Morocco-some Hidden Information

[catara]

Did you know that:

- under Moroccan law you will need to pay 10% VAT on the interest rates. For 5% interest rate the total is 5% +10% VAT so you will be paying 0.50% VAT to the Moroccan Government until your mortgage has been paid out. Of course .5% is not too much, but it add up to about 60 Euro/month (i.e. almost £50/month) for a 25 year mortgage.

- the service of the loan is in foreign exchange because under Moroccan law you cannot pay Dirhams. That means exchanging all the rental money in foreighn currency and then back in Dirhams.

- the rent will attract VAT of 10%. Of course this goes against what the property sites were claiming and lying.

- the VAT was increased from 14% to 20%. This is quite a big increase. Combined with the 14% decrease of £/Euro, the price for British people has increased by 20% without any real value appreciation

The new finance ministed decided this recently. Is he trying to sabotage the Plan Azure 2010? Or the Plan Azure 2010 stuff was just a magnet to trap some foreign investors?

Edited January 11, 2008 by catara

[DianaM]

Did you know that:

- under Moroccan law you will need to pay 10% VAT on the interest rates. For 5% interest rate the total is 5% +10% VAT so you will be paying 0.50% VAT to the Moroccan Government until your mortgage has been paid out. Of course .5% is not too much, but it add up to about 60 Euro/month (i.e. almost £50/month) for a 25 year mortgage.

- the service of the loan is in foreign exchange because under Moroccan law you cannot pay Dirhams. That means exchanging all the rental money in foreighn currency and then back in Dirhams.

- the rent will attract VAT of 10%. Of course this goes against what the property sites were claiming and lying.

- the VAT was increased from 14% to 20%. This is quite a big increase. Combined with the 14% decrease of £/Euro, the price for British people has increased by 20% without any real value appreciation

The new finance ministed decided this recently. Is he trying to sabotage the Plan Azure 2010? Or the Plan Azure 2010 stuff was just a magnet to trap some foreign investors?

True, a better place for exotic destinations property investment is Dubai I think.

Have you knowledge on Brasil?

[catara]

Have you knowledge on Brasil?

I have some knowledge on Brazil. What do you want to know?

[DianaM]

I have some knowledge on Brazil. What do you want to know?

I saw the counrty is developing rapidly and it's high investment potential there. Am wondering if the place offers the stability many consultants claim. I am not looking for off-plan properties there as I find them rather expensive and I can't trust the rental returns they offer. I have very little trust in off-plans anywhere in the world, I may be wrong, but it's the way I feel from some experiences.

Am wondering if you have any knowledge on the fiscality in Brasil, for example what happens when you resell, also what is the real rental return you can expect.

And last but not least, outside Rio the infractionality is just as high or is it mostly a scarecrow for the foreign eyes.

[Moroccolandinvest]

I saw the counrty is developing rapidly and it's high investment potential there. Am wondering if the place offers the stability many consultants claim. I am not looking for off-plan properties there as I find them rather expensive and I can't trust the rental returns they offer. I have very little trust in off-plans anywhere in the world, I may be wrong, but it's the way I feel from some experiences.

Am wondering if you have any knowledge on the fiscality in Brasil, for example what happens when you resell, also what is the real rental return you can expect.

And last but not least, outside Rio the infractionality is just as high or is it mostly a scarecrow for the foreign eyes.

As an investor in Morocco you need to know how to buy and how to invest in property in any country, and the main thing in property market is to make the comparaison yourself not to trust the off plan marketing or a kind advertising like i can smell here

I have some questions to ask.

Why all the spanish, French, Brits, peopele even from Dubai...are investing in Morocco?

Because they know what you don't know about property business opportunities in Morocco.

In any property investment you have to pay tax...

Foreign buyers can buy property in Morocco with less then £30 000 and can resell it with £60 000.

