Vaccines

[three pint princess]

25 people died

40 Million vaccinated

Seems fair to me, how many would die without a vaccine , 25?

[nevajism]

what arguments? I havnt given any ive just given a few links to films - which make reference to many scientific articles - you also havnt given any arguments youve just given a few links to wikipedia and a conference - so I guess this is argument by proxy -- but with all the money that the vaccine business has you would think that they would be able to fund the making of films to refute the claims made in the films I linked point by point (which were made on a very low budget) - or are they just hoping that nobody watches them and rely on calling anyone who questions vacines as a nutter or a fruit loop

i dont believe you are a scientist- more like the PR department of baxters.

You do not sound like you know what you are talking about, but if you do, then kindly send a pm to me. Your arguments sound as though you have never worked in science at all, but if you have then I suggest that would be a better method.

[Prime Realist 8]

You do not sound like you know what you are talking about, but if you do, then kindly send a pm to me. Your arguments sound as though you have never worked in science at all, but if you have then I suggest that would be a better method.

Wow, you must have amazing powers of perception to make that judgement based on a couple of sentences containing no scientific argument.

I realise I will not persuade most on this thread, as they are fruit loops.

Name calling. A demonstration of your superior intellect?

if you do, then kindly send a pm to me

What? We have to send a PM to the self appointed czar to prove our credentials?...or is it that you just want opposing viewpoints kept out of this thread?

[King Stromba]

The polio vaccine effectiveness has been suspected of some time of being exagerated by the timely banning of DDT. DDT produced neurological illnesses very similar to polio, and when DDT was banned the number of neurological cases fell. This just happened to coincide with widespread vaccination.

Many think the vaccine was ineffective and it was the banning of DDT that was the real reason for the apparent reduction in cases.

There is little doubt that good levels of clean housing, sanitation and improved nutrition brought about the decline of most deseases that are now rare. This is certainly likely for polio.

A good topic to research.

[Bob8]

what arguments? I havnt given any ive just given a few links to films - which make reference to many scientific articles - you also havnt given any arguments youve just given a few links to wikipedia and a conference - so I guess this is argument by proxy -- but with all the money that the vaccine business has you would think that they would be able to fund the making of films to refute the claims made in the films I linked point by point (which were made on a very low budget) - or are they just hoping that nobody watches them and rely on calling anyone who questions vacines as a nutter or a fruit loop

i dont believe you are a scientist- more like the PR department of baxters.

OK, I will go through the post;

"I used to believe in vaccines before I started reading up on them-"

As I work in teh industry, I have read up on them, I know many people who read up on them. To suggest that we have not read up is just silly. Sorry. It is like a creationsist arguning that I should read up on evolution, except there are more trialedled results for vaccines

" and before you ask I am well educated in science (phd and published papers) I dont want to ruin your career but I suggest you start studying the data with an open mind"

I have e-mailed a posted on this forum following a pm, so they have proof of my details and credentials, you have not done the same. To suggest I study the data with an open mind, mate, I do study the data and it is clear.

" -- look at what the anti vaccines people are saying it is well backed up with alot of published data. people used to trust the banks and financial wiz kids in the city because they were the "experts" -- that was a mistake too"

Again, this is a sentence that is written by someone who has been in a junior position their entire lives. Clearly, scientists are people and vulnerable. That is why proof, analysis and reasoned argument are essential. Ro say that vaccines do not work is like saying the crash did not happen, the reults are in. No-one is even coming up with anything in the last thirty years. The Mail et al caused a few deaths and disabilities my scaring people of MMR, that is the last vaccine scandal.

I make many errors when I type, however, you make errors of syntax which do not suggest you are highly educated. This is not an issue, but it makes me doubt you have a Phd. Sorry.

[Bob8]

The polio vaccine effectiveness has been suspected of some time of being exagerated by the timely banning of DDT. DDT produced neurological illnesses very similar to polio, and when DDT was banned the number of neurological cases fell. This just happened to coincide with widespread vaccination.

Many think the vaccine was ineffective and it was the banning of DDT that was the real reason for the apparent reduction in cases.

There is little doubt that good levels of clean housing, sanitation and improved nutrition brought about the decline of most deseases that are now rare. This is certainly likely for polio.

A good topic to research.

OK, I will research it......

Poliio existed before DDT and doesn't exist since the widespread use of the vaccine.

Hey, that did not take long!

[three pint princess]

OK, I will research it......

Poliio existed before DDT and doesn't exist since the widespread use of the vaccine.

Hey, that did not take long!

At some point, someone has to say it.

King Stromba is a troll.

[Bob8]

At some point, someone has to say it.

King Stromba is a troll.

I like fruit loop, but I think both are valid.

[King Stromba]

OK, I will research it......

