Altrincham/hale/halebarns

[Nomadd]

I happen to be a big fan of libraries! More as quiet places to work though than to borrow books. Although very good for some reference/academic books that cost a fortune otherwise.

I agree.

My point was more that the local community could easily afford to finance, build and operate a superb library - and several fantastic schools - from the cash mountain that has instead been squandered as "profit from property" over the last decade or so. It's a picture pretty much played out across the whole UK.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world just looks on and laughs at us as we continue down the same destructive path for our children.

[Venger]

My point was more that the local community could easily afford to finance, build and operate a superb library - and several fantastic schools - from the cash mountain that has instead been squandered as "profit from property" over the last decade or so. It's a picture pretty much played out across the whole UK.

Nothing against big libraries myself. Central Library (Mcr) seems to be having a lot of money spent on it.

Just with everything going in to support high house prices, the Hale library site might have a bit of tempting value for a Trafford council feeling a bit of the financial squeeze. Perhaps incorporating the library elsewhere, into smaller premises, and building a big apartment block on the library site, with underground parking.

Just picked this magazine up from Wilmslow. Nothing to shake the world but just thought I'd add the attachment, of the Hale feature.

Living Edge.

Cheshire lifestyle with an edge.

HALE

Use it don't lose it!

It's followed by a lot of adverts for local Hale businesses. Oops it's online as an easy read as well. pg 65. http://www.livingedge.co.uk/home

[Bemusedmover]

I agree.

My point was more that the local community could easily afford to finance, build and operate a superb library - and several fantastic schools - from the cash mountain that has instead been squandered as "profit from property" over the last decade or so. It's a picture pretty much played out across the whole UK.

Meanwhile, the rest of the world just looks on and laughs at us as we continue down the same destructive path for our children.

IMHO Hale is like Wilmslow - full of social climbers who are hocked up to the eyeballs, keeping there curtains closed because they have no furniture. Most houses are rented not owned.

..................the real money is in Hale Barns and Alderley Edge

[Venger]

IMHO Hale is like Wilmslow - full of social climbers who are hocked up to the eyeballs, keeping there curtains closed because they have no furniture. Most houses are rented not owned.

..................the real money is in Hale Barns and Alderley Edge

You've posted similar before, and I didn't know what to make of it. The real money? You mean more people who own homes that have also seen massive HPI, but less leverage? That's their wealth base? Or incomes as well.

Also, even if Alderley Edge or Hale Barns has more money, if Hale or Wilmslow has many owners heavily in debt, perhaps buyers of recent years leveraged to the hilt, if prices began to fall there, Alderley Edge and Hale Barns would surely be affected.

Even if Alderley Edge and Hale Barns has more solvent people, I'm not sure how it affects my choices. I'm not dependent upon selling anything to people in Alderley Edge or Hale Barns. Might be more fun to see people having debt meltdowns in Hale.

Perhaps you've just had good pay-on-time clients from both areas? I see dumb-debt people. They're everywhere. They don't know they're debt-dumb.

Wilmslow has always been full of "wannabes"

........to use an old phrase "all fur coats but no knickers"

I have had two businesses that traded in Wilmslow - and guess where all my bad debt came from??????????

Alderley Edge is where the real money is!!!!! - NOT wilmslow

[Bemusedmover]

You've posted similar before, and I didn't know what to make of it. The real money? You mean more people who own homes that have also seen massive HPI, but less leverage? That's their wealth base? Or incomes as well.

Also, even if Alderley Edge or Hale Barns has more money, if Hale or Wilmslow has many owners heavily in debt, perhaps buyers of recent years leveraged to the hilt, if prices began to fall there, Alderley Edge and Hale Barns would surely be affected.

Even if Alderley Edge and Hale Barns has more solvent people, I'm not sure how it affects my choices. I'm not dependent upon selling anything to people in Alderley Edge or Hale Barns. Might be more fun to see people having debt meltdowns in Hale.

Perhaps you've just had good pay-on-time clients from both areas? I see dumb-debt people. They're everywhere. They don't know they're debt-dumb.