I am not advertising off plan investment at all. I advice people to buy land for development in Morocco. Buy other property not off plan...and wait...you will see many buyers will come to you asking if you want to sell your land or your property with a very good price.

Do not forget that the king of Morocco is removing all the obstacles for investors in Morocco.

Off plan investment is not all property investment...make good research yourself.

[catara]

As an investor in Morocco you need to know how to buy and how to invest in property in any country, and the main thing in property market is to make the comparaison yourself not to trust the off plan marketing or a kind advertising like i can smell here

I have some questions to ask.

Why all the spanish, French, Brits, peopele even from Dubai...are investing in Morocco?

Because they know what you don't know about property business opportunities in Morocco.

In any property investment you have to pay tax...

Foreign buyers can buy property in Morocco with less then £30 000 and can resell it with £60 000.

I am not advertising off plan investment at all. I advice people to buy land for development in Morocco. Buy other property not off plan...and wait...you will see many buyers will come to you asking if you want to sell your land or your property with a very good price.

Do not forget that the king of Morocco is removing all the obstacles for investors in Morocco.

Off plan investment is not all property investment...make good research yourself.

There is no proof yet whether the investment in Morocco is good or not. Few foreign people have sold for a profit, except the ones who had inside information.

The important things is that the Morocco government has changed many of the rules which attracted investors in the first place i.e. no tax for rent, 14% VAT, etc. Who knows waht comes next.

A civilised country does not lure investors only to hit them from behind when they do not pay attnetion.

[dogbox]

Lejardindefleur I am told will absorb the sales Tax rise.

HOT PRESS "Governments move goal posts"!!!!! Really, they dont do they, who would have believed it. I thought only Gordon Brown manipualted stealth Taxes

Catara, if we simply dwell on the downsides, we get no where.

Saidia Morocco and some of the other Plan Azure and other high end resorts such as Emarr's Tinja will will become highly sought after by well healed tourists. Saidia afterall will have the largest most modern leisure marina in the Med.

BRAZIL - I looked at Brazil but decided it was years behind Morocco in terms of tourism, more than double the flight time and not centrally planned (unlike Morocco). None of the developments really distinguished itself from the others as a must have commodity unlike the Plan Azure Moroccan developments.

DUBAI - a lesson in over supply, long flights, too hot in summer.

[catara]

Lejardindefleur I am told will absorb the sales Tax rise.

HOT PRESS "Governments move goal posts"!!!!! Really, they dont do they, who would have believed it. I thought only Gordon Brown manipualted stealth Taxes

Saidia Morocco and some of the other Plan Azure and other high end resorts such as Emarr's Tinja will will become highly sought after by well healed tourists. Saidia afterall will have the largest most modern leisure marina in the Med.

Again, we do not know what the future holds.

Some things that we know are the increase of taxes. Besides, we also knmow that prices in Saidia for 2 bedroom apts. are stationary in the last 18 months. This means somebody who bought 18 months ago lost about 6% which could have been acquired by simply leaving the money in the bank.

It is also true that Saidia looks like a nice place from the pictures I saw.

[dogbox]

Catara there is a great photo of the golf courses on Totaly Property - Morocco section - Saidia.

Capital growth I think is non existent as you say. I was very happy to get in early and secure the golf villa I wanted at the lowest price, and note those properties have now all sold out.

6% on the 20% I outlayed would amount to lost interest of a negligible sum.

Still a unique huge playground and in time will be very succesfull. It's the uniqueness and lack of competition that will drive the rentals. Capital growth will come once the place opens fully.

Catara you watch how all the people will suddenly 'discover' Morocco in 2010, thinking they are getting in early! At the moment the majority are robotised and conditioned into the odd view that Bulgaria and Dubai are the places to be.

[catara]

Catara you watch how all the people will suddenly 'discover' Morocco in 2010, thinking they are getting in early! At the moment the majority are robotised and conditioned into the odd view that Bulgaria and Dubai are the places to be.