Poliio existed before DDT and doesn't exist since the widespread use of the vaccine.

Hey, that did not take long!

Polio cases were falling because of better nutrition and sanitation. There was then a spike of cases around the same time that DDT was introduced. The vaccines was introduced and the number of cases fell. Vaccines were given credit for the reduction.

What many people actually think happened was that the spike in case was not polio, but the side effects of the DDT, the neurological implications mimicing polio almost exactly. The large fast reduction in 'polio' brought about by the vaccine was in fact the reduction in the cases of DDT poisoning concomitantly falling witht he banning of DDT.

The actual polio was in gradual decline all the time thanks to the better nutrition and better sanitation.

The data is on the net, maybe you should google it and not dismiss it.

http://www.vaclib.org/intro/present/pol_all.jpg

[Bob8]

Polio cases were falling because of better nutrition and sanitation. There was then a spike of cases around the same time that DDT was introduced. The vaccines was introduced and the number of cases fell. Vaccines were given credit for the reduction.

What many people actually think happened was that the spike in case was not polio, but the side effects of the DDT, the neurological implications mimicing polio almost exactly. The large fast reduction in 'polio' brought about by the vaccine was in fact the reduction in the cases of DDT poisoning concomitantly falling witht he banning of DDT.

The actual polio was in gradual decline all the time thanks to the better nutrition and better sanitation.

The data is on the net, maybe you should google it and not dismiss it.

http://www.vaclib.org/intro/present/pol_all.jpg

This many people, who exactly? Does it include you, or are you just warning me of the idiocy of others?

There is some evidence of a link between polio and insecticide, though this is a more valid refernce that the tosh you cite;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4290422...Pubmed_RVDocSum

(I cannot believe I actually having to help you).

However, there are hundreds of papers on the vaccine. The only ones saying that the trial results of polio are all made up (you know as well as I do that controls exist) are nutters like you.

Really, try pubmed.com. It is more reliable than conservapedia or entering "deranged fantasies" into Google.

Next week, 'How the Ford car Directly Eradicated Polio'.

[King Stromba]

This many people, who exactly? Does it include you, or are you just warning me of the idiocy of others?

There is some evidence of a link between polio and insecticide, though this is a more valid refernce that the tosh you cite;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4290422...Pubmed_RVDocSum

(I cannot believe I actually having to help you).

However, there are hundreds of papers on the vaccine. The only ones saying that the trial results of polio are all made up (you know as well as I do that controls exist) are nutters like you.

Really, try pubmed.com. It is more reliable than conservapedia or entering "deranged fantasies" into Google.

Next week, 'How the Ford car Directly Eradicated Polio'.

What exactly are your qualifications? You seem to like to 'tell' everyone about how great vaccination is.

And thanks i am aware of the various search engines for papers on the net. They were good until they became spammed out with 'marketing' research from your mates at the drug companies.

[Bob8]

What exactly are your qualifications? You seem to like to 'tell' everyone about how great vaccination is.

And thanks i am aware of the various search engines for papers on the net. They were good until they became spammed out with 'marketing' research from your mates at the drug companies.

Stick to academic journals then, and reports from the WHO. Even the FDA do reports where they balance effectivity against risk.

[King Stromba]

Stick to academic journals then, and reports from the WHO. Even the FDA do reports where they balance effectivity against risk.

Is this the same FDA that allowed aspartame on the market?

[Bob8]

Is this the same FDA that allowed aspartame on the market?

It is the medicines that save millions of lives every year.

Jeez, you must think that MSF are a team of terrorists.

[King Stromba]

So what are your qualifications. If you are giving medical advice on here i would like to know.

[General Melchett]

KS, you just illustrate your ignorance and intellectual limitations by the fact that you have not alluded to the REALLY odd, incomprehensible thing about the polio vaccine that makes even those in the know scratch their heads (and no, I'm not telling you what it is, partly because you obviously lack the intellectual capacity to put it into context). And incidentally, my qualifications include my PhD being examined by the UKs leading expert on the polio vaccine (not a drug comapny employee incidentally, an employee of the NIBSC) and working for 7 years in the same labs as people working on picornovirus vaccines. Care to share your qualifications? GCSE biology is it?

[King Stromba]

KS, you just illustrate your ignorance and intellectual limitations by the fact that you have not alluded to the REALLY odd, incomprehensible thing about the polio vaccine that makes even those in the know scratch their heads (and no, I'm not telling you what it is, partly because you obviously lack the intellectual capacity to put it into context). And incidentally, my qualifications include my PhD being examined by the UKs leading expert on the polio vaccine (not a drug comapny employee incidentally, an employee of the NIBSC) and working for 7 years in the same labs as people working on picornovirus vaccines. Care to share your qualifications? GCSE biology is it?

