HPC001 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 OK I'll give you an example of something I have 1st hand knowledge of. Factory job in my place, 36 hrs a week, light work (virtually no manual handling tasks other than light packing), easy environment, lowish pressure, mainly machine driven work just need some people to fill the gaps of technology. Used to have a nightmare getting staff until immigration started, now would need to ask them to form a queue. Pay exactly the same for immigrants, no dodgy dealing, no scams, just straight up same deals for task.Interestingly, the immigrants have formed a massive proportion of the promotions in the last few years into better paid positions. They're just more on the ball, on the whole. Can't help you there, I'm in London and I don't have the £££ to go to Liverpool, then hope I get a job before my non-existent money runs out\rack up credit card debt in the process or become homeless if I don't succeed... aside from which, I've already committed to studying at a London university, so it makes zero sense to go trekking 200 miles for work when I need to be living here to attend the course. Here's an example: an agency going by the name of "Burton, Bolton & Rose" won't deal with me because I don't live within a 5 mile radius of their location. Why would the employers *not* be fussy when they have such a wide range of applicants, some inevitably more experienced and qualified than the young man that I am? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Q. What sort of person travels to a wealthier (allegedly) foreign country looking for work?You realise factory bosses in Warsaw have been saying exactly the same thing about Lithuanian immigrants. I wonder what factory owners in Lithuania do. The issue isn't them, it's the fact that the job was even vacant in the first place when so many people here are apparantly desperate for the work. Or perhaps they aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Q. What sort of person travels to a wealthier (allegedly) foreign country looking for work?You realise factory bosses in Warsaw have been saying exactly the same thing about Lithuanian immigrants. I wonder what factory owners in Lithuania do. And Ukranians and asians. Welcome to the race to the bottom... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Well, explotation is large part of the story. I can tell you. And you get increased competition between workers. Many of the E European workers I know are highly qualified and experienced yet willing to work for close on minimum wage (well below market rate) - displacing the young and inexperienced. I even know Czech hospital doctors who are working here and English hospital doctors who are without work. The agency work the Czechs are getting moves them to different hospitals every few weeks, often with virtually no notice. The English doctors will not work like that, and many are emigrating. I know welders who earnt £10-11 an hour being displaced by highly skilled Portugese welders working for min wage plus free mobile home accommodation. But I'm not talking about people working for below the rate. I'm on about jobs existing (as proven by presence of Czech girls taking my order in a restaurant) and "unemployed" indiginous persons. This isn't a comparison about skill levels, it's about the fact that the jobs are here which is why people travel thousands of miles to get them. My personal experience only confirms to me what I see all around. The underpaying thing you describe surely exists but I'm on about the subject the OP brought up. Are you suggesting the restraunt owner wouldn't have been happy to take on the English girl had she turned up and wanted it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 And Ukranians and asians. Welcome to the race to the bottom... Other than in illegal factories this is not true. There's a minimum wage you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cogs Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) Are you suggesting the restraunt owner wouldn't have been happy to take on the Czech girl if an English girl had turned up and wanted it? See? It goes round in circles. There doesn't have to be a shortage for people from Europe to apply for the job. You'd have a point if we were talking about Czech welders rocking up in Australia because thats the only way they'd get in. Edited August 31, 2009 by Cogs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Sorry guys, but I'm stuck. You can all speculate as long as you like about what you would or wouldn't do but please someone answer me this;If there are loads of indiginous young people desperate for work, why is every restaurant full of East European girls & boys waiting table? Oh, and unless they're commuting from there they must be paying UK rents and buying UK food. Just asking, that's all. Because their long term costs are significantly lower than a comparable uk citizen. They dont care if they live for 4-5 years 8 to a house if they can buy a home after that time back in their birth country. Their quality of life after those 5 years will be comparable to someone earning 20K+ in the uk. For the uk worker this doesnt apply, thus the economic migrant can accept wages lower than a uk citizen. As the employer gets to pick the cream of the east european labour force for a lower cost than an average uk person, its a nobrainer the choice they will make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) See?It goes round in circles. There doesn't have to be a shortage for people from Europe to apply for the job. You'd have a point if we were talking about Czech welders rocking up in Australia because thats the only way they'd get in. EDIT I didn't write that. It is incredibly rude to falsify a post. You should acknowledge it in