Titanic Quarter Apartments Discussion Thread

[gazza982]

I live in a rented flat rather than a rented house because I just need to walk round the corner to get to the town centre, council tax and heating bills are cheaper, and I don't have to do any gardening.

My thinking exactly jonb.

I am in the same position, i think it is and will be an excellent development. I also agree that we try to get as large a number of purchasers together before we make any approach to the developer. I personally know a few people who have also bought in the development so can start spreading the word.

I just hope the developer is receptive to us and doesnt simply attempt to force completion upon us at the agreed prices.

Again, in order to retain my interest in the development i would still be willing to pay over the market value of the apartment and suffer the loss for a period of time. I dont imagine by any stretch that we will get a huge reduction or secure it under mkt value but i do think the more purchasers we can round up the more of a voice we will have. I imagine the developer would rather negotiate once and avoid the hassle of tooing and frooing to secure timely completions.

Have you any ideas if the development is currently on schedule etc or if it is running behind?

I look at the development quite reguarly and it appears that the first few cores are been concentrated on a lot more than the later ones which still do not seem to have the complete form work done to all floors.

I spotted a former school friend in the room when I was booking. I have also seen a neighbour up checking on the build a few times. I will approach them and see if they signed a contract.

I agree that a huge reduction probably isn't possible but hopefully they will offer something to help us with the lenders.

I think the Ulster Bank will want Harcourt to bring this in on time and get their capital back before the market falls further. As you stated the developer might help us to aid timely completions. I haven't any info regarding delays etc.

Anyone know when they will tell us to arrange our mortgages as the lending offers are only valid for 6 months?

[SSNomadic]

My thinking exactly jonb.

I spotted a former school friend in the room when I was booking. I have also seen a neighbour up checking on the build a few times. I will approach them and see if they signed a contract.

I agree that a huge reduction probably isn't possible but hopefully they will offer something to help us with the lenders.

I think the Ulster Bank will want Harcourt to bring this in on time and get their capital back before the market falls further. As you stated the developer might help us to aid timely completions. I haven't any info regarding delays etc.

Anyone know when they will tell us to arrange our mortgages as the lending offers are only valid for 6 months?

Excellent, i am firmly of the opinion that the more people we ge together on this the more receptive the developer will be. Again, a good point regarding the application for mortgages etc. I am going to my solicitor tomorrow to discuss the various options re this development, i.e whether it is likely that the developer could force completion at the agreed price and if not could they sue for the difference they eventually sell the flat for.

personally i think that the TQ development and the Arc still has huge potential and if the apartments can be renegotiated to a slightly more realisitc price then demand for the units will remain high.

i think that all people were told to expect completions around the end of 2009 but by looking at progress on the development it would seem harcourt are pushing on massively with the first few cores to get them completed.

would sort of reduction would you feel appropriate?

[md23040]

i am firmly of the opinion that the more people we ge together on this the more receptive the developer will be.

If the contract is water tight then IMO you have a very very very very very very slim chance of a reduction from this company. Have you read the contract through, otherwise without completion you may lose the deposit.

This company is extremely switched on and litigious when warranted. They are one of the largest development companies in Europe.

[SSNomadic]

If the contract is water tight then IMO you have a very very very very very very slim chance of a reduction from this company. Have you read the contract through, otherwise without completion you may lose the deposit.

This company is extremely switched on and litigious when warranted. They are one of the largest development companies in Europe.

Does anybody have any ideas on the likelyhood of sueing for specific performance of contract?. I imagine if 375 people are not going to complete on their apartments then Harcourt would have to be realistic and consider reducing prices. I imagine the ulster bank would have something to say if they decided to pursue a class action law suit poetntially for several years before they pay them back any money.

[talksalot81]

If the contract is water tight then IMO you have a very very very very very very slim chance of a reduction from this company. Have you read the contract through, otherwise without completion you may lose the deposit.

This company is extremely switched on and litigious when warranted. They are one of the largest development companies in Europe.

Ditto to that sentiment. Presumably the deposit amount was pretty small else people would not have paid it? Anything under £10k I would swallow and get out of these asap.... unless you can get the prices down by about 30%.

[SSNomadic]

Ditto to that sentiment. Presumably the deposit amount was pretty small else people would not have paid it? Anything under £10k I would swallow and get out of these asap.... unless you can get the prices down by about 30%.