I find people who throw around their qualifications quite crass to be honest. If an argument is sound then it doesnt need a phd qualification to support it. I tend to find that those who have to qualify their statements with their educational background are poor communicators and have to rely on the pieces of paper to convince people they are right, rather than the argument itself.

I also tend to find that those that attack others for not conforming to their way of thinking are generally poor leaders. Good at talking orders and following others but unable to find their own path to solutions.

Richard Dawkins is a classic example. His entire career is based on some pigeon breeders ramblings from 150 years ago.

Did you ever question your phd supervisor? Or did you lap up everything he told you like a good little student?

[Rapid Descent]

Polio cases were falling because of better nutrition and sanitation. There was then a spike of cases around the same time that DDT was introduced. The vaccines was introduced and the number of cases fell. Vaccines were given credit for the reduction.

What many people actually think happened was that the spike in case was not polio, but the side effects of the DDT, the neurological implications mimicing polio almost exactly. The large fast reduction in 'polio' brought about by the vaccine was in fact the reduction in the cases of DDT poisoning concomitantly falling witht he banning of DDT.

The actual polio was in gradual decline all the time thanks to the better nutrition and better sanitation.

The data is on the net, maybe you should google it and not dismiss it.

http://www.vaclib.org/intro/present/pol_all.jpg

Wow, I've never seen such a pile of garbage in all my life.

Firstly, I checked the polio case statistics. According to your graph, there were near-zero cases before around 1984 (the supposed re-introduction of DDT - although, in fact, this was the first year of banning DDT in the UK). The WHO database shows that the cases, far from being zero, were actually higher prior to the supposed re-introduction of DDT. Whoever produced that graph is an absolutely idiot (and didn't label the y-axis... one of my pet hates... grrr)

The obvious failing here is that polio is caused by a virus, a known virus, which is detectable. DDT has no neurological effects in the concentrations used either for indoor residual spraying or in the quantities used in 1950s US agriculture. It has only been found in the very high concentrations DDT workers are exposed to; but even then, the mechanism is entirely different, and the virus would not be present.

There are other examples of BS on the chart; the insecticidal qualities of DDT were discovered in the late 30s, yet your polio graph rises before this. A simple distortion is included on the chart, that "DDT-like" chemicals were produced earlier. WTF? What are "DDT-like" chemicals, and when did they get banned?

It is quite clear from the patterns - that DDT was phased out at different times in different countries, and vaccines were introduced at different times in different countries - and the reduction of polio cases comes with the vaccine, NOT with the phasing out of DDT.

Bob8, you're not really helping him with that link - Gablik investigated the effect of organophosphates on polio, not DDT, so in fact any link between insecticide use and polio would be the opposite of what KS was claiming (since he suggests the replacement of DDT with organophosphates saved the world from polio )

[King Stromba]

Wow, I've never seen such a pile of garbage in all my life.

Firstly, I checked the polio case statistics. According to your graph, there were near-zero cases before around 1984 (the supposed re-introduction of DDT - although, in fact, this was the first year of banning DDT in the UK). The WHO database shows that the cases, far from being zero, were actually higher prior to the supposed re-introduction of DDT. Whoever produced that graph is an absolutely idiot (and didn't label the y-axis... one of my pet hates... grrr)

The obvious failing here is that polio is caused by a virus, a known virus, which is detectable. DDT has no neurological effects in the concentrations used either for indoor residual spraying or in the quantities used in 1950s US agriculture. It has only been found in the very high concentrations DDT workers are exposed to; but even then, the mechanism is entirely different, and the virus would not be present.

There are other examples of BS on the chart; the insecticidal qualities of DDT were discovered in the late 30s, yet your polio graph rises before this. A simple distortion is included on the chart, that "DDT-like" chemicals were produced earlier. WTF? What are "DDT-like" chemicals, and when did they get banned?

It is quite clear from the patterns - that DDT was phased out at different times in different countries, and vaccines were introduced at different times in different countries - and the reduction of polio cases comes with the vaccine, NOT with the phasing out of DDT.

Bob8, you're not really helping him with that link - Gablik investigated the effect of organophosphates on polio, not DDT, so in fact any link between insecticide use and polio would be the opposite of what KS was claiming (since he suggests the replacement of DDT with organophosphates saved the world from polio )

Go and get your jab then, its a free country i respect your entitlement to a useless medical treatment with some possible damaging annd fatal side effects. However, i will be giving them all a miss thanks, i am sure you respect my opinion not to have mercury injected into my body and will support any rights i have to refuse innoculation. Also if you could use your own money rather than tax payers money that would be greatly appreciated too. That way those that choose not to have injections are not paying for somthing they dont want.

