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So there is no actual correct measure of national/regional house prices, perhaps we could start our own.
Land Registry Admits Fiddling Figures
Repossessions are Excluded.
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#1
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 08:51 AM
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#2
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:31 AM
Linky
That's alright then.
Quote
The Government's official house price index, produced by the Land Registry, has been accused of misleading homebuyers and policymakers after it emerged that it excludes repossessions and auctions on the grounds that they do not reflect the 'full market value' of the sale.
In the past the gap between the figures has been attributed to time-lag differences. But concern is growing that the Land Registry figures, regarded as the 'gold standard' of house price data and used by the Bank of England in setting interest rates, may be fundamentally flawed, as repossessions are ignored.
More than 45,000 repossessions are expected this year - around 6 per cent of all property sales - and several economists have forecast lenders taking the keys back on as many as 100,000 homes in 2009. The previous record was set in 1991 when the number of repossessions topped 75,000.
A spokeswoman for the Land Registry said: 'Repossessions are excluded as they are "commercial" sales and do not represent full market value.
In the past the gap between the figures has been attributed to time-lag differences. But concern is growing that the Land Registry figures, regarded as the 'gold standard' of house price data and used by the Bank of England in setting interest rates, may be fundamentally flawed, as repossessions are ignored.
More than 45,000 repossessions are expected this year - around 6 per cent of all property sales - and several economists have forecast lenders taking the keys back on as many as 100,000 homes in 2009. The previous record was set in 1991 when the number of repossessions topped 75,000.
A spokeswoman for the Land Registry said: 'Repossessions are excluded as they are "commercial" sales and do not represent full market value.
That's alright then.
#3
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:33 AM
Not the full value! So banks are selling houses for much less than they are worth, right.
#4
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:36 AM
MODERATORS
Oops, someone got there first. can you merges this thread.
Oops, someone got there first. can you merges this thread.
#5
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:37 AM
"A spokeswoman for the Land Registry said: 'Repossessions are excluded as they are "commercial" sales and do not represent full market value."
Unbelievable. 
Criminal. 
This country is seriously f*cked.
Unbelievable. Criminal. This country is seriously f*cked.
What the media today are still not telling us in full - for some reason the lid is being kept on the whole story:
HERE IN THE UK: THE UK SUB-PRIME CATASTROPHE - IT IS NOT ONLY IN AMERICA!! THE UK LIAR LOAN INDUSTRY - Source of FICTITIOUS "MONEY", and the principle driver of the House "Price" Pyramid/Ponzi Scam & Bubble, the "Credit Crunch" - and an unacknowledged major part of and cause of the ensuing Worldwide Financial Crash.
---------------------
The following was reported in a superb documentary in late 2003 - This is now nearly 7 years ago! Since then little has been done here in the UK to dig down deep on this vast elephant in the room: Why? If you're a serious journalist - here's your story - start investigating - it is the biggest financial scandal of all time:
Mortgage customers 'urged to lie' - All this was way back in 2003 by the way!!
Housebuyers are being encouraged to break the law in order to obtain huge mortgages, the BBC has discovered. Brokers, and even banking staff, have been telling buyers to lie about their incomes to get bigger and bigger loans. And these underhand tactics could also be the reason why house prices have gone on rising for so long.
CLICK HERE - http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/3222053.stm
"Could you believe that a bank would invite customers to defraud it? It may sound incredible, but that is what some of Britain's biggest mortgage lenders have in effect been doing."
CLICK HERE - http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/3478635.stm
The BBC Money Programme uncovers massive mortgage fraud [2003!]: BBC TWO's The Money Programme has revealed a huge mortgage fraud with brokers from some of Britain's biggest estate agents and financial advice groups advising customers to break the law and lie about their incomes to get massively bigger mortgages. And it shows how the illicit cash raised by this method has been pouring into the housing market, boosting prices and leaving many people risking financial ruin.
CLICK HERE http://www.bbc.co.uk..._mortgage.shtml
-----------------------------
WATCH THE VIDEO OF THE 2003/4 DOCUMENTARY HERE: - http://video.google....67675&hl=en-GB#
Apologies - the video breaks up 3/4 of the way through - but stick it out - You will get the message overall!
------------------------------
AND WATCH THE LATEST VIDEO OF LIAR LOANS STILL IN ACTION HERE in 2008 - http://news.sky.com/.../20080641317257
HERE IN THE UK: THE UK SUB-PRIME CATASTROPHE - IT IS NOT ONLY IN AMERICA!! THE UK LIAR LOAN INDUSTRY - Source of FICTITIOUS "MONEY", and the principle driver of the House "Price" Pyramid/Ponzi Scam & Bubble, the "Credit Crunch" - and an unacknowledged major part of and cause of the ensuing Worldwide Financial Crash.
