Bash The Rich Demonstration

[The Bachelor of Arts]

Not quite fudge. It is Western taxpayers money, but it tends to go 50/50 Western companies/local community. For instance, we have to buy certain equipment (eg metal detectors) that aren't made locally. That said, we are contracually bound to hire as many locals as we can (it tends to depend on skill levels and education), buy food, stores, etc locally as the other aim is to put wealth into the local economy at the local level. We also have to show capacity building and replacement of Westerners with locals as they gain managerial experience.

You have to be extremely careful with this however. To much Western cash creates wage inflation locally and people not working for NGO's or supporting companies can soon find things getting expensive. Likewise, the World Food Programme has in the past caused huge problems by blindly donating food......this causes the cost of local produce to fall, which means less food grown locally and more reliance on WFP.

The whole situation is very complex to manage and although well intentioned, we can end up making things worse for a community in the long run if we are not careful. There is such pressure to 'do something' when we see people suffering on telly, we tend to run in blindly forgetting the medium term consequences of our actions.

Oh well, the best laid plans of mice and men.

[ukdaasfan]

The landmines may have been made by Russia but the dont by any means have cornered the market in arms manufacture. Wars always have been about countries sending its working classes in to kill each other in its imperialistic escapades. And I am not a communist thanks.

I think the arms industry is the biggest sector of the American economy and a major part of Britains.

I can remember a British company selling a componants for supergun to Saddams Iraq.

Afica, no never been there.

What company is paying to have mines removed? really I would like to know.

Africa is being kept down partly by the IMF loans that it is being forced to pay.

Or are you putting the cart before the horse, is it because of poverty, lack of any education or healthcare due to being forced to pay off loans for things they never benefited from in the first place.

Forced in a hopeless, futile position with no future that they cannot escape from that they have no personal and social responsibility.

In Victorian times, the poor were considered to be so because of drink, alchohol.

The reason they are poor is because they drink, it never occurred to them the reason they drink is because they

have a shit life that they are trapped into and so turn to drink.

Actually Bad Governance and Corruption are the main reasons Africa is in a the sh*t's.

I on the other had have been adn worked quite extensively in Africa.

Adn they were quite honestly some of the laziest most corrrupt peoplel I have ever met.

In countries like Nigeria and Mali the demands are constant, from Police to Officials.

After a few years of doing projects out there I lost all sympathy for them, people get the government they deserve it has been stated. I always throught this was rubbish. However, travelling to Africa, Middle East and Asia has made me think diffrently.

[Fudge]

What alternative system do you propose?

Anarchism or libertarian socialism

[Fudge]

What wrong with selling insurance. Quite important stuff insurance..... If you've ever been hurt at work you'd know how importatn the comapnies insurance policy. If you've ever been ill abroad, been mugged, burgled.....

Sounds Ok to me.

I found insurance to be great, until you have to claim.

If employers took health and safety seriously and you had decent healthcare, if you had a fairer society you wouldnt have to worry about being mugged or burgled. By taking out insurance you are trying to protect yourself against

the many pitfalls of a deeply flawed system.

Where was Northern Rocks insurance? didnt they take out any?

[dogbox]

libertarian socialism

What is the system like?

Any downside?

[AteMoose]

I get around 245 - 255... how about you?

mine was 242 when i last checked!

[Fudge]

Actually Bad Governance and Corruption are the main reasons Africa is in a the sh*t's.

I on the other had have been adn worked quite extensively in Africa.

Adn they were quite honestly some of the laziest most corrrupt peoplel I have ever met.

In countries like Nigeria and Mali the demands are constant, from Police to Officials.

After a few years of doing projects out there I lost all sympathy for them, people get the government they deserve it has been stated. I always throught this was rubbish. However, travelling to Africa, Middle East and Asia has made me think diffrently.

You cannot take a nation like Africa where the vast majority has been exploited and oppressed down through out history and then say there you go, now make something of yourselves, its going to take generations.