I also recommend a large helping of DDT on all your meal as you claim it has no neurological effects at the concentrations used on food. I will give it a miss again though please. And as it is envoronmentally damaging and its my countryside too, can you please apply it in situ in your house so as not to effect those that want to protect the wildlife please.

Thanks in advance.

[Rapid Descent]

Go and get your jab then, its a free country i respect your entitlement to a useless medical treatment with some possible damaging annd fatal side effects.

You create a false dichotomy by suggesting the risk is all on one side. Taking the vaccine will improve your chances against a disease with some very damaging and fatal side effects.

However, i will be giving them all a miss thanks, i am sure you respect my opinion not to have mercury injected into my body and will support any rights i have to refuse innoculation.

Since we are not seeking universal herd immunity, there is no harm to me by your refusal to be vaccinated, so yes, your decision to do this makes no odds to me. However, when you inject such blatant and ignorant misinformation into the public realm as you did earlier, I am sure you respect my right to explain why the data you presented was such utter, utter dross.

Did you know oxygen is a known carcinogen that can react with many compounds present in the body, and is implicated in almost all of burn victims' injuries? Based on your logic, it would be best to prevent any oxygen getting into your body as well.

On a less serious note, do you use table salt?

Also if you could use your own money rather than tax payers money that would be greatly appreciated too. That way those that choose not to have injections are not paying for somthing they dont want.

Sure, as long as you are willing to pay for any treatment that you need after falling ill through not being vaccinated and not lean on my taxpayer money to do so.

I also recommend a large helping of DDT on all your meal as you claim it has no neurological effects at the concentrations used on food. I will give it a miss again though please. And as it is envoronmentally damaging and its my countryside too, can you please apply it in situ in your house so as not to effect those that want to protect the wildlife please.

Hilariously wrong. Firstly, the concentrations in food are small - the most common use for DDT today is in residual indoor spraying to combat malaria. The concentrations associated with this are far higher than any associated with food, and people are exposed to this level throughout the world without the ill effects you describe.

But hey, don't let that pesky evidence get in the way of a good scare story.

Thanks in advance.

You're welcome.

[fluffy666]

A poll has found that almost one in three nurses do not want the swine flu jab over fears about its safety and a perception that the flu is mild.

It was an online poll. Anyone could have answered it.

[nevajism]

on a related subject check out this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib

from the article:

"In the year before withdrawal, Merck had sales revenue of US$2.5 billion from Vioxx"

"On March 11, 2009, Scott S. Reuben, former chief of acute pain at Baystate Medical Center, Springfield, Mass., revealed that data for 21 studies he had authored for the efficacy of the drug (along with others such as celecoxib) had been fabricated in order to augment the analgesic effects of the drugs"

"FDA analysts estimated that Vioxx caused between 88,000 and 139,000 heart attacks, 30 to 40 percent of which were probably fatal, in the five years the drug was on the market"

interesting why this is not more mainstream news??

[Bob8]

on a related subject check out this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rofecoxib

from the article:

"In the year before withdrawal, Merck had sales revenue of US$2.5 billion from Vioxx"

"On March 11, 2009, Scott S. Reuben, former chief of acute pain at Baystate Medical Center, Springfield, Mass., revealed that data for 21 studies he had authored for the efficacy of the drug (along with others such as celecoxib) had been fabricated in order to augment the analgesic effects of the drugs"

"FDA analysts estimated that Vioxx caused between 88,000 and 139,000 heart attacks, 30 to 40 percent of which were probably fatal, in the five years the drug was on the market"

interesting why this is not more mainstream news??

That story is horrific.

Here is another wikipedia link;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flu_pandemic#...E2.80.931958.29

This thing will be closely monitored. It is possible that the efficacy of the drug will not be as high as hoped, however, there will not be new contents in the vaccine, indeed less preservative rather than more. The flu vaccine has a great safety record over the past thirty years and it is interesting you acually did not come up with anything in Wikipedia on vaccines.

There are three types of vaccine. In one, you have a killed bug (the flu vaccine is safer than this), in another you inject a modified of similar form of the virus (e.g. the small pox vaccine. The flu vaccine is far safer than this). In the third, you take a few proteins from the virus and show them to the immune system (rather like giving a piece of a mans clothing to a dog, to give it the scent) - this is the flu vaccine form.

[athe]

I make many errors when I type, however, you make errors of syntax which do not suggest you are highly educated. This is not an issue, but it makes me doubt you have a Phd. Sorry.

Chuckle. Having supervised a number of students during their PhDs, and thus having read their papers and thesii, I would humbly propose that the ability to write grammatically and syntactically correct English is not necessarily a useful measure of educational attainment in the Sciences.

[nevajism]

I have found wikipedia to be unreliable on medical issues, read this for one explanation:

http://www.whale.to/a/wikipedia.html