The deposit that was paid was 10% of the purchase price. This was non-negotiable.

Personally i dont think the developers are going to accept a reduction of 30% of the purchase price but if for example the mkt value had decreased by 30% and they were offered to complete with a reduction of 25% then surely it would be in their interests to accept it rather than face a long road of litigation etc.

[gazza982]

Excellent, i am firmly of the opinion that the more people we ge together on this the more receptive the developer will be. Again, a good point regarding the application for mortgages etc. I am going to my solicitor tomorrow to discuss the various options re this development, i.e whether it is likely that the developer could force completion at the agreed price and if not could they sue for the difference they eventually sell the flat for.

personally i think that the TQ development and the Arc still has huge potential and if the apartments can be renegotiated to a slightly more realisitc price then demand for the units will remain high.

i think that all people were told to expect completions around the end of 2009 but by looking at progress on the development it would seem harcourt are pushing on massively with the first few cores to get them completed.

would sort of reduction would you feel appropriate?

When booking I was told completion would be the end of 2009 but more likely the middle of 2010.

I would hope for between 10% and 15%.

If the contract is water tight then IMO you have a very very very very very very slim chance of a reduction from this company. Have you read the contract through, otherwise without completion you may lose the deposit.

This company is extremely switched on and litigious when warranted. They are one of the largest development companies in Europe.

I would agree 100% and that's why we need big numbers. I'm convinced they need the majority of buyers to complete on time.

I'm also convinced that some BTL's will walk away from their deposit and hope they aren't pursued.

It would be better if they help us and make the development a success rather than take a ruthless approach.

We were never in this to make a profit but to live in a development that ticked a lot of boxes. I will do everything in my power to complete when instructed to do so. I checked with my bank at the time and it wasn't a problem but due to the timescale of this build and the change of conditions they may no longer accept the valuation. If they don't lend then I have no choice but to walk away and forfeit the deposit. It will be out of my control.

Bradford and Bingley negotiated a reduction on number of bundled mortgages they agreed to buy, it may work for us.

[talksalot81]

If you guys have 10% down and the contract is properly written - there is no long road. You either complete or you fail and forfeit the deposit. That is a lot of 'manoevering room' for the developers. The question is whether they think they can get a new buyer (albeit at reduced price) for each of those who would fail to make good on their signed contract. If so - you wont see a penny reduction. If not then they are much more likely to listen to offers. Of course there is middle ground too - some may complete at the agreed value which may subsidise the developer being able to reduce a 'broken contract' sufficiently that a new punter will come in...

Being honest, if the confidence in TQ being expressed here is typical - the developers will not give the slightest consideration to reducing the contract. They will take deposits and get a new set of people in....

[SSNomadic]

When booking I was told completion would be the end of 2009 but more likely the middle of 2010.

I would hope for between 10% and 15%.

I would agree 100% and that's why we need big numbers. I'm convinced they need the majority of buyers to complete on time.

I'm also convinced that some BTL's will walk away from their deposit and hope they aren't pursued.

It would be better if they help us and make the development a success rather than take a ruthless approach.

We were never in this to make a profit but to live in a development that ticked a lot of boxes. I will do everything in my power to complete when instructed to do so. I checked with my bank at the time and it wasn't a problem but due to the timescale of this build and the change of conditions they may no longer accept the valuation. If they don't lend then I have no choice but to walk away and forfeit the deposit. It will be out of my control.

Bradford and Bingley negotiated a reduction on number of bundled mortgages they agreed to buy, it may work for us.

Likewise, i think it is an excellent development and hope to live in the apartment one day.

As you say, i just hope harcourt are receptive to the current climate.

[gazza982]

If you guys have 10% down and the contract is properly written - there is no long road. You either complete or you fail and forfeit the deposit. That is a lot of 'manoevering room' for the developers. The question is whether they think they can get a new buyer (albeit at reduced price) for each of those who would fail to make good on their signed contract. If so - you wont see a penny reduction. If not then they are much more likely to listen to offers. Of course there is middle ground too - some may complete at the agreed value which may subsidise the developer being able to reduce a 'broken contract' sufficiently that a new punter will come in...