Clearly you are a sensible "purchaser" I am aware you are a stalwart here. My post was not intended to upset. It was intended to affirm that in over 30 years of business my only bad debt came from these areas.

If you end up purchasing in either of these areas you will quickly find that unfortunately most of your neighbours will have had an overwhelming urge to move there despite the fact that they could not and still cannot afford it. Flashy cars come with the job, as does the rent/mortgage payment - the curtains however remain closed.

Alderley Edge is old money (on the whole) houses are inherited and capital is rarely spent. Hale Barns is similar but also includes lottery winners (some) but mainly footballers (a lot) and old money(less) (therefore see above)

People are "advised" what good areas these are - but mainly by estate agents

You can afford much better properties or much cheaper properties elsewhere - or you can be sucked in!

I am over 55 and have lived and traded close to these areas all my life - I am sorry but I stand by my comments

[Nomadd]

It's followed by a lot of adverts for local Hale businesses. Oops it's online as an easy read as well. pg 65. http://www.livingedge.co.uk/home

Well, 95% of that reads like it was written by a trainee EA of about 19 years of age. ...Or a seasoned Daily Mail journalist.

The remaining 5% seems to say "But...the town is now entering a spiral of decline such as that already witnessed in nearby Altrincham."

You see what happens Venger once you start posting everyone's bankruptcy proceedings!

[Venger]

Clearly you are a sensible "purchaser" I am aware you are a stalwart here. My post was not intended to upset. It was intended to affirm that in over 30 years of business my only bad debt came from these areas.

If you end up purchasing in either of these areas you will quickly find that unfortunately most of your neighbours will have had an overwhelming urge to move there despite the fact that they could not and still cannot afford it. Flashy cars come with the job, as does the rent/mortgage payment - the curtains however remain closed.

Hi BM. I believe the experiences you've had, and value the conclusions you make. It's what I suspect myself. Many in Hale and Wilmslow (and elsewhere) weighed down with heavy debt.

Not everyone, but for house prices to reach such heights, many younger owners in their 30s and 40s likely to be leveraged to the hilt.

There is also a likelihood of there having been significant mal-investment in the false-dawn reflation stage as well (2009-2013), with many older people, who should have been secure with little debt on homes they bought at low prices ages ago but now worth fortunes, not happy with low yields on savings and going into BTL, or ploughing their money into businesses which are contracting. Even Co-Op Bank fell into it, gobbling up Britannia, and trying to get the Lloyds branches.

I'm talking on a smaller scale, although quite a few examples I'm watching closely, where older people have thought they were taking advantage, when they were in a wonderful financial position but too greedy to be grateful for it, but ultimately have now made themselves vulnerable. So when the reflation tops out, expecting an ever heavier crash.

I won't be buying until many of these Hale/Wilmslow debtors meet the consequences of their debt, or altered income situations, and markets move downwards on the margin, from the over-indebted being forced to sell at lower prices. With a diminishing number of buyers. After the curtains are removed and the owners forced to sell at lower prices, not allowed to stay in the homes they can't afford to pay for any longer.

Well after the market shifts on the lending, or rather borrowing side, taking out those who were formerly attracted to jumbo debt, more nervous about their employment situations. When the path is clear for those with some savings, who have a much different view on what represents housing value, from what existing Hale/Wilmslow owners believe their homes are worth.

Edited July 7, 2013 by Venger

[Venger]

Well, 95% of that reads like it was written by a trainee EA of about 19 years of age. ...Or a seasoned Daily Mail journalist.

The remaining 5% seems to say "But...the town is now entering a spiral of decline such as that already witnessed in nearby Altrincham."

Yes hehe, a total fluffy piece, but that particular concern the most important tell of the article. Some concern people aren't spending what they used to. A call to get you to spend to save the economy.

Use it or lose it? No, just allow businesses who aren't getting the revenue they require to prosper or survive to fail. To be replaced by new businesses at lower rents and operating costs, probably run by younger people who aren't trying to service huge mortgages, and who are looking for house prices to fall. Who, afterwards, will service the demands of people who have bought, who have more money to spend on whatever they're selling. Rather than it all being sucked into a big mortgage now, or when interest rates go up.

