Portillo - Idle Young Should Be Entitled To Nothing

[ccc]

Yes I know plenty -not only my own and their friends but also the ones I get training at sea in my capacity as a shipmaster - 99% of them are tremendous .

So then you are aware they have a cruisy existence.....................

[Wires 74]

You really think most on benefits only get £60 per week ?!

No rent, no mortgage, disability etc..

Many of these jokers are getting away with, in real terms, hundreds and hundreds per week. Simply to spend on booze, fags and mobile phones.

I do love when you get a thread like this. You always get people saying 'it's not as cruisy as people think it is'.

Really ?! No not really.

Every person I see/know on benefits has a mobile phone, a place to stay, fags if they want it and booze. Some also go to the pics, have cars and go on the odd holiday.

These people are having a ball, and you are paying for it.

Do you always form your view of the world from the comment column of the Tory press - a few years ago when I got divorced I spent a few months living on what the same media would scathingly call a `sink estate` - trust me most people there were hard-working and living hand to mouth on minimum wage -sure they were a couple of familys working the system but most folk were struggling to get by. .

Edited August 31, 2009 by Wires 74

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

'Idle Young Should Be Entitled to nothing, so more public money can be spent on ME!'???

Yorkshire Forward, a development agency, hired Lanarkshire-born Ure, an anti-poverty campaigner and former lead singer of Ultravox, to hand out awards. The co-author of the Band Aid single Do They Know It's Christmas was one of three celebrities paid £73,000 in total. He shared the sum with political pundit Michael Portillo and business tycoon Sir Alan Sugar.

http://www.taxpayersalliance.com/media/200...elebrities.html

Edited August 31, 2009 by gruffydd

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

You really think most on benefits only get £60 per week ?!

No rent, no mortgage, disability etc..

Many of these jokers are getting away with, in real terms, hundreds and hundreds per week. Simply to spend on booze, fags and mobile phones.

I do love when you get a thread like this. You always get people saying 'it's not as cruisy as people think it is'.

Really ?! No not really.

Every person I see/know on benefits has a mobile phone, a place to stay, fags if they want it and booze. Some also go to the pics, have cars and go on the odd holiday.

These people are having a ball, and you are paying for it.

Most of the young people I know who aren't working are living at home with their parents and are not in disability - so yes, they only get around £60 quid a week. How do you get hundreds and hundreds on benefits if you're a young person on benefits? Say, as a young single bloke? Please explain.

Edited August 31, 2009 by gruffydd

[D.C.]

You really think most on benefits only get £60 per week ?!

No rent, no mortgage, disability etc..

Many of these jokers are getting away with, in real terms, hundreds and hundreds per week. Simply to spend on booze, fags and mobile phones.

I do love when you get a thread like this. You always get people saying 'it's not as cruisy as people think it is'.

Really ?! No not really.

Every person I see/know on benefits has a mobile phone, a place to stay, fags if they want it and booze. Some also go to the pics, have cars and go on the odd holiday.

These people are having a ball, and you are paying for it.

So a few pages ago I took you to task for this crap and now you are still spouting it?

Tell you what you go live on £64 a week and see how much of a ball it is.

[ccc]

Do you always form your view of the world from the comment column of the Tory press - a few years ago when I got divorced I spent a few months living on what the same media would scathingly call a `sink estate` - trust me most people there were hard-working and living hand to mouth on minimum wage -sure they were a couple of familys working the system but most folk were struggling to get by. .

No I form my views on reality.

So these people 'struggling to get by'

Did they have TV's ?

Did they have mobile phones ?

Did some of them have cars ?

Did some of them go on holiday ?

Did many of them smoke ?

Did they all afford to get drink when they wanted ?

The above are all rhetorical questions by the way...

They are not struggling to get by. Compared to many other places in the World they are living like veritable Royalty.

[ccc]

Most of the young people I know who aren't working are living at home with their parents and are not in disability - so yes, they only get around £60 quid a week. How do you get hundreds and hundreds on benefits if you're a young person on benefits? Say, as a young single bloke? Please explain.

Eh.. you get your housing paid for you which amounts to hundreds per week.

Next...

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

hundreds and hundreds a week?