Being honest, if the confidence in TQ being expressed here is typical - the developers will not give the slightest consideration to reducing the contract. They will take deposits and get a new set of people in....

I have long term confidence. However if I wasn't locked in and apartments were 30% cheaper, I probably wouldn't touch them in the current climate.

Edited October 26, 2008 by gazza982

[talksalot81]

I have long term confidence. However if I wasn't locked in and apartments were 30% cheaper, I probably wouldn't touch them in the current climate.

That being the case for others then it will all depend upon quite what the difference in agreed and actual value is at the time of completion!

[trebor21]

I believe if you fail to complete then there is the distinct possibilty you will end up in court. Some large developers have a hell of a lot of cash, one development with people refusing to complete is unlikely to sink them.

Im not quite sure how you have a legal agreement without a mortgage offer. I know a few people and they had their mortgage agreement in place as part of the legal process.

[gazza982]

I believe if you fail to complete then there is the distinct possibility you will end up in court. Some large developers have a hell of a lot of cash, one development with people refusing to complete is unlikely to sink them.

I agree but taking that approach won't help the development or their cash flow as they have the Ulster bank to pay back. How quickly do you think it would take them to get say 50 new buyers if they reduce the price to £250,000 for a two bed apartment? They aren't going very well on Property news right now. I phoned up the Agent and was told that there wasn't supposed to be another release but employees decided not to take up their option and that is why they are back on the market.

With our deposits they will have a total of approx £285,000 after probably another 6 months marketing and exchanging new contracts. The original prices were £330,000 plus for two bed water front apartments. Then they may go to court and will probably win. If the original buyer doesn't have any other assets at that time what can they do but wait many years to recover the rest.

I’m not quite sure how you have a legal agreement without a mortgage offer. I know a few people and they had their mortgage agreement in place as part of the legal process.

I got an agreement in principal from the lender but the offer was only valid for 6 months. I can't see how any mortgage agreement would last for over 2 year’s even if it is only an agreement in principal.

[mmca22gr]

I have had a quick trawl through this thread. I am not a lawyer.

Stop pissing about. Go see a solicitor and tell them you need to get out of this contract.

Read the small print. If it is subject to finance or mortgage offer then you may have an out. If not you could walk away and let then chase you for the difference between what they eventually sell it for and what you were contracted to pay. for example, you contract to buy it for £350k but walk away and they keep your deposit of 10%. They sell it for £250k and come after you for the £100k.

The terms of the contract should be deemed 'fair', which is tough to argue. You could argue that they failed to perform by the completion date and you could claim something against that. Bet you they have a clause which deals with extension. they are very good at this sort of thing.

Bottom line is that you should get out of it if you can. For those who want to live there I would be very worried about DHSS punters ending up living in the block with you - paying for a falling asset which then gets a bad reputation. If you get out of the contract now then you can buy back in later if you really want to live there - at a cheaper price.

[SSNomadic]

I have had a quick trawl through this thread. I am not a lawyer.

Stop pissing about. Go see a solicitor and tell them you need to get out of this contract.

Read the small print. If it is subject to finance or mortgage offer then you may have an out. If not you could walk away and let then chase you for the difference between what they eventually sell it for and what you were contracted to pay. for example, you contract to buy it for £350k but walk away and they keep your deposit of 10%. They sell it for £250k and come after you for the £100k.

The terms of the contract should be deemed 'fair', which is tough to argue. You could argue that they failed to perform by the completion date and you could claim something against that. Bet you they have a clause which deals with extension. they are very good at this sort of thing.

Bottom line is that you should get out of it if you can. For those who want to live there I would be very worried about DHSS punters ending up living in the block with you - paying for a falling asset which then gets a bad reputation. If you get out of the contract now then you can buy back in later if you really want to live there - at a cheaper price.

All,

As mentioned i visited my solicitor today regarding the TQ apartments. In short the answer was, wait and see. There a large number of test cases now coming before the courts with developers trying to sue for specific performance of the contract and we will have to wait and see what approach the courts take.

The contracts are not subject to mortgage so seem quite well tied up. I am just hopeful that the developer acknowledges that he could have 350 people in the same position not wanting to complete and so it makes more sense to renegotiate with those already in place rather than attempting to sue people.