To be honest with you, I would be inclined to buy for myself in Aethenia Resort (part os Saidia) or Atlas Golf. But I am kind of wondering why should I bother when I can go to Spain for £300-£400 including airfare for 4 persons and villa rental... I shall never be able to travel to Morocco for less than £100/person roundtrip...

[The Soup Dragon]

catara. I don't know where you live, but even flying from rip off Britain you can get a return to Marrakesh for under £100. Its quite a bit cheaper for those flying from budget airline hubs in Europe. (Appreciate you would want to fly direct when with family.)

[catara]

catara. I don't know where you live, but even flying from rip off Britain you can get a return to Marrakesh for under £100. Its quite a bit cheaper for those flying from budget airline hubs in Europe. (Appreciate you would want to fly direct when with family.)

I live in Liverpool and Ryanair/Easyjet do not yet fly to Marrakesh from here. They fly instead to about 16 Spanish destination...

[Sean]

Hi all, its been so long since this overseas forum had a bit of life that I forgot my password.

Dogbox, I think that a lot of investors may have achieved capital growth somewhere else in the world (or somewhere else in Morocco) in the past 18-24 months so its not just about lost interest on your 20%. By the way, have you still not paid the next 20%!?

I agree that Saidia is still "undiscovered" to most people, especially from the point of view of a holiday home buyer. But I feel that the "undiscovered" properties were always being sold at "discovered" prices and once the resort is discovered, the prices will still be where they are now. Only my opinion.

Separately, is it true that the Barcelo hotel are selling off their rooms? If so and if the price is sensible, that could be the best investment at Saidia.

[dogbox]

Sean, see the other thread I've just updated with a comparison.

A Polaris World rep said this to me "it's a trade off between golf and facilities or beach, you cant have both unless your a millionaire"

Saidia provides the missing link then. No trade off for end users, they get masses of facilities and beach and world class marina. Saidia cannot fail to be a resounding sucess given the experiences that can be had all in one site without the need for golfers kids and spouses to travel off site to beaches etc.

A similar PW villa second line golf 15 minutes drive from a beach is £446000 absolute minimum, thats more thyan double Saidia similar villas cost, yet if anything the rents will be higher from Saidia given all the facilities for a broad range of people (not just golfers and gym users).

[Daft Boy]

When all you foreign property speculators finally grow up you will suddenly realise that all assets, particulary overseas, are just liabilities. Meanwhile enjoy the dream.

[dogbox]

When all you foreign property speculators finally grow up you will suddenly realise that all assets, particulary overseas, are just liabilities. Meanwhile enjoy the dream.

Overseas property can be a liability, I think many of us appreciate this, so as with all commerical endeavours it comes down to careful asset selection. Cash alone will never add particularly to your wealth.

[Sean]

Dogbox, when you say things like "Saidia cannot fail to be a resounding sucess.." you lose a bit of credibility.

I could give you a list of things that may lead to such failure but you'd just respond with a longer list made up of the same old stuff so I can't be bothered.

[Jesus of nazareth]

The fact that dogbox has to bang on about Saidia on every Moroccan thread shows to me that he is trying to convince himself as well as everyone else that his investment in Saidia is the best in Morocco. He has a plaster for every sore and when this fails he resorts to pseudo philosophical ramblings. I am not saying Saidia is going to fail, I am saying dogbox is living in his own little world.

[dogbox]

Dogbox, when you say things like "Saidia cannot fail to be a resounding sucess.." you lose a bit of credibility.

I am not a seeker of credibility, I merely enjoy discussing Moroccan property, particularly Saidia.

I am also not a fence sitter that seeks to cover all bases so as to avoid egg on face.