If you're a youngster in private accomm, you get single room rate restriction. Probably around £130 quid a week - plus your 64 quid to LIVE on. Hundreds and hundreds? Huh? £78.58 housing benefit if you're single and under 25! Let the partt begin

http://www.harlow.gov.uk/about_the_council..._lha_rates.aspx

Edited August 31, 2009 by gruffydd

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2009/08/3...l-curve-murray/

[ccc]

So a few pages ago I took you to task for this crap and now you are still spouting it?

Tell you what you go live on £64 a week and see how much of a ball it is.

Do you have a roof over your head ?

Do you have food ?

Do you have water ?

Do you have a computer ?

Do you have internet access ?

Do you have luxury goods ?

Do you buy bevvy ?

Have you ever been to a place like India where people know REAL poverty ?

Dry your eyes and get a grip. It is rather embarrassing. You think you are hard done by when in fact you have it easy. Get over it.

[bogbrush]

Funny how peole twist subjects, personalise them as if attacking Portillo disproves his arguments.

Fact is that we work because we don't want to starve. If I got everything I wanted for no work I wouldn't work, that's just my attitude. I'd pursue my interests with 100% of my time.

The reality is that the higher the safety net the lower the incentives to work, that doesn't say that young people are idiots, or this is a bad generation or any of that stuff some people here want to pretend is being said, it's just a statement on rational behaviour.

If you want a more wealth-generating population then you have to drop the safety nets. Sorry, that's not me making up the rules it's just how it is with people.

[ccc]

hundreds and hundreds a week?

If you're a youngster in private accomm, you get single room rate restriction. Probably around £130 quid a week - plus your 64 quid to LIVE on. Hundreds and hundreds? Huh?

http://www.harlow.gov.uk/about_the_council..._lha_rates.aspx

Yeah that is about 2 hundred quid. Which equates quite perfectly to hundreds and hundreds. And that is for someone not claiming any other form of benefit. Plus they probably will get council tax rebates. So thanks for quite perfectly illustrating my point. Much appreciated.

Next...

[ccc]

Funny how peole twist subjects, personalise them as if attacking Portillo disproves his arguments.

Fact is that we work because we don't want to starve. If I got everything I wanted for no work I wouldn't work, that's just my attitude. I'd pursue my interests with 100% of my time.

The reality is that the higher the safety net the lower the incentives to work, that doesn't say that young people are idiots, or this is a bad generation or any of that stuff some people here want to pretend is being said, it's just a statement on rational behaviour.

If you want a more wealth-generating population then you have to drop the safety nets. Sorry, that's not me making up the rules it's just how it is with people.

Totally agree. Many young people of today do not HAVE to work. So they don't. Many on the dole do not HAVE work. So they don't.

It is very simple.

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

Yeah that is about 2 hundred quid. Which equates quite perfectly to hundreds and hundreds. And that is for someone not claiming any other form of benefit. Plus they probably will get council tax rebates. So thanks for quite perfectly illustrating my point. Much appreciated.

Next...

£78 per week HB if you're under 25 - and then you only have £64 to subsist on. Of course, millions of young people live at home with their parents. So only the £64 for them Not a lifestyle I'd choose.

Meanwhile, the banksters rake in their billions...

Edited August 31, 2009 by gruffydd

[HPC001]

On JSA you're asked to provide proof that you were looking for work on a weekly basis now, any signature out of place or a form unfilled and you get kicked off. After a set period of time you're put onto a placement with an employer, working for 3-4 days a week. Tell me, how is that something for nothing? I could be better off even in a part-time job paying minimum wage. It is only luxurious for people who work on the side illegally while claiming or have multiple children...

Did 2.5 million people suddenly decide that JSA is better than professional employment in the space of about a year? Or is it just maybe, maybe the jobs aren't there?

Edited August 31, 2009 by HPC001

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

On JSA you're asked to provide proof that you were looking for work on a weekly basis now, any signature out of place or a form unfilled and you get kicked off. After a set period of time you're put onto a placement with an employer, working for 3-4 days a week. Tell me, how is that something for nothing? I could be better off even in a part-time job paying minimum wage. It is only luxurious for people who work on the side illegally while claiming or have multiple children...