---------------------
The following was reported in a superb documentary in late 2003 - This is now nearly 7 years ago! Since then little has been done here in the UK to dig down deep on this vast elephant in the room: Why? If you're a serious journalist - here's your story - start investigating - it is the biggest financial scandal of all time:
Mortgage customers 'urged to lie' - All this was way back in 2003 by the way!!
Housebuyers are being encouraged to break the law in order to obtain huge mortgages, the BBC has discovered. Brokers, and even banking staff, have been telling buyers to lie about their incomes to get bigger and bigger loans. And these underhand tactics could also be the reason why house prices have gone on rising for so long.
CLICK HERE - http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/3222053.stm
"Could you believe that a bank would invite customers to defraud it? It may sound incredible, but that is what some of Britain's biggest mortgage lenders have in effect been doing."
CLICK HERE - http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/3478635.stm
The BBC Money Programme uncovers massive mortgage fraud [2003!]: BBC TWO's The Money Programme has revealed a huge mortgage fraud with brokers from some of Britain's biggest estate agents and financial advice groups advising customers to break the law and lie about their incomes to get massively bigger mortgages. And it shows how the illicit cash raised by this method has been pouring into the housing market, boosting prices and leaving many people risking financial ruin.
CLICK HERE http://www.bbc.co.uk..._mortgage.shtml
-----------------------------
WATCH THE VIDEO OF THE 2003/4 DOCUMENTARY HERE: - http://video.google....67675&hl=en-GB#
Apologies - the video breaks up 3/4 of the way through - but stick it out - You will get the message overall!
------------------------------
AND WATCH THE LATEST VIDEO OF LIAR LOANS STILL IN ACTION HERE in 2008 - http://news.sky.com/.../20080641317257
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:48 AM
cht, on Nov 30 2008, 11:31 AM, said:
"...on the grounds that they do not represent the full market value..." ???????
If this is true, it's an absolute scandal.
What these sales represent is precisely the market value of the properties.
It amounts to deliberate falsification of the figures - no surprise there, then.
Who will have instructed the LR to do this?
No doubt Caroline Flint would deny all knowledge.
This post has been edited by Mrs Bear: 30 November 2008 - 11:52 AM
#7
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:50 AM
Mrs Bear, on Nov 30 2008, 11:48 AM, said:
"...on the grounds that they do not represent the full market value..." ???????
If this is true, it's an absolute scandal.
What these sales represent is precisely the market value of the properties.
It amounts to deliberately falsification of the figures - no surprise there, then.
If this is true, it's an absolute scandal.
What these sales represent is precisely the market value of the properties.
It amounts to deliberately falsification of the figures - no surprise there, then.
It's the same thing as "off-balance sheet" stuff -- that has been part and parcel of the Lies and Fraud of the last 10+ years --- i.e. Enron onwards....
What the media today are still not telling us in full - for some reason the lid is being kept on the whole story:
HERE IN THE UK: THE UK SUB-PRIME CATASTROPHE - IT IS NOT ONLY IN AMERICA!! THE UK LIAR LOAN INDUSTRY - Source of FICTITIOUS "MONEY", and the principle driver of the House "Price" Pyramid/Ponzi Scam & Bubble, the "Credit Crunch" - and an unacknowledged major part of and cause of the ensuing Worldwide Financial Crash.
---------------------
The following was reported in a superb documentary in late 2003 - This is now nearly 7 years ago! Since then little has been done here in the UK to dig down deep on this vast elephant in the room: Why? If you're a serious journalist - here's your story - start investigating - it is the biggest financial scandal of all time:
Mortgage customers 'urged to lie' - All this was way back in 2003 by the way!!
Housebuyers are being encouraged to break the law in order to obtain huge mortgages, the BBC has discovered. Brokers, and even banking staff, have been telling buyers to lie about their incomes to get bigger and bigger loans. And these underhand tactics could also be the reason why house prices have gone on rising for so long.
CLICK HERE - http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/3222053.stm
"Could you believe that a bank would invite customers to defraud it? It may sound incredible, but that is what some of Britain's biggest mortgage lenders have in effect been doing."
CLICK HERE - http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/3478635.stm
The BBC Money Programme uncovers massive mortgage fraud [2003!]: BBC TWO's The Money Programme has revealed a huge mortgage fraud with brokers from some of Britain's biggest estate agents and financial advice groups advising customers to break the law and lie about their incomes to get massively bigger mortgages. And it shows how the illicit cash raised by this method has been pouring into the housing market, boosting prices and leaving many people risking financial ruin.