[shipbuilder]

All,

As mentioned i visited my solicitor today regarding the TQ apartments. In short the answer was, wait and see. There a large number of test cases now coming before the courts with developers trying to sue for specific performance of the contract and we will have to wait and see what approach the courts take.

The contracts are not subject to mortgage so seem quite well tied up. I am just hopeful that the developer acknowledges that he could have 350 people in the same position not wanting to complete and so it makes more sense to renegotiate with those already in place rather than attempting to sue people.

I have no idea about the legal ins and outs of this, or the history of similar scenarios, But if I was a developer, having witnessed other recent attempts at 'solidarity' (such as water charge opposition) in today's super-individualistic society and given that the people 'investing' in the TQ would be more likely in the 'look after no.1' end of the spectrum (no offence to those posting on here - I did say 'investing'), I would be pretty confident that after suing, in a very public way, the first couple of people attempting a breach of contract, that the rest of the buyers would run scared.

[gazza982]

All,

As mentioned i visited my solicitor today regarding the TQ apartments. In short the answer was, wait and see. There a large number of test cases now coming before the courts with developers trying to sue for specific performance of the contract and we will have to wait and see what approach the courts take.

The contracts are not subject to mortgage so seem quite well tied up. I am just hopeful that the developer acknowledges that he could have 350 people in the same position not wanting to complete and so it makes more sense to renegotiate with those already in place rather than attempting to sue people.

Thanks for the update.

[mmca22gr]

All,

As mentioned i visited my solicitor today regarding the TQ apartments. In short the answer was, wait and see. There a large number of test cases now coming before the courts with developers trying to sue for specific performance of the contract and we will have to wait and see what approach the courts take.

The contracts are not subject to mortgage so seem quite well tied up. I am just hopeful that the developer acknowledges that he could have 350 people in the same position not wanting to complete and so it makes more sense to renegotiate with those already in place rather than attempting to sue people.

If contracts are not subject to finance then you need to pay up. But on the flip side of the contract they have to build you an apartment. You entered into a contract for someone to provide you with an apartment to a certain spec, within a certain timeframe. If you fail to come up with the money they can sell at the best price they can get and go after you for the difference. If they fail to deliver on the quality of finish etc then you can get someone else to do it right and go after them for the difference (which is why you always hold back some payment). If they fail to deliver on time then you could arguably rent somewhere else and go after them for the costs. The argument then becomes at which stage does the contract become unfair. You have only had to put up 10% which is in your favour. If you build your own house then the builder will want 50% when you get to roofline etc. At which point does the delay in completion become unfair/unreasonable? 3 months? 6 months? 2 years?

At any rate they rarely make the complete contract 'null and void'

http://www.compactlaw.co.uk/free_legal_inf...w/consumf5.html

"20. Allowing the company / business to impose undue financial burdens." This one could be interesting ;-)

[SSNomadic]

I have no idea about the legal ins and outs of this, or the history of similar scenarios, But if I was a developer, having witnessed other recent attempts at 'solidarity' (such as water charge opposition) in today's super-individualistic society and given that the people 'investing' in the TQ would be more likely in the 'look after no.1' end of the spectrum (no offence to those posting on here - I did say 'investing'), I would be pretty confident that after suing, in a very public way, the first couple of people attempting a breach of contract, that the rest of the buyers would run scared.

hmm personally i think if the developer could take a 10-15% hit on the apartments and still secure 375 completions he would accept this and move on rather than have people in and out of the courts in what is hoped to be a showcase development for the TQ.

Just my opinion though. Hope they agree!

[shipbuilder]

hmm personally i think if the developer could take a 10-15% hit on the apartments and still secure 375 completions he would accept this and move on rather than have people in and out of the courts in what is hoped to be a showcase development for the TQ.

Just my opinion though. Hope they agree!

I would hope so too - I just wouldn't rely on purchasers sticking together to get the developer to change their mind.

You're right about the showcase development angle, although (and maybe it's just me being cynical) that could go a couple of ways too. The developer may think that its important for public image that the 'showcase development' retains its 'premium' asking price?

[SSNomadic]

I would hope so too - I just wouldn't rely on purchasers sticking together to get the developer to change their mind.

You're right about the showcase development angle, although (and maybe it's just me being cynical) that could go a couple of ways too. The developer may think that its important for public image that the 'showcase development' retains its 'premium' asking price?