[Bemusedmover]

Trouble is when and if these areas do crash, they will no longer be a desirable place to live in

Whereas more "sensible" areas - Cheadle Hulme Poynton Bramhall will continue to plod along quite happily (and much cheaper too)

[Nomadd]

Trouble is when and if these areas do crash, they will no longer be a desirable place to live in

Why? What would make them any less desirable as places to live if prices adjusted appropriately? Surely the exact opposite would be the case?

These areas would still have good schools, good train/tram links into Manchester, good connections to the motorway network for heading to Birmingham/London, good access to the airport for international commuters, etc., etc. Sure, they might be missing some local shops, but would that really impact most - certainly younger - people who move into the area in this Internet and everyone has a car day and age?

Look at the numerous threads we've had about the rundown Alty town centre over the years - and how that fact hasn't been reflected in lower house prices for the best roads in Alty.

I've known the better parts of Hale/Hale Barns/Knutsford/Alty areas since the 1970s, and they were still pretty desirable areas back then, 30 to 40 years ago. I can't see that changing should house prices decline by 20%-30% TBH.

[monks]

Trouble is when and if these areas do crash, they will no longer be a desirable place to live in

Whereas more "sensible" areas - Cheadle Hulme Poynton Bramhall will continue to plod along quite happily (and much cheaper too)

Garbage. These areas have never had the kudos of Hale - on top, there is huge investment coming in Alty / Hale Barns that will transform the commercial / leisure sectors and generate new business as a result. Once "The Square" at Hale Barns is complete, other (historically, rather bland) businesses on that parade will flourish. Equally, Altair, the new hospital, tram / bus station, Stamford House developments will see a new lease of life come to Altrincham.

Within the next 10 years, Altrincham / Hale will further extend their desirability over other "similar" Cheshire towns.

[Bemusedmover]

Garbage. These areas have never had the kudos of Hale - on top, there is huge investment coming in Alty / Hale Barns that will transform the commercial / leisure sectors and generate new business as a result. Once "The Square" at Hale Barns is complete, other (historically, rather bland) businesses on that parade will flourish. Equally, Altair, the new hospital, tram / bus station, Stamford House developments will see a new lease of life come to Altrincham.

Within the next 10 years, Altrincham / Hale will further extend their desirability over other "similar" Cheshire towns.

Really??????????

As an ex - retailer Altrincham is dead. Rents are ridiculous as are rates. Parking is an expensive lottery. Landlords, parking gestapo and council have finished it (recovery within 10 years is very optimistic)

But we were talking about Hale (and Wilmslow)

[monks]

Really??????????

As an ex - retailer Altrincham is dead. Rents are ridiculous as are rates. Parking is an expensive lottery. Landlords, parking gestapo and council have finished it (recovery within 10 years is very optimistic)

But we were talking about Hale (and Wilmslow)

Well, whoever is investing all their money in Altair doesn't agree with that view. Neither does the developer of Stamford House.

I'm also certain restaurants, shops and service outlets will benefit from patient and staffing at the hospital.

Yes, Alty has gone through an appallingly bad patch, but a lot of the failed businesses destroyed each other. Many factors point to the cycle turning the other way now.

[Venger]

Really??????????

As an ex - retailer Altrincham is dead. Rents are ridiculous as are rates. Parking is an expensive lottery. Landlords, parking gestapo and council have finished it (recovery within 10 years is very optimistic)

But we were talking about Hale (and Wilmslow)

+1 BM. Apart from the new homes, which are always welcome, the HB revamp is a gamble, imo. And more competition to existing shopping areas. We're not going to shop ourselves out of this and into a blaze of happy consumerist recovery. People are tapped out form their spending of the last few years, or feeling the consequence of their debt-load, and having changes in income circumstances.

Let the malinvestment continue though, and people hunt for 6% yield on bonds to prop up commercial property landlord interests under pressure, with rents set too high for market conditions being a drag on business. I doubt it will be Co-Op providing the funds for the HB. At least there will be fewer raids on the post-office, as it may not be there in the future. HB burglaries reported to be way up in a year. Yet some people only see boom instead of ever more deleveraging.