As you say you do not wish to be bothered with producing a list of reasons for failure, but I have considered the following negatives;

Terrorism - home grown, Algerian perhaps with Al Queda involvement

Extremists getting into power

Developer failure / Bankcruptcy

Property over - supply on the development

Increased / unforseen costs such as management cost increases

Rising sea levels

Worldwide property slump

Poor quality property delivered

Low tourist numbers wanting to use the development, leading to low yields

Water resource issues

My villa being set quite far back from the beach and marina

A glut of touristic property for rent throughout the Med and Portugal plus Egypt

So my choice is, stick with more familiar investments, say another commercial property in the UK, or perhaps a French or Portugese property, or add some spice to the mix.

I am not a natural risk taker by any stretch.

I could have waited until after the development was at or near completion, but the reason I chose not to was that I felt I would have limited options at that point. The golf villas have shown as sold out for the last few weeks, could be a developer ruse but I dont think so.

You state the prices did not represent good value. This forum is no doubt used by people agonising over Saidia value comparisons so it would be usefull for anyone to give specific comparisons with say Spain. I gave the example of Polaris World charging more than double for a very similar villa with no beach, no marina and so on.

The argument generally put forward is 'Morocco is not Spain'. I can see why people would therefore automatically assume Moroccan property 'should' be cheaper.

[Sean]

Dogbox, good list and respect for doing it. I wish I had your time!

In your list you highlighted something which was a biggy for me - the golf villas are a long way from the beach and the commercial centre. It is certainly not walkable with small kids. People tend to be lazy on holiday so it will be crucial that the facilities within the VVT8 common area are good enough.

A few more for your list might be:

Will the airlines provide the flights and at what price?

Will the commercial areas be successful and attract the right type of shop?

It is unlikely to become a place where people will live and is financially out of reach of the locals so who will the buyers be in the secondary market?

Will such buyers prefer new off-plan opportunities?

[fws]

Transport shouldn't be a problem. There is to be a bus stop outside the main clubhouse on VVT8 and a taxi drop off zone.

Edited January 16, 2008 by fws

[catara]

It is unlikely to become a place where people will live and is financially out of reach of the locals so who will the buyers be in the secondary market?

Will such buyers prefer new off-plan opportunities?

These buyers might be the same that are buying resales in the Polaris World Murcia's resort. I.e. nobody...

[dogbox]

Sean;

Airlines; I think once Oujda redevelopment is complete with 25 hubs, the low cost carriers will come. I think they expect about 30,000 guests per week into Saidia which should be enough to sustain some airlines although Im not sure what the coverage will be like off season. Presumably less flights.

I it is concievable that the King after having made all this effort with the development, the airport, the new road and losts of development into Saidia tow itself, will then pull out all the stops to ensure low cost carrier prescence even if it means intital sweeteners.

Resales; Even though Im not considering resales myself I would like to comment on this. I can imagine people living there what with so many facilities and the health centre all in the one wonder - land.

Indeed, my freind has purchased a golf villa and is planning to live there for much of the year - she is retired.

I also expect French and Spannish retirees to live here given all thr shops, health facilities and so on.

Residents I think will prefer the more peaceful located property - I would if I were living there, and to be away from the noise and high numbers of prying eyes.

Id like to be closer to the beach but this would have meant spending more - so I think Ive got the balance about right for me.

There will be a bus stop right outside the entrance to the golf village and I suspect biycles might be made available.

Rents per m2 should be higher on the properties close to the beach, but those who will want to spend a little less on thier holiday will Im sure see the distance compromise as worthwhile.

[amoflaherty]

Sean;

Airlines; I think once Oujda redevelopment is complete with 25 hubs, the low cost carriers will come. I think they expect about 30,000 guests per week into Saidia which should be enough to sustain some airlines although Im not sure what the coverage will be like off season. Presumably less flights.

I it is concievable that the King after having made all this effort with the development, the airport, the new road and losts of development into Saidia tow itself, will then pull out all the stops to ensure low cost carrier prescence even if it means intital sweeteners.

Resales; Even though Im not considering resales myself I would like to comment on this. I can imagine people living there what with so many facilities and the health centre all in the one wonder - land.