your post if you do so, it's lying and misleading to anyone else reading who might think I wrote that. Back to the safety net line. I'm afraid we can't have safety nets and incentives, it's just not possible. Choices. Edited August 31, 2009 by bogbrush Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Other than in illegal factories this is not true. There's a minimum wage you know. A Race to the bottom in terms of incomes - the minimum wage being the botton. I should point out that deductions for accommodation, food, etc., enable employers to pay sub-minimum wage - the legislation is virtually impossible to police - and purposefully so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HPC001 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Actually I bizarrely mistyped! I was asking whether the restraunt owner would have been unhappy to take on the English girl had she wanted the job. Maybe it's just that everyone wants the jobs but the Czechs are more suited to work - better behaved, more presentable to customers and so on. My own experience has been that indiginous types are less interested than immigrants.Back to the safety net line. I'm afraid we can't have safety nets and incentives, it's just not possible. Choices. Ultimately though the employer can hire who they want, regardless of their merits. If they also refuse to provide feedback then how are people supposed to know what they did wrong in the interview? I refer you to my previous post which directly quoted you, would you like to respond bogbrush? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 But I'm not talking about people working for below the rate. I'm on about jobs existing (as proven by presence of Czech girls taking my order in a restaurant) and "unemployed" indiginous persons. This isn't a comparison about skill levels, it's about the fact that the jobs are here which is why people travel thousands of miles to get them.My personal experience only confirms to me what I see all around. The underpaying thing you describe surely exists but I'm on about the subject the OP brought up. Are you suggesting the restraunt owner wouldn't have been happy to take on the English girl had she turned up and wanted it? No they would not. As an employer you have the choice of taking the "creme" of the east european workforce at 6 GBP an hour or getting an average uk citizen, which do you choose? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Because their long term costs are significantly lower than a comparable uk citizen. They dont care if they live for 4-5 years 8 to a house if they can buy a home after that time back in their birth country. Their quality of life after those 5 years will be comparable to someone earning 20K+ in the uk. For the uk worker this doesnt apply, thus the economic migrant can accept wages lower than a uk citizen. As the employer gets to pick the cream of the east european labour force for a lower cost than an average uk person, its a nobrainer the choice they will make. So you're saying that the UK young person prices themselves out of a job because they won't share flats with friends? I think you're coming around to the idea that safety nets have created a low incentivised population which is being picked off by foreigners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Ultimately though the employer can hire who they want, regardless of their merits. If they also refuse to provide feedback then how are people supposed to know what they did wrong in the interview?I refer you to my previous post which directly quoted you, would you like to respond bogbrush? What interview? The point is that the indiginous population was less likely to apply in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) But I'm not talking about people working for below the rate. I'm on about jobs existing (as proven by presence of Czech girls taking my order in a restaurant) and "unemployed" indiginous persons. This isn't a comparison about skill levels, it's about the fact that the jobs are here which is why people travel thousands of miles to get them.My personal experience only confirms to me what I see all around. The underpaying thing you describe surely exists but I'm on about the subject the OP brought up. Are you suggesting the restraunt owner wouldn't have been happy to take on the English girl had she turned up and wanted it? Alot of this is about the difficulties people face when working in a sector plagued by falling wages - in the catering sector, for example, wages have been falling in real terms for years - well before the recession started. You can hardly claim that the minimum wage frees householders from bebenfits. In fact, poor wages encourage dependency on the state. Not sure why I should subsidise employers - I pay all my contractors well above minimum wage as a matter of principle. Edited August 31, 2009 by gruffydd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 No they would not.As an employer you have the choice of taking the "creme" of the east european workforce at 6 GBP an hour or getting an average uk citizen, which do you choose? "Cream"? FFS, we're talking about waiting tables. Are you joining the club who think UK youth are fat chavs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Alot of this is about the difficulties people face when working in a sector plagued by falling wages - in the catering sector, for example, wages have been falling in real terms for years - well before the recession started. You could hardly claim that the minimum wage offers reasonable support for a household that wishes to work without claiming benefits. In fact, poor wages, subsidised by the government, encourage benefits dependancy. Yet people are travelling thousands of miles to live in our costs and take those wages. Makes you wonder doesn't it...