Adam Gross, a director of Citybranch, comments: "Most local residents shop outside Hale Barns and improved facilities in The Square may reduce the need for many residents to drive out of the area...

[Bemusedmover]

Well, whoever is investing all their money in Altair doesn't agree with that view. Neither does the developer of Stamford House.

I'm also certain restaurants, shops and service outlets will benefit from patient and staffing at the hospital.

Yes, Alty has gone through an appallingly bad patch, but a lot of the failed businesses destroyed each other. Many factors point to the cycle turning the other way now.

I thought this site was all about the un-sustainability of property prices...........

some of these arguments appear to applaud it

I for one would never invest in Altrincham High street unless I was called Mr Tesco - a lot of my business colleagues concur

[monks]

I thought this site was all about the un-sustainability of property prices...........

some of these arguments appear to applaud it

I for one would never invest in Altrincham High street unless I was called Mr Tesco - a lot of my business colleagues concur

Who praised unsustainable property prices? Certainly not me.

Many on this site are perpetual pessimists - I have given several examples of positive investment in the local area, but I suspect you would rather see the High St finally turned into a post-apocalyptic waste land. Perversely celebrating when Dilli closes its doors, shouting "I told you so" when Marks and Spencer decants, dancing a jig as Y McGregor pulls down the shutters for the last time.

Personally, I am quite excited about the future for Altrincham, so please don't try to garner support for your argument by cheaply accusing me of trolling.

[Bemusedmover]

Who praised unsustainable property prices? Certainly not me.

Many on this site are perpetual pessimists - I have given several examples of positive investment in the local area, but I suspect you would rather see the High St finally turned into a post-apocalyptic waste land. Perversely celebrating when Dilli closes its doors, shouting "I told you so" when Marks and Spencer decants, dancing a jig as Y McGregor pulls down the shutters for the last time.

Personally, I am quite excited about the future for Altrincham, so please don't try to garner support for your argument by cheaply accusing me of trolling.

Errrrrrrrr - having lost my income because of rent/rates/parking issues (never mind the net) I can assure you that most current shopkeepers would agree with my views...........

I cannot see how I accused you of trolling in any way shape or form.

Altrincham however deserves all the stick it gets.

Lets be quite clear here, I started commenting on "houses" not shops but if you insist we can carry on with shops.

Greed finished the shops in Altrincham. In my opinion it will be lucky not to end up like Whalley Range (which was "the" most desirable part of Greater Manchester in its day)

That is unless Landlords get real, rates are seriously lowered and all the parking restrictions are torn up. I have lived in/near Altrincham all my life. It used to be the only place I shopped now it is my last resort. I certainly would not dream of going out into Altrincham for a night out (not without a bodyguard anyhow)

Maybe we could carry this on in 10 years time (I believe that was your prediction)

[monks]

Errrrrrrrr - having lost my income because of rent/rates/parking issues (never mind the net) I can assure you that most current shopkeepers would agree with my views...........

I cannot see how I accused you of trolling in any way shape or form.

Altrincham however deserves all the stick it gets.

Lets be quite clear here, I started commenting on "houses" not shops but if you insist we can carry on with shops.

Greed finished the shops in Altrincham. In my opinion it will be lucky not to end up like Whalley Range (which was "the" most desirable part of Greater Manchester in its day)

That is unless Landlords get real, rates are seriously lowered and all the parking restrictions are torn up. I have lived in/near Altrincham all my life. It used to be the only place I shopped now it is my last resort. I certainly would not dream of going out into Altrincham for a night out (not without a bodyguard anyhow)

Maybe we could carry this on in 10 years time (I believe that was your prediction)

I'm not sure if this is a windup

[Venger]

I'm not sure if this is a windup

Seems well founded to me. One of my pals was a manager on temporary assignment to an Allsports in Altrincham. Pretty rum stuff going on during the boom, including chasing thieves out the store to try and recover stolen items. With all the cuts going through, going to get a lot of bad stuff coming through in conditions going forwards.