What if you did a trading places type experiment?, take a African baby out of a ghetto and give him to be brought up by David Camerons family. Goes to all the best schools, Eton then with the family connections a job as a diplomat. Could the boy do it? Probably a damn sight better than the twats we got now.

Take David Camerons son/daughter and put him to be brought up with the African family. How would he/she

fare? any better than the millions of others, I doubt it very much.

[Fudge]

What is the system like?

Any downside?

It worked very well during the Spanish revolution considering they were also fighting a war at the time.

The downside is the bosses, capitalists and landlords will have to work for a living.

[Lone_Twin]

You cannot take a nation like Africa where the vast majority has been exploited and oppressed down through out history and then say there you go, now make something of yourselves, its going to take generations.

What if you did a trading places type experiment?, take a African baby out of a ghetto and give him to be brought up by David Camerons family. Goes to all the best schools, Eton then with the family connections a job as a diplomat. Could the boy do it? Probably a damn sight better than the twats we got now.

Take David Camerons son/daughter and put him to be brought up with the African family. How would he/she

fare? any better than the millions of others, I doubt it very much.

Yes taking the "nation" of Africa anywhere is going to be a toughie.

.

Re. Your trading places example it has been done. With identical twins who were seperately adopted.

On average the educational, social and monetary position of the offspring gravitates towards the biological parents no matter what background of the adopters. Nature really matters.

.

How did the march go? Club the rich to death with a sackful of STR money?

.

ST

[Fudge]

Yes taking the "nation" of Africa anywhere is going to be a toughie.

.

Re. Your trading places example it has been done. With identical twins who were seperately adopted.

On average the educational, social and monetary position of the offspring gravitates towards the biological parents no matter what background of the adopters. Nature really matters.

.

How did the march go? Club the rich to death with a sackful of STR money?

.

ST

OK the continent of Africa then.

Can you point me in the right direction for the trading places claim?

Yes the march was considered a cautious success, I am not letting the rich any where near my STR money, thats my fighting fund.

[RichB]

Yes the march was considered a cautious success, I am not letting the rich any where near my STR money, thats my fighting fund.

Biscuit tin or mattress?

[ukdaasfan]

I found insurance to be great, until you have to claim.

If employers took health and safety seriously and you had decent healthcare, if you had a fairer society you wouldnt have to worry about being mugged or burgled. By taking out insurance you are trying to protect yourself against

the many pitfalls of a deeply flawed system.

Where was Northern Rocks insurance? didnt they take out any?

1) Northern Rock is part of a regulated system, this insurance that saving upto a ceratin amount are protected. That would be there insurance.

2) Health and Safety will never irradicate accident, because accidents alway happen. I got electricuted by a faulty board once, the insurance at the company compensated without a whimper.

3) I don't know whihc companies you work for but all the firms I have worked for in the last 10 years have taken haleth and safteyl very seriously, probabaly to seriously to a point where it makes it exceptionally difficult to do some jobs at all.

4) I don't hink some mugger and thiefs are all doing because they don't feel society is unfair. Crime is to complex a problem just to take to that. Although ceratinly it doe impact. I have no problem with a fair society, I jsut get ******ed off all the time being told that it's my fault that these problems exist and that you want me to pay for it. Sod you I worked my way out of the shit, I didn't do to help those that didn't

5) All system are flawed. Anarchism would not lead to your fairer society. Out or anarchy there will arise someone who wanats control and eventaully one of them will succeed. Without a centralised why to organise or agitate this core will almost certainly gain control of some or all of the anarchist state. So you either end up with Totaliarism, or worst a hegemony of 'robber barons' all protecting there thiefdoms.

[Fudge]

Biscuit tin or mattress?

I have taken a lot of good advice from people on this website and got a bit here and a bit there.

The worrying thing for me is that I have to keep dipping into it, with the intention of replacing it later.

It has become a form of MEW.

[mfp123]

Yes taking the "nation" of Africa anywhere is going to be a toughie.

.

Re. Your trading places example it has been done. With identical twins who were seperately adopted.