CLICK HERE http://www.bbc.co.uk..._mortgage.shtml
-----------------------------
WATCH THE VIDEO OF THE 2003/4 DOCUMENTARY HERE: - http://video.google....67675&hl=en-GB#
Apologies - the video breaks up 3/4 of the way through - but stick it out - You will get the message overall!
------------------------------
AND WATCH THE LATEST VIDEO OF LIAR LOANS STILL IN ACTION HERE in 2008 - http://news.sky.com/.../20080641317257
HERE IN THE UK: THE UK SUB-PRIME CATASTROPHE - IT IS NOT ONLY IN AMERICA!! THE UK LIAR LOAN INDUSTRY - Source of FICTITIOUS "MONEY", and the principle driver of the House "Price" Pyramid/Ponzi Scam & Bubble, the "Credit Crunch" - and an unacknowledged major part of and cause of the ensuing Worldwide Financial Crash.
---------------------
The following was reported in a superb documentary in late 2003 - This is now nearly 7 years ago! Since then little has been done here in the UK to dig down deep on this vast elephant in the room: Why? If you're a serious journalist - here's your story - start investigating - it is the biggest financial scandal of all time:
Mortgage customers 'urged to lie' - All this was way back in 2003 by the way!!
Housebuyers are being encouraged to break the law in order to obtain huge mortgages, the BBC has discovered. Brokers, and even banking staff, have been telling buyers to lie about their incomes to get bigger and bigger loans. And these underhand tactics could also be the reason why house prices have gone on rising for so long.
CLICK HERE - http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/3222053.stm
"Could you believe that a bank would invite customers to defraud it? It may sound incredible, but that is what some of Britain's biggest mortgage lenders have in effect been doing."
CLICK HERE - http://news.bbc.co.u...ess/3478635.stm
The BBC Money Programme uncovers massive mortgage fraud [2003!]: BBC TWO's The Money Programme has revealed a huge mortgage fraud with brokers from some of Britain's biggest estate agents and financial advice groups advising customers to break the law and lie about their incomes to get massively bigger mortgages. And it shows how the illicit cash raised by this method has been pouring into the housing market, boosting prices and leaving many people risking financial ruin.
CLICK HERE http://www.bbc.co.uk..._mortgage.shtml
-----------------------------
WATCH THE VIDEO OF THE 2003/4 DOCUMENTARY HERE: - http://video.google....67675&hl=en-GB#
Apologies - the video breaks up 3/4 of the way through - but stick it out - You will get the message overall!
------------------------------
AND WATCH THE LATEST VIDEO OF LIAR LOANS STILL IN ACTION HERE in 2008 - http://news.sky.com/.../20080641317257
#8
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:51 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if this was retracted. I think someone at the Guardian may have misunderstood something that has been said.
EDIT: Certainly they would not regard an auction sale as commerical.
EDIT: Certainly they would not regard an auction sale as commerical.
This post has been edited by Driver: 30 November 2008 - 11:52 AM
#9
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:55 AM
Repossessions are excluded as they are "commercial" sales and do not represent full market value
Market value is the phighest price the market will put on the sale, if the sale takes place at auction then the highest price is accepted and hence sets the market value. I swear to god if a labour MP ever shows up on my doorstep I cannot be held responsible for my actions.
Market value is the phighest price the market will put on the sale, if the sale takes place at auction then the highest price is accepted and hence sets the market value. I swear to god if a labour MP ever shows up on my doorstep I cannot be held responsible for my actions.
As I wandered in the darkness a voice came unto me, it said "smile, be happy, things could get worse". So I smiled and was happy and behold, things did get worse.
"Credit is indeed vital to an economy, but it does not constitute an economy within itself. ... When businesses borrow to fund capital investments, the extra cash flows that result are used to repay the loans. When individuals borrow to spend, loans can only be repaid out of reduced future consumption."-Peter Schiff, Jan 19 2009; <a href="http://www.321gold.com/editorials/schiff/schiff011909.html" My link
"The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it."-Andrew Jackson on the Second Bank of the United States
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."-Margaret Thatcher
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad." - James Madison
"Credit is indeed vital to an economy, but it does not constitute an economy within itself. ... When businesses borrow to fund capital investments, the extra cash flows that result are used to repay the loans. When individuals borrow to spend, loans can only be repaid out of reduced future consumption."-Peter Schiff, Jan 19 2009; <a href="http://www.321gold.com/editorials/schiff/schiff011909.html" My link
"The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it."-Andrew Jackson on the Second Bank of the United States
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."-Margaret Thatcher
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad." - James Madison
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:56 AM
Mrs Bear, on Nov 30 2008, 11:48 AM, said:
"...on the grounds that they do not represent the full market value..." ???????
If this is true, it's an absolute scandal.
What these sales represent is precisely the market value of the properties.
It amounts to deliberately falsification of the figures - no surprise there, then.