Rents too high, none of us buying expensive stuff for our houses, because house prices too high to buy, and so many 40+ year olds full of debt. I don't see the shopping recovery that you do. Just loads of over-supply everywhere.

Tesco even made the mistake of over-expanding at the wrong time in this malivestment era, with USA now going to cost them a big chunk of money, when they should have sit tight, and seen where their existing expansion had got them. Time for the malinvestors (inc BTLers) to begin paying soon, for a heavier HPC.

[monks]

Amazes me how many failed businesses put all the blame at the landlords / parking situation door. (I believe the main car park is 10p for an hour, 30p for 2 hours BTW, hardly breaking the bank for the average motorist)

Up and down that High St, nearly every third unit has been occupied by a pointless, copycat, "get rich quick" shyster. From the poorly researched and executed restaurants that change hands every 6 months on Oxford / Ashley Rd junction, through to the scally DJ bars, Willie Wonka's chocolate emporium near the market... THEY are just as much to blame as the landlords for devaluing Altrincham and dragging it into the gutter over the last few years.

Then there were the businesses that just failed to keep up with modern tastes and the arrival internet shopping - Jaeger, that weird "antique" shop, even Blockbuster came a cropper (not recognising that Lovefilm with no late penalties was clearly a more favourable choice).

[Nomadd]

Amazes me how many failed businesses put all the blame at the landlords / parking situation door. (I believe the main car park is 10p for an hour, 30p for 2 hours BTW, hardly breaking the bank for the average motorist)

Up and down that High St, nearly every third unit has been occupied by a pointless, copycat, "get rich quick" shyster. From the poorly researched and executed restaurants that change hands every 6 months on Oxford / Ashley Rd junction, through to the scally DJ bars, Willie Wonka's chocolate emporium near the market... THEY are just as much to blame as the landlords for devaluing Altrincham and dragging it into the gutter over the last few years.

Then there were the businesses that just failed to keep up with modern tastes and the arrival internet shopping - Jaeger, that weird "antique" shop, even Blockbuster came a cropper (not recognising that Lovefilm with no late penalties was clearly a more favourable choice).

All fair points. But...

The reality is that rents, business rates, energy costs, staffing costs, etc., etc. are truly horrific for small businesses these days. And the amount of red-tape and continual interference for HMRC is bewildering. And I'm saying all that as someone who has been running his own business for 25 years.

Just what kind of business could be introduced to Alty with all the associated costs and be made to thrive? I can't think of one. (And no, I don't think it needs more Poundstretchers. )

Does Alty need more pubs, bars, restaurants? Unlikely.

And then what of all the other things I've tripped into Alty for over the last 30 years on-and-off (but don't any more):

Books? Nope. Use Amazon these days as they are far cheaper and deliver to my door for free. And I've gone 99% ebook anyway.

Computer Games and Software? Nope. Use Amazon these days as they are far cheaper and deliver to my door for free. And more and more are going digital delivery anyway.

Magazines? Nope. All the ones I read are available digitally (and with extended content, video-format reviews, etc.)

Clothes? Just as easy to go to M/C central or the Trafford Centre for a far bigger selection.

Food shopping? Less hassle to go to a big supermarket with easy access and free parking (and can fill up with cheap petrol at the same time.)

In all honesty, you said it yourself with "Then there were the businesses that just failed to keep up with modern tastes and the arrival internet shopping..." Add in the rise of out-of-town supermarkets and shopping malls and that's it in a nutshell.

What things would you be honestly be prepared to pay more (potentially considerably more) for just to be able to grab them in Alty? As I say, I can't think of anything.

EDIT: And by the looks of the sales volume data, it seems that even opening an Estate Agent office might not be a sure-fire winner.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Nomadd

[Venger]

Just what kind of business could be introduced to Alty with all the associated costs and be made to thrive? I can't think of one. (And no, I don't think it needs more Poundstretchers. )

Does Alty need more pubs, bars, restaurants? Unlikely.

...In all honesty, you said it yourself with "Then there were the businesses that just failed to keep up with modern tastes and the arrival internet shopping..." Add in the rise of out-of-town supermarkets and shopping malls and that's it in a nutshell.