Did 2.5 million people suddenly decide that JSA is better than professional employment in the space of about a year? Or is it just maybe, maybe the jobs aren't there?

Repeat after me - they are all lazy spongers, they must be punished, they are all lazy spongers, they must be punished. Young people are undeserving, bankers are deserving, young people are undeserving, bankers are deserving.

Edited August 31, 2009 by gruffydd

[bogbrush]

Sorry guys, but I'm stuck. You can all speculate as long as you like about what you would or wouldn't do but please someone answer me this;

If there are loads of indiginous young people desperate for work, why is every restaurant full of East European girls & boys waiting table? Oh, and unless they're commuting from there they must be paying UK rents and buying UK food.

Just asking, that's all.

Edited August 31, 2009 by bogbrush

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

Sorry guys, but I'm stuck. You can all speculate as long as you like about what you would or wouldn't do but please someone answer me this;

If there are loads of indiginous young people desperate for work, why is every restraunt full of East European girls & boys waiting table? Oh, and unless they're commuting from there they must be paying UK rents and buying UK food.

Just asking, that's all.

Having loads of 'Easties' in my family - many are exploited horrifically. I know some who earn as little as 1.50 / hour on a farm (after their caravan costs have been deducted of course - farmer chose Ukranians coz couldn't find any suitable Poles). Many end up working illegally long hours as a result - 80-90 hour weeks. The nasty employers couldn't be more delighted. If that's the kind of society you want...

How about 6 men to a room, shift sleeping on the same beds? It's very efficient you know...

Edited August 31, 2009 by gruffydd

[bogbrush]

Having loads of 'Easties' in my family - many are exploited horrifically. I know some who earn as little as 1.50 / hour on a farm (after their caravan costs have been deducted of course - farmer chose Ukranians coz couldn't find any suitable Poles). Many end up working illegally long hours as a result - 80-90 hour weeks. The nasty employers couldn't be more delighted. If that's the kind of society you want...

How about 6 men to a room, shift sleeping on the same beds? It's very efficient you know...

Can't you stay on the subject? I'm talking about proper, decent jobs filled with East Europeans when there are apparantly loads of inidignous people clamouring for work. This happens. It is all around us. Can you explain that?

[Cogs]

Can't you stay on the subject? I'm talking about proper, decent jobs filled with East Europeans when there are apparantly loads of inidignous people clamouring for work. This happens. It is all around us. Can you explain that?

You seem a little naive about how the catering/hospitality trade works. There was an expose recently about how a hotel in Westminster (used by the foreign office amongst others) was treating its staff. Work 50 hours, get paid for 20, tell them they don't have any rights. 200-300 quid a night hotel, surely a "decent" place to work? Apparently not.

And either you don't understand how EU immigration works or you are pretending not to. Those people weren't shipped over at their employer's expense to fill empty posts, they turned up of their own accord. Are you suggesting that employers should engaged in illegal discrimination against Eastern European applicants?

You are demanding an explanation for a situation that doesn't warrant one.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Cogs

[HPC001]

If there are loads of indiginous young people desperate for work, why is every restaurant full of East European girls & boys waiting table? Oh, and unless they're commuting from there they must be paying UK rents and buying UK food.

Just asking, that's all.

Beats me BB, I can't even get into that line of work because they expect me to magically poof up a year's experience doing the same thing. Mystifies me as to why a couple of days training is so difficult to provide - probably not even that, its just common sense - give me the machine to pour the drinks from, maybe some point-of-sale explanation and thats it. Same goes with cleaning - we all clean our homes so whats going on here? Perhaps the Eastern Europeans are easily exploited? Not something I would like to encourage. I'm afraid not all employers behave as you do...

The problem is these poor people were doing the productive jobs while a good segment of the British public were kidding themselves that shuffling chairs and paper was a real job. Now that the bubble has burst, we're finding out the reality of globalisation.

On a low income, ie min wage, I'd still be entitled to claim top-up welfare on a sliding scale so there's no question that I'd be better off in a job. The fact is that plenty of low earners claim things like CTB and HB because their employers effectively aren't paying them a living wage.