On average the educational, social and monetary position of the offspring gravitates towards the biological parents no matter what background of the adopters. Nature really matters.

.

How did the march go? Club the rich to death with a sackful of STR money?

.

ST

how you are brought up has a far bigger determination of who you are rather than your biology. if you took 4 identical children and had 1 brought up in france, 1 in japan, 1 in africa and 1 in south america, they would all be assimilated into their respective country.

their personalities, their attitudes, they way they talk, they way they think, and they way they do things would be completely different, and would be reflective of their native country/parents who brought them up.

Edited November 5, 2007 by mfp123

[BTLlivingthedream]

I have taken a lot of good advice from people on this website and got a bit here and a bit there.

The worrying thing for me is that I have to keep dipping into it, with the intention of replacing it later.

It has become a form of MEW.

It's strange that in the face of global economic turmoil, the destruction of the environment, global exploitation and the commodification of nearly all aspects of life, the anarchist has to justify his system...We all have to think 'beyond capitalism' cos whether we like it or not, the system is broke.

[RichB]

I have taken a lot of good advice from people on this website and got a bit here and a bit there.

The worrying thing for me is that I have to keep dipping into it, with the intention of replacing it later.

It has become a form of MEW.

Aye, I know the feeling... got my eye on a 4 litre Audi on ebay...

Seriously tho, I do hope you haven't given your hard earned to any financial parasites to look after.

[ukdaasfan]

It worked very well during the Spanish revolution considering they were also fighting a war at the time.

The downside is the bosses, capitalists and landlords will have to work for a living.

You have an interesting take on the Spanish Revolution.

One of the reason Franco was able to win was because the anarchist?coomunist/Socailist movement spent most of hit's time in fighting with the other disparate 'allies'. They were part of a mismashed coalition which lacked order, organisation and for the later part of the war any real tactical direction

Which particular Nanarchist group would you say were the most effective : the CNT, FAI or are you more Majueres Libres. What exactly did it do well ?

And what bout all the other groups, the Communists controlled the production and food resource with various other socilaists and of course lets not forget the Basques

While Franco exercised total control over his troops, the areas hw controlled and the resources there-in.

Generally the organistaion of the Popoular Front side in the spanish civil war was a collection of failed policitacl experiments, that perpetuated the suffering of the spanish people throughout the war well into the 20th Century.

[dogbox]

It worked very well during the Spanish revolution considering they were also fighting a war at the time.

The downside is the bosses, capitalists and landlords will have to work for a living.

What about this downside;

Why will the curry house owner cook me a Dhansak at 11pm unless he has the profit motive?

Presumably your re - distributive methods would have him hand over a large chunk of his profit to those that do not work as hard as he.

RISK - when I established my own business I took a big risk, indeed my children could have lost out big time if it had not worker out. Why would I bother to take such a risk (and in the process create jobs and wealth) unless thier was an appropriate reward?

If people see no point in taking risk, less and less gets done. Would you risk your STR fund on a business venture only to then have the state knock at your door with the collection bowl?

[Fudge]

Aye, I know the feeling... got my eye on a 4 litre Audi on ebay...

Seriously tho, I do hope you haven't given your hard earned to any financial parasites to look after.

No, thanks for your concern.

[ukdaasfan]

No, thanks for your concern.

So what have you dione with it ?

I'm intrigued....if you think this system is so wrong I would have thought that pretty much all existing finacnial vehicles would be closed to you.

[Fudge]

You have an interesting take on the Spanish Revolution.

One of the reason Franco was able to win was because the anarchist?coomunist/Socailist movement spent most of hit's time in fighting with the other disparate 'allies'. They were part of a mismashed coalition which lacked order, organisation and for the later part of the war any real tactical direction

Which particular Nanarchist group would you say were the most effective : the CNT, FAI or are you more Majueres Libres. What exactly did it do well ?

And what bout all the other groups, the Communists controlled the production and food resource with various other socilaists and of course lets not forget the Basques

While Franco exercised total control over his troops, the areas hw controlled and the resources there-in.