Indeed, my freind has purchased a golf villa and is planning to live there for much of the year - she is retired.

I also expect French and Spannish retirees to live here given all thr shops, health facilities and so on.

Residents I think will prefer the more peaceful located property - I would if I were living there, and to be away from the noise and high numbers of prying eyes.

Id like to be closer to the beach but this would have meant spending more - so I think Ive got the balance about right for me.

There will be a bus stop right outside the entrance to the golf village and I suspect biycles might be made available.

Rents per m2 should be higher on the properties close to the beach, but those who will want to spend a little less on thier holiday will Im sure see the distance compromise as worthwhile.

We reserved a beach villa (vvt6) after discounting the golf villas (vvt8) as they do look very plain compared to the beach villa design in our view and too far from the beach. If you have to wait for a bus its now worth it as I would view this as too much of an inconvenience on my holidays, we did a viewing trip and the development is massive so if you are not in the centre its a long walk.

In the end we didn't go through with it and I still believe we made the right choice. We were looking for holiday home (not investment) I think this is the kind of place that you would go on holidays once or twice max (probably stay in 5* hotel as part of package) and the novelty would wear off. Sadia feels too isolated, its big and doesn't really have a soul. We also believed re-sale would be a problem if we tired of it which we felt we would as a family holiday destination. In comparison we bought a 4 bed villa in France on a golf course in Bezier a couple of years back really as an investment as its rented out 6 months a year, its 15 mins drive to beach. We have gone nearly every year as there is so much to do and see in the surrounding areas...which is then worth the 15min drive to beach. Airlines fly all year round to France, I think Oujda flights will be scarce off-season if non-existent and renting will have lots of competition from hotels/packages which will be cheap and aimed at golfers. We are off to Tunisia in Feb - half board in 5* hotel for £230 pp incl flights and transport.

We are now looking in spain/france/portugal as alternative for our holiday home as prices are coming down and talking to agents you can get 20% off prices compared to last year, we may even hold off until 2009 to buy as that was when our VVT6 villa would have been ready anyhow.

[Jesus of nazareth]

I agree, I don't think many people will retire to Saidia, its too isolated.

On the other hand if you were in the Tangier area and you wanted to get out of your resort then here are some examples of things to do.

Tangier Kasbah

The Kasbah, which is the highest point in the city, is located within the medina but isolated by its walls. The gate opens onto a marble courtyard that leads to the Dar el-Makhzem, which was the former Sultan’s palace, built in the 17th century with carved wood ceiling. Today it is the Kasbah Museums, which includes the Museum of Moroccan Art and the Museum of Antiquities, and an archaeological collection with exhibits primarily from Volubilis. Don’t forget to visit the Sultan’s gardens, as well.

Medina of Tangier

As any Moroccan town, the medina (old quarters) is almost a mandatory visit if you are interested in feeling "the life" of the city and being close to the locals (and other tourists too, for better or for worse). Perhaps not very "traditional", with much less of the "medieval" environment of other historical cities of Morocco, some of their buildings reminiscent of South Spain, others with a colonial look. Nevertheless, probably very exotic to the eyes of someone who has never been to non-western town before.

Visit the Museum of Moroccan Arts (Kasbah Museum)

Visit Hercules Cave

Visit Tangier Beach

Visit Tangier American Legion Museum http://www.legation.org/

Visit Terrasse des Paresseux

Visit St Andrew' church

Visiting an original Hamman

TanJAZZ : Tangier's celebration for JAZZ !

Every single year Tangier celebrates Jazz music by hosting a five day long festival with a heavy schedule of pure delectation TANJAZZ!

http://www.tanjazz.com/

Visit the beautiful coastal town of Asilah, it has an international arts festival every year.

Visit the new marina when built in the bay of Tangier

Visit Port Lixus

I can see cabin fever setting in for those who retire to Saidia, especially if your villa is a bus ride away from the beach.

Edited January 17, 2008 by Jesus of nazareth