm condemned - like many of us - to buy everything in the shops.

Up until 5 years ago the wife and I lived in a rented house in japan. We were lucky enough to have about 4 sqm. of garden and some concrete area (planters!) but even on this we managed to grow quite a bit and some things are still growing well, eg the fig tree and grape vine given to friends and in-laws. I think its good to show intention even in small ways.

I must admit, I find this gardening lark pretty easy, just read the seed packet, bung the seeds in and wait...and wait. In the case of potatoes, I realised that I had some space left over in late April so quickly bought Pentland Crown (supposed to be drought resistant) and just lifted put them in without any soil preparation. Where's the work!? Now I'm digging up potatoes that are 4 times the size of supermarket baking potatoes! Don't want to bore you further but believe me I could go on! (and on)

Anyway, I wish you luck finding a place.

(btw, I sometimes wonder if Sibley is right....hpc'ers all live in bedsits and earn 100k +)

[porca misèria]

Up until 5 years ago the wife and I lived in a rented house in japan. We were lucky enough to have about 4 sqm. of garden and some concrete area (planters!) but even on this we managed to grow quite a bit and some things are still growing well, eg the fig tree and grape vine given to friends and in-laws. I think its good to show intention even in small ways.

Good for you! I did once grow a plant: a chilli plant (yum) on a window sill. Can't even do that here

Anyway, I wish you luck finding a place.

I'd procrastinate. If only I could find the time ....

(btw, I sometimes wonder if Sibley is right....hpc'ers all live in bedsits and earn 100k +)

There's an element of that: I earn over 90k and live in a flat. Buying anywhere much more is not so easy once you're past a certain age and don't have many years of working life left to pay off a mortgage. So I'm concentrating on keeping it from the bloody chancellor for the time being, and looking to be rich enough to buy (but not necessarily in the UK) when I retire. And might just take an opportunity like this ex-council house if somesuch comes my way without a bidding war.

[council dweller]

I expect 60m2 can keep them in enough of [some particular vegetable]. Subject to optimal soil, sun and rainfall, intensive fertiliser and weedkiller inputs, and the exclusion of any kind of wildlife.

For the real world view, I recommended reading Vilhelm Moberg, startiing with Utvandrarna. A gripping story of a peasant family with too little land to feed themselves (but a great deal more than 60 sq m), emigrating to the US to make a new life where there was sufficient land. All with level of material posessions that would make present-day Africa look rich!

Yes, it's just one story, in the same sense as Steinbeck's more famous Grapes of Wrath. But it tells of what we'd be back to without the likes of Tescos to supply our food.

Now you're frightening me....

Maybe we should keep to the UK. My garden seems to getting more fertile by the year although I have dug some horse sh!t trenches just rotating stuff at random seems to be enough. Worms are fat and healthy.....I don't use any chemical fertiliser or weedkiller. Are you saying that my garden will turn into a mini dustbowl in a couple of years time and that wife, cat and I will be starving!?

Anyway, I thought the dust bowl was caused by 'modern' farming methods.

[porca misèria]

Now you're frightening me....

Maybe we should keep to the UK. My garden seems to getting more fertile by the year although I have dug some horse sh!t trenches just rotating stuff at random seems to be enough. Worms are fat and healthy.....I don't use any chemical fertiliser or weedkiller. Are you saying that my garden will turn into a mini dustbowl in a couple of years time and that wife, cat and I will be starving!?

Your story earlier in the thread was one of mixing supermarket food with stuff from the garden - which is what I would aspire to. Not full self-sufficiency: that's not realistic unless perhaps you're the super-rich.

And that's at peak harvest-season. How does that garden vs supermarket mix look in, say, March?

[DeepLurker]

I expect 60m2 can keep them in enough of [some particular vegetable]. Subject to optimal soil, sun and rainfall, intensive fertiliser and weedkiller inputs, and the exclusion of any kind of wildlife.

Oops, apologies. I forgot a very important detail: I was talking purely of a vegetable garden, and assuming that the rest (wheat, rice, corn, and all meats) would still be bought in.

And yes, working even 60m2 would be a lot of work. And it would be a very different diet to what Tescos can provide

And no, I haven't tried doing it myself

[Kurt Barlow]

Oops, apologies. I forgot a very important detail: I was talking purely of a vegetable garden, and assuming that the rest (wheat, rice, corn, and all meats) would still be bought in.

And yes, working even 60m2 would be a lot of work. And it would be a very different diet to what Tescos can provide

And no, I haven't tried doing it myself

The produvtion of fresh food locally is where the savings are to be had because these take so much energy and resources to pachakage, store and preserve.