To be honest i agree with you, i do think its a showcase development but think that in the current climate the developer is going to have to be prepared to accept a reduction to get people to complete. I would be happy to pay a little over the market price for the place just to secure my involvement with the development. I think in the long term it is going to be a fantastic development etc.

The way i rationalise it is, that say for example the flat was bought for £300k with £30k down but is now only worth £250k. If the developer was offered the £250k plus say £15k of the original deposit paid surely that would be a lot less hassle than going down the court route and sueing people? The alternative is that he sells it to somebody else for £250k and goes after me for the £50k. Hopefully it would be more appealing to just accept a reduction and move on.

Sure he is £35k down but by the time he considers marketing fees and legal costs etc it might be as well to just take the hit?

Any opinions?

[talksalot81]

I am just hopeful that the developer acknowledges that he could have 350 people in the same position not wanting to complete and so it makes more sense to renegotiate with those already in place rather than attempting to sue people.

Or he could have 350 people all lying because they dont want to pay what they agreed to.... If we are talking about BTLers then they can reasonably be expected to have other assets so they would have a lot of room to 'lever' people.

[Malthus]

I have no idea about the legal ins and outs of this, or the history of similar scenarios, But if I was a developer, having witnessed other recent attempts at 'solidarity' (such as water charge opposition) in today's super-individualistic society and given that the people 'investing' in the TQ would be more likely in the 'look after no.1' end of the spectrum (no offence to those posting on here - I did say 'investing'), I would be pretty confident that after suing, in a very public way, the first couple of people attempting a breach of contract, that the rest of the buyers would run scared.

it would appear the developer has a very active legal team

http://www.thisisjersey.com/2008/06/13/har...her-court-case/

so far mainly in defence work

[dieselfreak]

To be honest i agree with you, i do think its a showcase development but think that in the current climate the developer is going to have to be prepared to accept a reduction to get people to complete. I would be happy to pay a little over the market price for the place just to secure my involvement with the development. I think in the long term it is going to be a fantastic development etc.

The way i rationalise it is, that say for example the flat was bought for £300k with £30k down but is now only worth £250k. If the developer was offered the £250k plus say £15k of the original deposit paid surely that would be a lot less hassle than going down the court route and sueing people? The alternative is that he sells it to somebody else for £250k and goes after me for the £50k. Hopefully it would be more appealing to just accept a reduction and move on.

Sure he is £35k down but by the time he considers marketing fees and legal costs etc it might be as well to just take the hit?

Any opinions?

MB1.. i've tried to formulate this reply a few times, and each time it re-read too sarcastic, so i will apologise in advance.

To whom are you hoping that the developer will sell a flat to for a quater of a million pounds.

my own feeling is that you must hope, that you can put as much distance between you and this as is possible.

I wish you no ill, please get out of the deal by any means possible and quickly.

35k 50k bla bla bla.... this is about 5 years take home pay for the average person.

this kind of thinking is what caused the problems we are in.

This myth you have bought into about these flats is just that.

[Ulidia]

If we are talking about BTLers then they can reasonably be expected to have other assets so they would have a lot of room to 'lever' people.

I'd be interested to know if thats the case with this development i.e. anyone who put down a 10% deposit with the anticipation that the remainder would be funded via BTL mortgage will likely be required to produce considerably more cash to complete the deal.

For example, if the apartment's contract price was £300k but valued at £225k on completion and a lender will lend up to, say, 75% LTV, then the customer is looking at paying out an additional £101k cash (in addition to the original 10%) + costs simply to complete the deal. I wouldn't be too surprised if some of the buyers are highly leveraged and/or in potential negative equity situations since many of the more experienced BTL-ers knew the game was up a year or more ago and sold out of their portfolios.

For this reason alone, I'd find it impossible to predict how things will work themselves out in this type of scenario since:

a) I'm of the opinion that some buyers would be unable to complete even if the developer reduced prices by, say, 15% across the board;

b ) Given the cost and timescales of court action, and likelihood of being unable to recover the sales price from many defaulting buyers, whether it would be in the interests of the developers to pursue such a strategy.

I guess that the ultimate end game will depend largely on the property market, lending environment and economy as the project nears completion.

Genuinely, hope it works out well for all the buyers on this forum.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Ulidia