What things would you be honestly be prepared to pay more (potentially considerably more) for just to be able to grab them in Alty? As I say, I can't think of anything.

EDIT: And by the looks of the sales volume data, it seems that even opening an Estate Agent office might not be a sure-fire winner.

Very good points, and idea of turning the question around on monks.

The HB new precinct might have an advantage if exclusive stores. Maybe. When areas go into decline due to recession, or new challenger area (Trafford Centre) or alternative market providers (interest retailers), it partly affects even the higher-end stores, and bigger spending money is hard to lure back.

Edited July 8, 2013 by Venger

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Hale? Meh. I ignored that 'article' afer the first few words of media smoke-blowing. Other than a couple of eateries, there is very little in the village of appeal and my wife is put off by the snooty attitudes in some of the shops. Maybe the book shop closure has put the wind up them.

Altrincham on the other hand is great. Nominal parking charges and pleny of useful shops like Wilkos, Home Bargains and 2 pound shops! I'm not quite sure what others expect from their town centres, I'm only disappointed I don't get to go out there more often. I don't need to buy high end furniture or antiques or whatever magic beans rich peple spend their money on as I'm only a poor scummy renter loser. Depsite all the HNW individuals all you ever hear is that there's nothing good there. Its all very Field of Dreams, isn't it? Build it and they will come. How about these rich people start sharing the wealth and maybe when it can be seen there is a market, the business will develop to service it. That's not how business works, supposedly.

And the other thing is there's too much choice in so many things, bars, restaurants, cafes, places to go, things to do. I've been to places really enjoyed it and meant to go back but there's only so much time in the day. You end up spreading your resources so thinly its no wonder people struggle. Last few weeks, I've done half a dozen different things, repeat event or activity? No chance, too much choice.

I'm too lazy to go back and find it but sometime in 2010/11 I posted about a postage stamp sized plot of land on Queens Road, wedged between terraces on Cedar Road and Stamford Park Road. Well, the concrete garages have gone and it is being built on. The build will certainly be interesting. Also for the new build house at the top of Acacia Avenue. House looks like it'll be ok but it fills the plot it seems. Senses. Left.

And whats the story with Greenside Drive? Garden grab? One day I'm driving past and its all fenced off. Within weeks, there's a house.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

That's 2 OFF pound shops. Not £2 shops. Hyperinflation, eek.

[Bemusedmover]

All fair points. But...

The reality is that rents, business rates, energy costs, staffing costs, etc., etc. are truly horrific for small businesses these days. And the amount of red-tape and continual interference for HMRC is bewildering. And I'm saying all that as someone who has been running his own business for 25 years.

Just what kind of business could be introduced to Alty with all the associated costs and be made to thrive? I can't think of one. (And no, I don't think it needs more Poundstretchers. )

Does Alty need more pubs, bars, restaurants? Unlikely.

And then what of all the other things I've tripped into Alty for over the last 30 years on-and-off (but don't any more):

Books? Nope. Use Amazon these days as they are far cheaper and deliver to my door for free. And I've gone 99% ebook anyway.

Computer Games and Software? Nope. Use Amazon these days as they are far cheaper and deliver to my door for free. And more and more are going digital delivery anyway.

Magazines? Nope. All the ones I read are available digitally (and with extended content, video-format reviews, etc.)

Clothes? Just as easy to go to M/C central or the Trafford Centre for a far bigger selection.

Food shopping? Less hassle to go to a big supermarket with easy access and free parking (and can fill up with cheap petrol at the same time.)

In all honesty, you said it yourself with "Then there were the businesses that just failed to keep up with modern tastes and the arrival internet shopping..." Add in the rise of out-of-town supermarkets and shopping malls and that's it in a nutshell.

What things would you be honestly be prepared to pay more (potentially considerably more) for just to be able to grab them in Alty? As I say, I can't think of anything.

EDIT: And by the looks of the sales volume data, it seems that even opening an Estate Agent office might not be a sure-fire winner.

Abso bloody Well said that chap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

a lot of the 6 month only businesses disappear after the initial introductory free rent period.................

..........................because

..................they cant afford the rent (Oh and the rates,wages, etc)