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Where is my pen? Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Exactly. 100 years ago it took, lets say, 10 farm hands to produce x amount of food. Today it only takes two men and a combine harvester, so much more productive. But the other 8 are now on benefits and still have to be sustained. So we as a society are no better off from this productivity. That is about the most cretinous thing I have ever read. Just a thought. Who made your cell phone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 What interview? The point is that the indiginous population was less likely to apply in the first place. Rather an assumption to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the wizard Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Sorry guys, but I'm stuck. You can all speculate as long as you like about what you would or wouldn't do but please someone answer me this;If there are loads of indiginous young people desperate for work, why is every restaurant full of East European girls & boys waiting table? Oh, and unless they're commuting from there they must be paying UK rents and buying UK food. Just asking, that's all. If there isn't an oversupply of workers, then why are there job interviews? Selection processes? Why have these things become more onerous over time? There are so few willing workers that they have to import workers, and yet they can afford to be choosy? Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BoomBoomCrash Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 You in turn seem to want to join in with the denial of what's in front of you. Are you saying every restraunt is doing this? Come on, anyone can find a horror story somewhere, we're trying to understand what's happening all around us.OK I'll give you an example of something I have 1st hand knowledge of. Factory job in my place, 36 hrs a week, light work (virtually no manual handling tasks other than light packing), easy environment, lowish pressure, mainly machine driven work just need some people to fill the gaps of technology. Used to have a nightmare getting staff until immigration started, now would need to ask them to form a queue. Pay exactly the same for immigrants, no dodgy dealing, no scams, just straight up same deals for task. Interestingly, the immigrants have formed a massive proportion of the promotions in the last few years into better paid positions. They're just more on the ball, on the whole. An immigrant coming here who has no ties to the UK can work for the miserly wages you pay as back home they are worth a lot. Many immigrants work here for a few years and save enough to buy a home outright, start a business and provide a nest egg back home. Thus whilst here they are prepared to suffer living in horrid cramped squalor. It's funny but there was a time when Irish workers were lauded for their 'can do' attitude and willingness to work very hard, indeed UK workers were chided for not sharing their work ethic. That was back when Irish labourers were dirt cheap, as their prices rose on the back of Ireland's economic development, they suddenly found themselves albelled work-shy buffoons. The same will happen to the foreign workers people like you are so enthusiastic about now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Rather an assumption to make. It's not an assumption, it's the lead option when you consider that for some reason there are millions of legitimate jobs in Britain being filled by immigrants that somehow the indiginous population can't fill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Posted August 31, 2009 Author Share Posted August 31, 2009 Yet people are travelling thousands of miles to live in our costs and take those wages. Makes you wonder doesn't it...... No it doesn't - not if you've ever been to Poland and other parts of E Europe. I just couldn't figure how a typical worker could make ends meet last time I was there - what, with rising housing and grocery costs, joke wages, etc. And a completely shoddy government that fails to understand that first thing about how to make a country competitive (investing in infrastructure, etc.) The interesting thing is that most of my cousins have gone back. More planning to leave before the end of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HPC001 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 What interview? The point is that the indiginous population was less likely to apply in the first place. I'm talking about myself, as I fit into the age and employment status bracket that Portillo was complaining about. To be honest I'd prefer less competition for the jobs. You still ignored the post where I discussed your factory though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexw Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 So you're saying that the UK young person prices themselves out of a job because they won't share flats with friends?I think you're coming around to the idea that safety nets have created a low incentivised population which is being picked off by foreigners. No because their long term costs mean they cannot work for that rate. You want to buy a house, start a family, how can you do that in the uk at 6 GBP an hour? On the other hand in eastern europe thats good money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogbrush Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I'm talking about myself, as I fit into the age and employment status bracket that Portillo was complaining about. To be honest I'd prefer less competition for the jobs.You still ignored the post where I discussed your factory though. I missed it. Remind me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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