Generally the organistaion of the Popoular Front side in the spanish civil war was a collection of failed policitacl experiments, that perpetuated the suffering of the spanish people throughout the war well into the 20th Century.

Your take on it suprisingly fits with your aim of discrediting it.

The Communists and Anarchists were obviously also fighting each other as well as Franco due to their differing ideologies. The anarcho-syndicalists CNT FAI. Not only were the anarchists a very effective fighting force

despite their scarce resources. But it is not the war but how they were organised, with farming, schools, workplaces, hospitals and factories by workers self management, federalism and mutual aid.

[Fudge]

What about this downside;

Why will the curry house owner cook me a Dhansak at 11pm unless he has the profit motive?

Presumably your re - distributive methods would have him hand over a large chunk of his profit to those that do not work as hard as he.

RISK - when I established my own business I took a big risk, indeed my children could have lost out big time if it had not worker out. Why would I bother to take such a risk (and in the process create jobs and wealth) unless thier was an appropriate reward?

If people see no point in taking risk, less and less gets done. Would you risk your STR fund on a business venture only to then have the state knock at your door with the collection bowl?

He will cook you a Dhansak at 11pm because you will fix his car for work or teach his kids to swim, whatever it is that you do.

But why should it be a risk? It is only a risk under a capitalist system. If what you intended to do was useful for enough people then you should be able to do it, it doesnt make sense it actually prevents people from doing work they may actually enjoy and enriching other people lives, if the venture doesnt work you should be punished by losing your house.

[Fudge]

So what have you dione with it ?

I'm intrigued....if you think this system is so wrong I would have thought that pretty much all existing finacnial vehicles would be closed to you.

I cant say can I.

[dogbox]

organised, with farming, schools, workplaces, hospitals and factories by workers self management, federalism and mutual aid.

Did you know the founding communities of what was to become the USA were very much based on your model?

The Puritans and Quakers in particular. A hugely dissproportionate number of major 'economic engine' firms and patents were established by the origibal pilgrims and thier direct descentants, but thier 'socialist' enterprises became corrupted in recent times.

I'm reading abook called 'The Puritan Gift' about how these idlystic communities and in particular thier business's many of which went onto be the global 'engine' companies, became corrupted over time.

THE AUTHORS SUGGEST THIS IS DUE TO THE NEEDS OF SHAREHOLDERS, FORMELY LAST IN THE QUEUE, OVERNIGHT BECOMMING FIRST IN THE QUEUE. The great American co's used to place shareholders after Salaries, Taxes, Loans, supplies.

The authors are calling for a return to these Puritan ideals where a company was a means to an end, where the core purpose of these great companies was to provide for the community and to create 'heaven on earth'.

It goes on to argue that the corruption of these great engines and thier communities was in large part due to the rise of the business school, where all the old virtues of thrift, working for the good of others, equality where the bosses earned not much more than workers, and promoting from within those who knew the firm inside out were tossed asside by academics who thought management was ALL ABOUT THE BOTTOM LINE (this corruption began in about 1910).

Seriously I think you would find many answers in this book.

The authors are dismayed that the great companies such as GE once run by people who had worked there since leaving school, were suddenly being run by people with an MBA certificate that apparantly meant they could run any busines as long as they concentrated solely on shareholder value!

[jackalope]

He will cook you a Dhansak at 11pm because you will fix his car for work or teach his kids to swim, whatever it is that you do.

But why should it be a risk? It is only a risk under a capitalist system. If what you intended to do was useful for enough people then you should be able to do it, it doesnt make sense it actually prevents people from doing work they may actually enjoy and enriching other people lives, if the venture doesnt work you should be punished by losing your house.

What if his car works fine and his kids have gills? How am I going to get my Dhansak? Let's have some praxis, comrade.

Also, will we be allowed to own houses in Fudgistan? Surely, Libertarian Socialism would preclude any economically significant private property rights?