In contrast cereals require little processing comparatively so are better suited to long haul transport.

[Kurt Barlow]

The entire point of the EC set-aside is that EC produced produce is overly expensive and too plentiful.

So, adding more produce to the EC's food mountains, with subsidised labour on not too-productive land (it's never the good fields that lie fallow...) who are unwilling workers that need more supervision and most likely also operate much slower... whilst at the same time undermining the professional farms commercially since they would stay in business no matter what, whilst the real farmers with everything to lose would have to compete against them, if not on quality, then on price.

The EC food mountains disappeared years ago - the Chinese and Indians bought it all

[council dweller]

Good for you! I did once grow a plant: a chilli plant (yum) on a window sill. Can't even do that here

There's an element of that: I earn over 90k and live in a flat. Buying anywhere much more is not so easy once you're past a certain age and don't have many years of working life left to pay off a mortgage. So I'm concentrating on keeping it from the bloody chancellor for the time being, and looking to be rich enough to buy (but not necessarily in the UK) when I retire. And might just take an opportunity like this ex-council house if somesuch comes my way without a bidding war.

Well, we once had a rental contract that said 'no fish' but your current 'no chilli plants' contract is taking things too far I think.

Yep, that house looks like a good deal, sounds like you should be able to buy outright before long.....this is how it should be, no money lenders required.

[Kurt Barlow]

If you have a Socialist government for long enough all people end up digging is mass graves.

These ideas are just more socialist fantasy land economics.

I believe Pol Pot thought it would be a good idea to march everyone into the countryside

And Mugabe has turned Zimbabwe into a nation of small holders, thus ensuring everyone will starve.

Yawn - I see you are spouting your usual old chestnuts.

No one is proposing to turn over commercial farm land for small holdings. This is about making better use of urban and suburban amenity and derelict land that cannot be farmed commercially but is viable for horticultural enterprises by the resident population.

[council dweller]

Your story earlier in the thread was one of mixing supermarket food with stuff from the garden - which is what I would aspire to. Not full self-sufficiency: that's not realistic unless perhaps you're the super-rich.

And that's at peak harvest-season. How does that garden vs supermarket mix look in, say, March?

Absolutely!

The comic 'situation' in the sitcom 'the Good Life' was Tom and Barbara trying to be self-sufficient using a suburban garden (plus the fact that he turned down well paid part-time work) Great comedy. Ridiculous.

Yeah, what we don't grow ourselves comes from Tesco. Milk, eggs, meat, fish and flour. In the summer we do a 'big shop' once every 2 months. (about 90 quid)

In March? Brocolli, garlic, Jerusalam artichokes (next year) and some salad vegetables only.

[RufflesTheGuineaPig]

The EC food mountains disappeared years ago - the Chinese and Indians bought it all

Correct. And I'm pretty sure set-aside has been scrapped as well.

Any spare land farmers was used to grow rape to be used sold for biodeisel.

[Kurt Barlow]

Correct. And I'm pretty sure set-aside has been scrapped as well.

Any spare land farmers was used to grow rape to be used sold for biodeisel.

I live in Cambridgeshire and virtually every scrap of land available was planted out with Cereals, rape, potatoes or sugar beet

[Kurt Barlow]

Your story earlier in the thread was one of mixing supermarket food with stuff from the garden - which is what I would aspire to. Not full self-sufficiency: that's not realistic unless perhaps you're the super-rich.

And that's at peak harvest-season. How does that garden vs supermarket mix look in, say, March?

Which is where 99% of us are.

I am eating a meal now that contains mince, onions, tomatoes, kale, peppers, courgettes. The only bought in ingrdients are the mince, a couple of stock cubes, salt and pepper.

For desert I am having grapes and apples from the garden

I eat like this from June to Nov each year and throughout the year I have some frozen veg to use

[council dweller]

Which is where 99% of us are.

I am eating a meal now that contains mince, onions, tomatoes, kale, peppers, courgettes. The only bought in ingrdients are the mince, a couple of stock cubes, salt and pepper.

For desert I am having grapes and apples from the garden

I eat like this from June to Nov each year and throughout the year I have some frozen veg to use

Maybe it's just a Cambridgeshire thing and the rest of the country is now a smoking wasteland!?

[Kurt Barlow]

Maybe it's just a Cambridgeshire thing and the rest of the country is now a smoking wasteland!?

Yeah - gods own County!