If this is true, it's an absolute scandal.
What these sales represent is precisely the market value of the properties.
It amounts to deliberately falsification of the figures - no surprise there, then.
This is an absolute disgrace.
I agree with the sentiment that sales that are actually taking place represent fair market value irrespective of the reason that the sales are taking place.
We should not be surprised that our government and the regulatory regime that they have installed are complicit in trying to hide the truth from the public.
This is similar to the recent accouting rule changes which allow banks to classify weak assets as "available for sale" which lets them stop taking mark to market (and hence income) hits on the assets as prices drop.
The fact that our government and their oversight regime are trying to hide facts from us raises my confidence in a prediction of a house price crash more severe than many of us could have reasonably expected even 3 months ago.
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:58 AM
eric pebble, on Nov 30 2008, 11:50 AM, said:
It's the same thing as "off-balance sheet" stuff -- that has been part and parcel of the Lies and Fraud of the last 10+ years --- i.e. Enron onwards....
You beat me to it. I need to learn to type faster.
When our own government starts to act like Enron (and encourages our banks to do the same), we are in very deep trouble.
#12
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 12:03 PM
I think the banks have been potentially stuffed here as well, consider if a bank uses thier automated valuation for magage purposes then the data supplied by the land registry/government is flawed and an overvaluation results would they not have a case for legal action in respect of misleading information for which they have paid resulting in losses. If that were the case would we again as tax payers endup taking another hit in the ensuing legal action against HMG
As I wandered in the darkness a voice came unto me, it said "smile, be happy, things could get worse". So I smiled and was happy and behold, things did get worse.
"Credit is indeed vital to an economy, but it does not constitute an economy within itself. ... When businesses borrow to fund capital investments, the extra cash flows that result are used to repay the loans. When individuals borrow to spend, loans can only be repaid out of reduced future consumption."-Peter Schiff, Jan 19 2009; <a href="http://www.321gold.com/editorials/schiff/schiff011909.html" My link
"The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it."-Andrew Jackson on the Second Bank of the United States
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."-Margaret Thatcher
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad." - James Madison
"Credit is indeed vital to an economy, but it does not constitute an economy within itself. ... When businesses borrow to fund capital investments, the extra cash flows that result are used to repay the loans. When individuals borrow to spend, loans can only be repaid out of reduced future consumption."-Peter Schiff, Jan 19 2009; <a href="http://www.321gold.com/editorials/schiff/schiff011909.html" My link
"The bold effort the present bank had made to control the government... are but premonitions of the fate that await the American people should they be deluded into a perpetuation of this institution or the establishment of another like it."-Andrew Jackson on the Second Bank of the United States
"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."-Margaret Thatcher
"If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad." - James Madison
#13
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 12:07 PM
I've just read this story in the paper and I'm shocked.
This mad idea that houses are sold below 'market value' has even seeped into the Land Registry! Surely, they know that when a mortgagee in possession sells a property they have to ensure that they get the best price that can be achieved at the time. IT IS THE MARKET PRICE. Otherwise, mortgagors would be suing the banks wholesale for not achieving the highest offer.
I can't believe it.
p
This mad idea that houses are sold below 'market value' has even seeped into the Land Registry! Surely, they know that when a mortgagee in possession sells a property they have to ensure that they get the best price that can be achieved at the time. IT IS THE MARKET PRICE. Otherwise, mortgagors would be suing the banks wholesale for not achieving the highest offer.
I can't believe it.
p
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 12:08 PM
Look guys, I think this is going to turn out to be a mistake. I have invited HM Land Registry to clarify what The Guardian has said and we should see some form of rebuttal soon.
EDIT:Couldn't spell Guardian
EDIT:Couldn't spell Guardian
This post has been edited by Driver: 30 November 2008 - 12:16 PM
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Posted 30 November 2008 - 12:10 PM
patprimer74, on Nov 30 2008, 12:07 PM, said:
I've just read this story in the paper and I'm shocked.
This mad idea that houses are sold below 'market value' has even seeped into the Land Registry! Surely, they know that when a mortgagee in possession sells a property they have to ensure that they get the best price that can be achieved at the time. IT IS THE MARKET PRICE. Otherwise, mortgagors would be suing the banks wholesale for not achieving the highest offer.
I can't believe it.
p
This mad idea that houses are sold below 'market value' has even seeped into the Land Registry! Surely, they know that when a mortgagee in possession sells a property they have to ensure that they get the best price that can be achieved at the time. IT IS THE MARKET PRICE. Otherwise, mortgagors would be suing the banks wholesale for not achieving the highest offer.
I can't believe it.
p
If the sentiment on this site as to your "real" identity is anywhere near accurate, you are one of the few people here who is in a position to actually help redress this shameful manipulation.