Anyway, I won't be claiming your precious money soon enough...I get to see the merits of university education with fees

[bogbrush]

You seem a little naive about how the catering/hospitality trade works. There was an expose recently about how a hotel in Westminster (used by the foreign office amongst others) was treating its staff. Work 50 hours, get paid for 20, tell them they don't have any rights. 200-300 quid a night hotel, surely a "decent" place to work? Apparently not.

You in turn seem to want to join in with the denial of what's in front of you. Are you saying every restraunt is doing this? Come on, anyone can find a horror story somewhere, we're trying to understand what's happening all around us.

OK I'll give you an example of something I have 1st hand knowledge of. Factory job in my place, 36 hrs a week, light work (virtually no manual handling tasks other than light packing), easy environment, lowish pressure, mainly machine driven work just need some people to fill the gaps of technology. Used to have a nightmare getting staff until immigration started, now would need to ask them to form a queue. Pay exactly the same for immigrants, no dodgy dealing, no scams, just straight up same deals for task.

Interestingly, the immigrants have formed a massive proportion of the promotions in the last few years into better paid positions. They're just more on the ball, on the whole.

[Cogs]

You in turn seem to want to join in with the denial of what's in front of you. Are you saying every restraunt is doing this? Come on, anyone can find a horror story somewhere, we're trying to understand what's happening all around us.

OK I'll give you an example of something I have 1st hand knowledge of. Factory job in my place, 36 hrs a week, light work (virtually no manual handling tasks other than light packing), easy environment, lowish pressure, mainly machine driven work just need some people to fill the gaps of technology. Used to have a nightmare getting staff until immigration started, now would need to ask them to form a queue. Pay exactly the same for immigrants, no dodgy dealing, no scams, just straight up same deals for task.

Interestingly, the immigrants have formed a massive proportion of the promotions in the last few years into better paid positions. They're just more on the ball, on the whole.

Q. What sort of person travels to a wealthier (allegedly) foreign country looking for work?

You realise factory bosses in Warsaw have been saying exactly the same thing about Lithuanian immigrants. I wonder what factory owners in Lithuania do.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Cogs

[dhpcza]

Can't you stay on the subject? I'm talking about proper, decent jobs filled with East Europeans when there are apparantly loads of inidignous people clamouring for work. This happens. It is all around us. Can you explain that?

Yep. I think it goes like this.

Fairly clever/articulate/worldy Eastern European can come to Britain, get a middle of the road job and earn much more than the equivalent job pays in their home country. Scrimp and save, go home with savings and live well. Employers prefer these types of people than the equivalent Brit they can employ for the same money (this would be, average to poor wages).

The eastern european chavs (and they exist) will either stay where they are, come here and work for absolute peanuts and sleep 20 to a room (exaggerating) or commit crime over here as it's more lucrative and the punishments aren't as harsh.

Therefore, many lower class Brits are competing with the first type of Eastern European (ones that are clever but happy to do average jobs as the money is good FOR THEM) or chav eastern european (who can do a menial job for almost nothing). Naturally, employers look after their own interests.

Lower class Brits will then exploit a benefits system if they can, or scramble around for the minimum wage type jobs which many of us have done/do. Currently, if we are out of work, there are more people looking for these type of jobs than normal, making it harder to gain employment (despite what anybody's 16 yr old brother might have done recently). Employers look after their own interests and so do the poor/working class of this country.

[Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz]

Can't you stay on the subject? I'm talking about proper, decent jobs filled with East Europeans when there are apparantly loads of inidignous people clamouring for work. This happens. It is all around us. Can you explain that?

Well, explotation is large part of the story. I can tell you.

And you get increased competition between workers. Many of the E European workers I know are highly qualified and experienced yet willing to work for close on minimum wage (well below market rate) - displacing the young and inexperienced. I even know Czech hospital doctors who are working here and English hospital doctors who are without work. The agency work the Czechs are getting moves them to different hospitals every few weeks, often with virtually no notice. The English doctors will not work like that, and many are emigrating.

I know welders who earnt £10-11 an hour being displaced by highly skilled Portugese welders working for min wage plus free mobile home accommodation.

Edited August 31, 2009 by gruffydd